The problem of 'demon drink'

[rlg94086]

I need to re-state what ive already posted that yes drinking wine is permitted in the Bible and i know the Bible tells us that drunkenness is a sin. Also i know that a lot of people drink moderately.

What the report in the op states is the fact that many(& one person is one too many) people die from the use of alcohol. Also many peoples lives are destroyed by the use of alcohol and many people who use alcohol destroy other peoples lives.

Now i know the heart of this problem is sin and im aware that no human can stop people from sinning. Therefore imo banning alcohol etc won’t work. However what i am advocating is the idea that Christians (who are to be salt and light in this world and who are supposed to have a genuine concern/love for people) go the extra mile by abstaining from alcohol to show people that there is no need to take alcohol, period. Imo if this action by Christians influences one person not to take alcohol then this is a very worthwhile thing to do.

Can i also say that there is no valid reason for any person to take alcohol(i do of course exclude any possible medical reasons). There are so many good/nice non-alcoholic drinks, so there is no valid reason for taking alcohol.

Again i say imo that it would be far better for Christians to abstain from alcohol voluntarily in order to influence other people not to take alcohol. Also remember the other person that a Christian could influence not to take alcohol might just be the next person who if they take alcohol could become an alcoholic, a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a teenager who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion.

Do Christians really care?? Do Christians really care enough to go the extra mile???

I go the extra mile, by not drinking to excess. Drinking to excess is both a sin and the cause of deaths.

Too much alcohol is deadly to alcoholics and an excess of alcohol is bad for anyone. Too much sugar is deadly to diabetics and an excess of sugar is bad for anyone. Should Christians therefore also give up sugar as a good example?

No offense, but your argument is not logical. If drinking alcohol were a sin, then of course we should give it up. Since it is okay in moderation, we should show temperance, which we are all called to. If you personally are called to abstain from alcohol, that is fine, but there is no imperative for all Christians to abstain from alcohol.

 

[emeraldisle]

I go the extra mile, by not drinking to excess. Drinking to excess is both a sin and the cause of deaths.

Too much alcohol is deadly to alcoholics and an excess of alcohol is bad for anyone. Too much sugar is deadly to diabetics and an excess of sugar is bad for anyone. Should Christians therefore also give up sugar as a good example?

No offense, but your argument is not logical. If drinking alcohol were a sin, then of course we should give it up. Since it is okay in moderation, we should show temperance, which we are all called to. If you personally are called to abstain from alcohol, that is fine, but there is no imperative for all Christians to abstain from alcohol.

My point of view is not base on logics but love, a genuine & sincere love for other people. A love that goes beyond words, a love that goes the extra mile.

Yes i agree with you that there is no imperative for Christians to abstain from alcohol, there is no command in the Bible. Im only suggesting that Christians abstain from alcohol out of their love for other people, to possibly prevent one person from becoming an alcoholic, a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a teenager who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion.

Only appealing on the basis’s of love for other people.

 

[rlg94086]

My point of view is not base on logics but love, a genuine & sincere love for other people. A love that goes beyond words, a love that goes the extra mile.

Yes i agree with you that there is no imperative for Christians to abstain from alcohol, there is no command in the Bible. Im only suggesting that Christians abstain from alcohol out of their love for other people, to possibly prevent one person from becoming an alcoholic, a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a teenager who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion.

Only appealing on the basis’s of love for other people.

I understand. Out of love, I don’t drink at home…it bothers my children if I have a beer or two…or wine, while relaxing at home. However, I still occasionally go out with my wife and have a drink or two with a meal on our “date nights” and I have a drink or two with my customers and vendors when travelling for business. I decline to go out “partying” with customers/vendors until the wee hours of the morning at questionable establishments. That is going the extra mile IMHO.

 

[emeraldisle]

I understand. Out of love, I don’t drink at home…it bothers my children if I have a beer or two…or wine, while relaxing at home. However, I still occasionally go out with my wife and have a drink or two with a meal on our “date nights” and I have a drink or two with my customers and vendors when travelling for business. I decline to go out “partying” with customers/vendors until the wee hours of the morning at questionable establishments. That is going the extra mile IMHO.

I guess we can agree to disagree on what we mean by “going the extra mile”?

