The Pope?

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Milliardo:
No, I am not inferring that, but then you seem to take Paul’s words against Jesus’ words, and not take them as a harmony. Correct?
Error compounding error.

Scripture does not contradict itself. All the words in the Bible are from God recorded through human agents.

I’m not taking Paul’s “over” Jesus’.
I’m using something Paul wrote through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to illuminate a point I was making about something Jesus did.

Show me my error.
 
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Genesis315:
Hahaha, well, that post of mine did sound like something the grand inquisitor would say.😛

We all agree we a re saved by grace, we just differ on how that grace comes to us.🙂 So to a Catholic, rejecting the sacraments is rejecting grace. I think we can both agree that in general rejecting God’s grace is a big no-no.
Amen
 
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EA_Man:
We were never encouraged to read the Bible in any of the parishes I attended.
No offense, but were you sleeping or day dreaming during the Masses, or what? The first half of the Mass is the Liturgy of the Word and it’s all about the Scripture. Attend Mass regularly, and within three years you’d have had the Bible read to you cover to cover.
None of the Catholic churches I’ve ever attended has had a Bible study.
Too bad, mine does.
I have come to the conclusion that salvation is not contingent on membership in a particular denomination.
“Whoever rejects you reject Me, and whoever rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”
 
The Bible is inerrant, not infallible. To be infallible implies an active authority that continues to teach actively. The Bible is in printed words. The words are inerrant, but we do need an infallible authority to confer the inerrant words to us.
 
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EA_Man:
I never said that they [sacraments] are worthless.

I said that do not confer salvation, in my opinion.
Then you have a Catholic view. Most fundamentalist-type Protestants do not believe in Sacraments at all; they believe that they are completely worthless.

And Catholics do not believe that Sacraments confer salvation; we believe that they confer *grace *to aid us in our walk. Big difference.
 
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EA_Man:
Well it’s good to meet some Catholics that do read the Bible.
I was raised Catholic in Rhode Island, and now live in Massachusetts.

We were never encouraged to read the Bible in any of the parishes I attended. My wife’s family is Catholic, none of them read the Bible. My mother-in-law believes in reincaranation. None of the Catholic churches I’ve ever attended has had a Bible study. The priest in my wife’s church (RCC) is constantly harping about attendance. The primary theme of his Easter morning homily was on how many people attended Holy Thursday, Good Friday, etc…services - give me a break.

I had to go to “Protestant” churches to attend Bible studies and continue to do so.

I have come to the conclusion that salvation is not contingent on membership in a particular denomination. I consider myself a Christian. I’ve long stopped being a Roman Catholic. I have one good friend that is a “born again” Catholic (he was an unbeliever that was attending a Catholic church) and he is the only Catholic I’ve known that speaks openly about what Jesus Christ has done in his life. Maybe Catholics in this part of the country are just more reserved. Maybe they like their worship to be quiet and reverential. My preference is for a more enthusiastic style of worship.

This is my experience. If you find that you are drawn closer to Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church - more power to you. I still have a problem with some of the doctrines of the RCC. Just as I have a issues with Calvinism.
Gazillions of issues in this post – but this is a thread about the Pope, so I’ll resist. Have you experienced Catholic worship in a Catholic Charismatic group? Not my dish of tea, but I understand these are on-fire, burning-with-the-love-of-God, Spirit-filled events.
 
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EA_Man:
My contention is twofold; the first is that infallibility cannot be reasonably maintained from a Biblical or historical standpoint.
There have only been two declarations by the Pope infallibly. You see, it isn’t everything that he says that is infallibly. The Pope must declare that he is speaking “ex cathedra”, that is, from the Chair of Peter for it to be infallible. Hope this helps.

Yours in Christ.
 
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ml1957:
I can’t get past the whole Pope thing. The Pope is not Peter. Who told Peter to appoint another Peter when Peter died?
As I pointed out in my previous post, you also do not find “Bible” in the scripture. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Neither do you find Trinity; you do believe in the Trinity don’t you?

