The Pope?

[ml1957]

I agree That the Pope is not a Dictator, and I also understand you think his job is to make sure the Church adheres to the teachings of Chrst. My issue is that the Pope was not given the job,and if he was, he is not doing it.

After Jesus arose to return to Heaven, and the Apostles died,man was left with the teachings of Christ. The Old Testament was given to us as a part of History to understand God a little better.
The New Testament tells us of the New Covenant made for all of us both Jews and gentiles.
As Christians we are to study and learn for ourselves how to be a Christian. You must be born again to become a Christian.

As an example. If you had never had any exposure to God or a religon and were given the Bible, you would have everything you need to learn of Jesus and God… understand why God became man and lived on Earth to die so that we might live…and understand what to do to be pleasing to God. Jesus makes it very clear that we are to do the will of the Father,and not to add or to take away from his plan of salvation.
After reading the New Testament you would seek to find a place where people were worshiping God the way God commands us to. A place that worships like the Church of the New Testament did 2000 years ago. We read of those congregations ( Christians) in Acts, Ephusus etc.
If you walked into a Catholic church and looked around,sat down and listened to what was being said,you would know instantantly that this place is not where the Christians you read about would meet.
I have no doubt that you would meet some very nice,loving,caring deeply faithful people that call themselves Catholics.

Before you start ripping me please understand that I am not implying to anyone that Catholics are bad people. Most of the people here on this Forum are better people than I am,that live a life with less sin than I have,and love God more than I do. I am however convinced that the New Testament Church is not Catholic.
Until i study and learn otherwise I am faithful to what I beleive. i have a lot to learn. If I learn that my worship to God earlier today was not what God intended,and that I should have been at a Catholic church on Saturday, I will make the change.
You gotta give me that at least.

And I also beleive the Pope is not just a guy on TV. I now understand that Catholics realy beleive he is taking the place of Peter. I am sure he is a great guy,and beleives he is here to do this job.
I compare it to someone that commits a crime,and after being caught says he did not know about that law he just broke.
The answer he will hear from the Judge (god) is that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

[Cairisti]

ml1957:

a place where people were worshiping God the way God commands us to. A place that worships like the Church of the New Testament did 2000 years ago. We read of those congregations ( Christians) in Acts, Ephusus etc.
If you walked into a Catholic church and looked around,sat down and listened to what was being said,you would know instantantly that this place is not where the Christians you read about would meet.

Sorry ML, but if you read some of the early writers of the Church, particulary Justin Martyer (in “the Four Witnessess”), and attended a Catholic Mass, you would find that the Mass follows worship as the early Christians did. The early Church didn’t worship like Baptists or Methodists. They worshipped like the Catholic Church. That’s one of the wonderous things about attending either a Catholic Mass (Eastern or Western) - you get the feel of the ancient form of worship that the Apostiles had. So, I recommend you go to a Mass and see for yourself before you judge that the Mass isn’t what early Christians would recognize, for surely they would.

 

[ml1957]

I have been to a mass. All of the chanting…the on your knees…up again…beads…smoke…chanting… candles…etc. All yu get is a handbook.

It reminds me more of idol worshiping. As an example. I remember my Great Grandparents having a statue on their cars dash.

You don’t see many of these saints inside cars anymore. I was never sure if that statue prevented an accident,or was there in case you didn’t make it.

If John Paul( the one who just recently died) is made a saint…who will decide it,what will he be the saint of…and will there be a statue of him? Will it have a trademark?

 

[mrS4ntA]

ml1957:

After Jesus arose to return to Heaven, and the Apostles died,man was left with the teachings of Christ. The Old Testament was given to us as a part of History to understand God a little better.
The New Testament tells us of the New Covenant made for all of us both Jews and gentiles.
As Christians we are to study and learn for ourselves how to be a Christian. You must be born again to become a Christian.

As an example. If you had never had any exposure to God or a religon and were given the Bible, you would have everything you need to learn of Jesus and God… understand why God became man and lived on Earth to die so that we might live…and understand what to do to be pleasing to God. Jesus makes it very clear that we are to do the will of the Father,and not to add or to take away from his plan of salvation.

That does not only make sense, it is not true from historical perspective. The Bible was not canonised and compiled to what it is today centuries after the death of St John. Further, even after the Sacred Scripture was fully done, canonised and everything, for 1500 years or so, not only were there only few literate people, before the invention of printing press books and manuscripts such as the Scriptures were copied by hand and were extremely valuable. One copy could be worth a large field in itself. As the rich was always the minority in every society, it was only recently that every person has the ability to financially own a copy of the Sacred Scripture. It was not always the norm. Apostolic teachings have always been the source of passing down the teaching of Christ, and this teaching, of course, included the teaching of the Scripture.