If you knew for sure that by your abstaining from alcohol you could influence one person not to take alcohol and thereby prevent them from becoming an alcoholic, a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a teenager who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion. Would you then abstain from taking alcohol? Would you consider this “going the extra mile” out of love for people?

 

[rlg94086]

I guess we can agree to disagree on what we mean by “going the extra mile”?

If you knew for sure that by your abstaining from alcohol you could influence one person not to take alcohol and thereby prevent them from becoming an alcoholic, a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a teenager who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion. Would you then abstain from taking alcohol? Would you consider this “going the extra mile” out of love for people?

Hmm…I’ll answer that query if you will answer this one.

If you knew for sure that by abstaining from using the internet you could influence one person not to use the internet and thereby prevent them from finding pornographic content, becoming hooked on it and become so obsessed that they rape someone. Would you then abstain from using the internet? Would you consider “going the extra mile” out of love for people?

You don’t *need *to use the internet. There are much better ways to spend your time…

My point is that there are many, many activities that can lead people into very sinful and harmful situations. We are not required to abstain from things that may or may not lead someone to harm. Everyone has to learn responsibility. In fact, there are some people who become so strict (for example, I know some Christians who forbid dancing, as well drinking), that their children rebel to the point that they harm themselves even worse than children of parents who weren’t as strict.

There is something to be said to balance and moderation. We should avoid sin, of course, but becoming overly scrupulous is not healthy.

 

[emeraldisle]

Hmm…I’ll answer that query if you will answer this one.

If you knew for sure that by abstaining from using the internet you could influence one person not to use the internet and thereby prevent them from finding pornographic content, becoming hooked on it and become so obsessed that they rape someone. Would you then abstain from using the internet? Would you consider “going the extra mile” out of love for people?

You don’t *need *to use the internet. There are much better ways to spend your time…

My point is that there are many, many activities that can lead people into very sinful and harmful situations. We are not required to abstain from things that may or may not lead someone to harm. Everyone has to learn responsibility. In fact, there are some people who become so strict (for example, I know some Christians who forbid dancing, as well drinking), that their children rebel to the point that they harm themselves even worse than children of parents who weren’t as strict.

There is something to be said to balance and moderation. We should avoid sin, of course, but becoming overly scrupulous is not healthy.

Well it’s biblical to answer a question with a question

Yes sadly there is much harm on the internet but there are many valid & genuine reasons for using the internet, keeping in touch with friends, bible study, web evangelism, sharing helpful info, news info, work/business etc.

Yes we must beware of becoming extreme/unbalanced but i don’t think someone abstaining from alcohol in order to influence other people from taking it and possibly destroying theirs lives is extreme or unbalanced but just trying to love people by going the extra mile.

Imho not taking alcohol and taking a non-alcoholic drink is a relativity easy thing to do, unless of course a person is sadly addicted to alcohol. Also doing this relativity easy thing could make a big and significant impact for good on another persons life and their family& friends lives.

 

[rlg94086]

Well it’s biblical to answer a question with a question

Yes sadly there is much harm on the internet but there are many valid & genuine reasons for using the internet, keeping in touch with friends, bible study, web evangelism, sharing helpful info, news info, work/business etc.

Yes we must beware of becoming extreme/unbalanced but i don’t think someone abstaining from alcohol in order to influence other people from taking it and possibly destroying theirs lives is extreme or unbalanced but just trying to love people by going the extra mile.

Imho not taking alcohol and taking a non-alcoholic drink is a relativity easy thing to do, unless of course a person is sadly addicted to alcohol. Also doing this relativity easy thing could make a big and significant impact for good on another persons life and their family& friends lives.

Okay, well it seems we don’t have any disagreement then. Don’t drink alcohol. That way you can make a significant impact.

I will continue to be an example of temperance. I hope that also makes a significant impact.

 

[Swan]

Alcoholism runs in both my mom’s and dad’s families (my dad, hlf brother, mom’s dad, brother) all of whom are dead now. Luckily, I did not inherit this problem, nor have I ever had any kind of substance abuse problem. BUT, at least in the case of my dad and half-brother (and probably in many other cases) alcohol was used to self-medicate bipolar disorder (manic depression) which I did inherit. I do wonder how common this is. My dad was of the old school when it came to mental health - less than a month before he killed himself he refused to start taking anti-depressents because he was not “crazy”. I’ve known other folks who self meidcated as well, sometimes with illegal drugs. Of course, this only makes the problem worse. I drink very little and do take anti-depressants. I guess the question to focus on for some folks is why do you drink.