You want to discuss the Bible? Ok; you must remember that it is the Catholic Church which delivered the Gospels and the whole New Testament to you. It is the Catholic Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit which declared which books should be in the New Testament, gathered them together, and preserved them, undefiled, down through the ages. If it were not for the Catholic Church, you would not have the New Testament. If you are willing to do a little homework, you will find this out. You will need to start with prayer. Pray the Holy Spirit to guide you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Now, let’s start at the beginning. First Assignment: When, where and by whom was the content of the New Testament defined. Give locations and dates. (HINT: (search for New Testament Canon). Please cite your sources and references.

May the love of God, the peace of Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
 
I know I’m jumping in late on this conversation. Why is there a Pope? At any given point in the Church’s history we have someone to lead us. I don’t think that is a controversial issue, because any non-denominational church has a reverend or a pastor to lead and if it didn’t it wouldn’t be much of a congregation. The Catholic Church is simple a very large Church, and it needs a bit of organization to serve its 1.1 Billiom members and help spead the good news.

And we have traditions, that may seem different to many Chrisitans who have not found the Truth of the Church yet, but our traditions are no different then a non-Catholic Sunday Chirstian Rock band service or having Bible Studies on Wednesday evenings.

So one can ask why one needs a Pope, but I could just ask the same question why would anyone need to go to Bible Study or listen to a Christian Rock Band and learn from others when a person can just pick up the Bible himself if he wished?
 
Why was ML1957 suspended? I just read through all his 27 posts and really couldn’t find anything bad, yes, he is a little huffy and frustrated but I don’t think he did anything wrong either, he wasn’t calling anyone dirty names etc. he was just asking questions and I was really interested in having him finally answer some of Our questions and boom, he is suspended? How can we help people understand the Catholic faith if they get suspended? I’ve seen alot worse and none of his questions were that bad, he just could not grasp the Pope and he at least was honest that he just didn’t get it, I know my husbands Lutheran family feel that way too, it just does not make any sense to them. I wish he would not have been suspended, a warning would probably have done, just my opinion. 🙂
 
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EA_Man:
I never said that they are worthless.

I said that do not confer salvation, in my opinion.
The bolded words - that’s your problem - your opinion matters more than Jesus’.

Too bad you were poorly taught - Jesus Himself said, (Jn 3:5-8) " I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit" (Baptism).

So, in your opinion Baptism does not confer grace? The sacraments DO confer grace, it’s our primary and normative means of grace for salvation. The thief on the cross does not fall into this category - his would be a baptism of desire.

It would say much more if you would really learn what your Catholic faith truly teaches rather than speculate like ML1957 is doing and turning tail and running away from the truth. You would rather bad mouth what you think is the truth rather than really find out what the truth is. We would be more than willing to help you understand your faith better, if you would let us.
 
Well,

It looks like ML1957 will be away for a while (anyone know the terms of a suspension?).

In the meantime, I had 2 Jehovah’s Witnesses come to the door today. Not quite Church of Christ, but similar in many ways. Once they realized I’m serious about my Catholicism and was able to defend the Church teachings they lost interest. 😦

Actually, I had hoped to open a dialog that would go on for a while, but I was nervous as all get out while they were here. Don’t know what that’s all about. So when I felt myself getting all shaky, I just prayed to the Holy Spirit that something, anything I might say might help them to better understand the Catholic Church.

They were especially surprised when I stated that the Pope didn’t have the Authority to make certain changes, because he’s the Vicar of Christ and can only proclaim the truth according to Jesus Christ.

CARose
 
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ml1957:
I was able to print 45 posts and discuss them with my high school bible class last night.

The first thing we agreed upon is that hostile or rude comments from loarrose and a few others should be ignored.
We searched a lot of scripture,and came to a few conclusions.
We began by searching for a Pope. We never found one.

If the Church existed before the NT, that’s not so surprising. 🙂

More to the point - the Pope as such is nowhere in the NT. What is in the NT, is the founding of the Petrine ministry; and the Papacy is a development of this ministry: as we believe, (being Catholics) a legitimate development. What you were doing, was looking for oaks, when you should have been looking for acorns.

Something are in Scripture, not by being named, but by being described in a piecemeal fashion, here and there. No one passage in the NT describes the work of Christ at length - we have to put the witness of the entire NT together to get the whole picture that the NT gives. So with the Trinity - we have to assemble everything relevant. So with the Petrine ministry; or with anything else.