Further, it does not make sense that Christ would leave us nothing after the death of His last apostle, but only for us to study them. That not only leaves the Church’s model as a stagnant statue (the Church’s living and breathing like a seed growing into a tree), it does not explain how the remaining eleven chose someone among them to replace the office of Judas the betrayer which can only be made sense in some sort of apostolic succession, after all.

 

[mrS4ntA]

ml1957:

I have been to a mass. All of the chanting…the on your knees…up again…beads…smoke…chanting… candles…etc. All yu get is a handbook.

It reminds me more of idol worshiping. As an example. I remember my Great Grandparents having a statue on their cars dash.

You don’t see many of these saints inside cars anymore. I was never sure if that statue prevented an accident,or was there in case you didn’t make it.

If John Paul( the one who just recently died) is made a saint…who will decide it,what will he be the saint of…and will there be a statue of him? Will it have a trademark?

We Catholics worship with our whole body and attitude, hence the use of sacramentals object. I don;t expect you to understand this at first glance/experience, but dig deeper. Surely you don;t expect that the point of the Mass is the use of the objects themselves?

 

[ml1957]

It is difficult to discuss anything when referenes to history of the church are mixed with idolitry. Where in the Gospels are the mass?

I know it’s those pesky Gospels again…but it is the entire basis of the church that was established at the death of Christ.Surely you don’t think that the Church was left to Peter and built on a piece of holy rock? Surely you don’t think Peter passed this rock down to someone he chose etc.etc. Is the Vatican on the rock?
If it is then the last pope built a 20 million dollar hotel on it. holy water on tap?
Please I implore you. READ the book of ACTS. Tell me when you get to the part about the mass. If there was one Jesus surely would have been there.

 

[Milliardo]

My issue is that the Pope was not given the job…

Seems to be more of a pesonal issue then.

As Christians we are to study and learn for ourselves how to be a Christian.

Why do you have a pastor then?

If you had never had any exposure to God or a religon and were given the Bible, you would have everything you need to learn of Jesus and God.

Everything? There are 2 points here that you said: one, if one never had any exposure… Tell me, have you debated with a Muslim before? I have with a number of them. They use the Bible to dsiprove Christianity. So it does not necessarily mean that one who reads the Bible will automatically understand it, or be convinced about Christianity.

After reading the New Testament you would seek to find a place where people were worshiping God the way God commands us to. A place that worships like the Church of the New Testament did 2000 years ago. We read of those congregations ( Christians) in Acts, Ephusus etc.

Yes, actually quite a lot of the converts from Protestantism discovered the Catholic Church that way, which is amazing, isn’t it?

If you walked into a Catholic church and looked around,sat down and listened to what was being said,you would know instantantly that this place is not where the Christians you read about would meet.

Wow. I wonder how the converts I’m talking about got another impression though. And further, do you know the early Church Fathers? Have you read how they describe how they worship? Do you think they worship as, say, Baptists do? Or “non-denominationals” do?

i have a lot to learn. If I learn that my worship to God earlier today was not what God intended,and that I should have been at a Catholic church on Saturday, I will make the change.
You gotta give me that at least.

We will. That’s what we’re here for.

 

[ml1957]

True or False?

If a person reads the New Testament ,beleives,repents,and is baptized, his sins are forgiven,and he is a diciple of Christ.

If you answer true…Stop… step away from the computer.

This is God’s plan of salvation and a promise of heaven with him.
Go forth and preach the gosple to every man.

Please do not discredit this simple pure plan that was createn by God and what Christ Jesus died for. We can accept the truth or reject it.
I am concerned that Catholics are all about everything BUT this.
The golden calves are not what Jesus was talking about

 

[deb1]

ml1957:

I know it’s those pesky Gospels again

Just for the record, Catholics do read the bible, including the Gospels. I thought maybe you needed to hear that though, as you referred to the Gospels as pesky indicating that we find the bible troubling. which we don’t.

 

[deb1]

ml1957:

I have been to a mass. All of the chanting…the on your knees…up again…beads…smoke…chanting… candles…etc. All yu get is a handbook.

It reminds me more of idol worshiping. As an example. I remember my Great Grandparents having a statue on their cars dash.

You don’t see many of these saints inside cars anymore. I was never sure if that statue prevented an accident,or was there in case you didn’t make it.

If John Paul( the one who just recently died) is made a saint…who will decide it,what will he be the saint of…and will there be a statue of him? Will it have a trademark?