 

[Joseph_Metrick]

Is it true that most people who die an alcohol related death are regular people and not the so called “down and outs”? Also what about the people who are killed by people who are drunk and the drunk people who kill themselves in accidents etc.

Also why is society so ok about alcohol when the report in the op shows how this drug kills and destroys so many lives?

 

[deb1]

I guess we can agree to disagree on what we mean by “going the extra mile”?

If you knew for sure that by your abstaining from alcohol you could influence one person not to take alcohol and thereby prevent them from becoming an alcoholic, a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a teenager who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion. Would you then abstain from taking alcohol? Would you consider this “going the extra mile” out of love for people?

I live in the southeastern US. There are scores of Baptists who believe that drinking is a sin and a sign of not being a Christian. These people have not influenced others not to drink.

Instead we have a situation here in which people drink only to get drunk. Extremes often encourage opposite extremes.

What we should do is drink in moderation and stop saying that it is getting drunk is fun and enjoyable. Getting drunk should be something that society looks down upon. There should also be more help and education for those who have addictions or have addictions in their families.

The key is not even in alcohol itself, but our culture. Modern culture glorifies excess. Going to extremes is glorified while having self control is considered boring.

 

[deb1]

Well it’s biblical to answer a question with a question

Yes sadly there is much harm on the internet but there are many valid & genuine reasons for using the internet, keeping in touch with friends, bible study, web evangelism, sharing helpful info, news info, work/business etc.

Yes we must beware of becoming extreme/unbalanced but i don’t think someone abstaining from alcohol in order to influence other people from taking it and possibly destroying theirs lives is extreme or unbalanced but just trying to love people by going the extra mile.

Imho not taking alcohol and taking a non-alcoholic drink is a relativity easy thing to do, unless of course a person is sadly addicted to alcohol. Also doing this relativity easy thing could make a big and significant impact for good on another persons life and their family& friends lives.

I think that it is wonderful that you are concerned with the problem and want to do something to help. I don’t agree that your solution will be effective-I see the opposite here in the southeastern US - but the fact that you want to do something is commendable.

Maybe this will be your misson in life, to help people not misuse alcohol.

 

[Freshman88]

Drink has been part of Christian culture since the Apostles.

Look all European cultures, especially Catholic cultures, wine, beer, vodka are all used in all sorts of traditions. Look to all the monasteries who produce good drinks.

I think it’s quite clear too that the strong anti-drink stance is something that is more prevalent in Protestant dominated cultures, in other words, it’s foreign to the Catholic tradition. I understand that many pious men have given up drink, but they did so not because they feared alcohol but because they loved alcohol. Avoiding something because you fear it, that’s easy, avoiding something that you truly love, now that’s an admirable act of piety.

I grew up with alcohol, I was exposed to it an early age (13ish) and was taught to use it with moderation and in celebration. When kids began drinking at school I was not tempted to get trashed like most of my peers. I didn’t see much sense in getting drunk for the sake of getting drunk because I was taught how to drink in moderation. This is something that most North American kids don’t get and its really really sad and it’s because of an irrational fear. Instead of hiding kids from alchohol they should be taught to drink responsibly. America is insane to have drinking restricted to 21 years age, even in my current province of Quebec where the age is 18, is too high.

Now I can respect someone who just isn’t interested in drinking, thats fine, I don’t personally don’t see the sense in it. But when they start claiming that it’s a “demon’s drink” and that avoiding drink is going the extra-mile, well, that’s when I have to shake my head. It seems to suggest that avoiding alcohol because it can be misused is wrong and as akin to saying that avoiding money is a worthy practice because money can be misused too. That stance couldn’t be further from the truth, alcohol is gift from God that was given to us in order to be enjoyed!

Going the extra-mile is not hiding from alcohol it’s learning how to use alcohol and enjoy it properly. Hiding from alcohol is the easy way out, and is also denying one of God’s greatest gifts to humanity - good drink!

 

[geezerbob]

Freshman, you may very well rethink your stance if you or someone close to you ever becomes addicted to alcohol. It is truly debilitating and fearsome, completely deserving of the name “demon rum” for those so afflicted. This is coming from someone who has been there, done that, and is now approaching 25 years of sobriety. When God lifted that curse from me, it was indeed as if a demon had been exorcised.