As with the Trinity, or the Deity of Christ, or anything else, one has to have some idea of what to look for; otherwise, one may find something, not realise one has, and ignore it; or find it, but not realise its significance. ##
We let the words of Jesus guide us unto salvation. Everything we need to know is written for us in the New Testament. You see after Christ died,he left us with the inspired words of God to accept him,or reject him.
We do not read of a Pope. We still can’t find him. Come to think of it,we can’t find the word Catholic in the Bible.

By adding to the word of God you are not pleasing to him. There is no place for a Pope on earth. The Pope is a man. A man on TV.

Also we learned that you become a Christian after you hear,beleive,repent,confess and are baptized. You are added to the Church. How can an infant hear and beleive?
 
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kamz:
Why was ML1957 suspended? I just read through all his 27 posts and really couldn’t find anything bad, yes, he is a little huffy and frustrated but I don’t think he did anything wrong either, he wasn’t calling anyone dirty names etc. he was just asking questions and I was really interested in having him finally answer some of Our questions and boom, he is suspended? How can we help people understand the Catholic faith if they get suspended? I’ve seen alot worse and none of his questions were that bad, he just could not grasp the Pope and he at least was honest that he just didn’t get it, I know my husbands Lutheran family feel that way too, it just does not make any sense to them. I wish he would not have been suspended, a warning would probably have done, just my opinion. 🙂
I agree with you 100%. Maybe he was out of line on another thread. I thought he was at least softening.
 
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ml1957:
Where do I begin? How can anyone who reads the Bible (Gods inspired word) come up with the Pope? Does the New Testament sound familiar?
I was about to send a stern reply, but I see now that this user has been suspended. Good. There’s really no need to answer such an inflammatory, accusatory post.
 
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mercygate:
I agree with you 100%. Maybe he was out of line on another thread. I thought he was at least softening.
I agree. I added him to my buddy list so I could see if he was on-line.

I also didn’t see anything that I would have suspended him for, but I trust the admin must have pulled the offensive post.

CARose
 
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ml1957:
I may be back later to discuss things further one day. Until then I leave you as a Christian…nothing more…nothing less.

ML has left the building
I don’t mean to be snide, but throughout this thread you have seemed to be saying “if you won’t agree with me, then don’t talk!” I hope I’m wrong, and willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If you do return to the board, I’d love to chat with you about the faith. As long as you are willing to play fair and answer the challenges that others make to your beliefs the way you have made to ours.

God be with you!
 
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mercygate:
I agree with you 100%. Maybe he was out of line on another thread. I thought he was at least softening.
I read all of his threads mercygate and they were all on this subject that he started, I feel like we were just beginning to maybe help him understand and boom, what bothers me is he made a comment that he was being threatened to be suspended because he was not Catholic and I said that could not happen and next thing I know he is suspended and I don’t know how that can help us ever show people a good side to Catholics, you know what I mean? I looked at all 27 of the posts he posted at this site and none were really anything that was hurtful, I’m thinking someone felt annoyed with him and told the admin. but I don’t know how we can ever help protestants if they are all locked out. 😦
 
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TeriGator:
I don’t mean to be snide, but throughout this thread you have seemed to be saying “if you won’t agree with me, then don’t talk!” I hope I’m wrong, and willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If you do return to the board, I’d love to chat with you about the faith. As long as you are willing to play fair and answer the challenges that others make to your beliefs the way you have made to ours.

God be with you!
Well, he can’t respond anymore since ML1957 has been suspended. 😦
 
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mercygate:
Then you have a Catholic view. Most fundamentalist-type Protestants do not believe in Sacraments at all; they believe that they are completely worthless.

And Catholics do not believe that Sacraments confer salvation; we believe that they confer *grace *to aid us in our walk. Big difference.
Protestants typically celebrate Communion and Baptism. Some denominations view communion as symbolic only, others have a view of consubstantiation, I’m not sure about whether Lutherans believe in Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation. Either way most Protestants do believe and celebrate sacaraments - just not the same number or in the same way as Roman Catholics.

By the way it is not just Protestants that don’t believe in papal infallibility, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox Catholics don’t subscribe either, if memory serves.
 
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