One of the beauties of the catholic church is that God can reach different layers of you subconscious.Yes, to a protestant it seems odd, but why don’t you look into the history and meaning of the “beads, smoke and the chanting” before you condemn it.

 

[ml1957]

Then read the Gospels. Where is the Catholic church?

Show me one word about beads and a ring to kiss.

 

[ml1957]

Who said I am a protestant?

I am a Christian. Please address me for what I am, not what you want me to be.

 

[deb1]

ml1957:

Who said I am a protestant?

I am a Christian. Please address me for what I am, not what you want me to be.

I am sorry that I have offended you. What denomination do you belong to? Perhaps you said so in an earlier post and I apologize again for not remembering. I would like to say that my calling you a Protestant had nothing to do with what I want you to be. Why would I want you to be a Protestant-or even care? I refer to any non Catholic Christian as Protestant. There isn’t anything wrong with the term.

 

[Genesis315]

ml1957:

Who said I am a protestant?

I am a Christian. Please address me for what I am, not what you want me to be.

We’re all Christians But in order to specify our doctrinal differences, we are Catholic and your theology places you under the label of Protestant. Yes, labels stink . There should only be one catholic (universal) Church. The fact is, there isn’t. Take that up with the original Protestants.

 

[EA_Man]

ml1957:

True or False?

If a person reads the New Testament ,beleives,repents,and is baptized, his sins are forgiven,and he is a diciple of Christ.

True. Actually the part about reading the NT is not a requirement for salvation, although all Christians will read the OT and NT provided they can get a Bible. Also Baptism in my view is an outward confession of an inward truth, not a requirement for salvation.

Luke 23:39-43

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”

But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” (recognition of Jesus as God and himself as a sinner in need of salvation)

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (acknowledgement that only Jesus can save him)

Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” (forgiveness)

Did this thief attend Mass?
Did he get baptised?
Did he receive communion?
Was he saved?

The answers are: no, no, no, and yes, Praise God!

 

[kamz]

geesh, you don’t get banned because your not Catholic you get banned for using foul, hurtful words so you can certainly prevent being banned, second, why do you ML1957 always answer a question with another question, so many people have asked you questions and you refuse to answer, what are you hiding?

 

[Genesis315]

EA_Man:

Did this thief attend Mass?
Did he get baptised?
Did he receive communion?
Was he saved?

The answers are: no, no, no, and yes, Praise God!

He would fall under the invincible ignorance umbrella. If he was able to be baptized, attend Mass, and receive communion, he would have.

 

[kamz]

ByzCath:

I have a question for you, if you can answer it then I will answer your question.

How can anyone who reads the Bible (God’s inspired word) come up with which books should be in the Bible?

ML1957, please answer ByzCath’s question, why do only you get to ask the questions

 

[kamz]

jimmy:

Where does Christ teach that the bible alone is the authority? Where do any of his apostles teach that scripture is the sole authority? I will gaurantee that you will never find this.

ML1957, Can you answer this please???

 

[mrS4ntA]

ml1957:

It is difficult to discuss anything when referenes to history of the church are mixed with idolitry. Where in the Gospels are the mass?

I know it’s those pesky Gospels again…but it is the entire basis of the church that was established at the death of Christ.Surely you don’t think that the Church was left to Peter and built on a piece of holy rock? Surely you don’t think Peter passed this rock down to someone he chose etc.etc. Is the Vatican on the rock?
If it is then the last pope built a 20 million dollar hotel on it. holy water on tap?
Please I implore you. READ the book of ACTS. Tell me when you get to the part about the mass. If there was one Jesus surely would have been there.

Jesus commanded His disciples to “go forth and teach all nations,” not to “go forth and write about me.” The Sacred Scripture, which we revere so much (if you notice it at the Pope’s funeral Mass, the book of the Gospels were put on top of his casket, and another was processed into and incensed prior to being read to the public, as is the norm), is a tool that the Church used, it derived from the Sacred and apostolic Tradition, handed down from the apostles which is then put into writing and finally cannonised.

“The Rock” is St Peter and his apostolic authority handed down to his successors, not a physical rock.

The Book of Acts does mention a lot about “the breaking of the bread,” “partaking in the flesh and blood of Christ” etc.

Again, I get the impression taht your model of the Church is stagnant and still like a statue instead of a breathing, living seed that grows. Following your logic, cars and the internet is not mentioned in the Gospels, so we are not supposed to use them, especially for worship (walk to your church people!) The modern era is nothing like the the times of the apostles, are we supposed to reverse civilisation and live exactly like them?