 

[IsaacSheen]

Drink has been part of Christian culture since the Apostles.

Look all European cultures, especially Catholic cultures, wine, beer, vodka are all used in all sorts of traditions. Look to all the monasteries who produce good drinks.

I think it’s quite clear too that the strong anti-drink stance is something that is more prevalent in Protestant dominated cultures, in other words, it’s foreign to the Catholic tradition. I understand that many pious men have given up drink, but they did so not because they feared alcohol but because they loved alcohol. Avoiding something because you fear it, that’s easy, avoiding something that you truly love, now that’s an admirable act of piety.

EDIT: I’ll also say this, what we need isn’t less alcohol, what we need is more faith and from an earlier age. The more we take God out of the equation, the more you’ll see abuse of all substances and each other. Alcohol isn’t the problem, we are.

I grew up with alcohol, I was exposed to it an early age (13ish) and was taught to use it with moderation and in celebration. When kids began drinking at school I was not tempted to get trashed like most of my peers. I didn’t see much sense in getting drunk for the sake of getting drunk because I was taught how to drink in moderation. This is something that most North American kids don’t get and its really really sad and it’s because of an irrational fear. Instead of hiding kids from alchohol they should be taught to drink responsibly. America is insane to have drinking restricted to 21 years age, even in my current province of Quebec where the age is 18, is too high.

Now I can respect someone who just isn’t interested in drinking, thats fine, I don’t personally don’t see the sense in it. But when they start claiming that it’s a “demon’s drink” and that avoiding drink is going the extra-mile, well, that’s when I have to shake my head. It seems to suggest that avoiding alcohol because it can be misused is wrong and as akin to saying that avoiding money is a worthy practice because money can be misused too. That stance couldn’t be further from the truth, alcohol is gift from God that was given to us in order to be enjoyed!

Going the extra-mile is not hiding from alcohol it’s learning how to use alcohol and enjoy it properly. Hiding from alcohol is the easy way out, and is also denying one of God’s greatest gifts to humanity - good drink!

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

geezerbob:

Freshman, you may very well rethink your stance if you or someone close to you ever becomes addicted to alcohol. It is truly debilitating and fearsome, completely deserving of the name “demon rum” for those so afflicted. This is coming from someone who has been there, done that, and is now approaching 25 years of sobriety. When God lifted that curse from me, it was indeed as if a demon had been exorcised.

Although I respect the fact that this has hurt you personally, it wasn’t alcohol that is the culprit. The person abusing the alcohol is the culprit. We are sinners, myself included, and we need to acknowledge that it’s us doing the sin…not the gun, not the alcohol, not the >insert whatever you want here<.

American young aldults definitely have a much more immature attitude towards drinking than cultures that don’t make a big deal out of this. I know this from first hand experience and from studies I have seen. Are their alcoholics and people who get drunk and abuse alcohol in other countries? Most definitely. I don’t think however, that the plan is to get drunk as soon as you hit the drinking age like it is in America. The puritan/protestant beliefs that our country still dwells on are absolutely absurb.

 

[Freshman88]

Freshman, you may very well rethink your stance if you or someone close to you ever becomes addicted to alcohol. It is truly debilitating and fearsome, completely deserving of the name “demon rum” for those so afflicted. This is coming from someone who has been there, done that, and is now approaching 25 years of sobriety. When God lifted that curse from me, it was indeed as if a demon had been exorcised.

Geezer I’m sorry to hear about your problem, but, looking at my family, at my brothers and cousins, we have all been taught to drink responsibly. I cannot honestly think of drink as demon’s drink no more so then money as the root of all evil. They are mere objects, it us who makes them bad.

I am at a university and in a town, where drinking to excess is the norm. I see what it does to some kids, last year I saw some kids drink and smoke there way out of university. There is nothing sadder than to see a young man, 18 years old, drink his dreams away. They were good friends too. In fact, I’ll be living with one such kid next year, he really is good friend. It was sad to watch him do this to himself, but it wasn’t the fault of drink.

Take away drink and many other kids will start smoking marijuana. Around here there are delivery services for marijuana - you can literally just dial a number and a dealer will show up at your door with a 1/4. Its not too hard to get these numbers too. At my residence, the hallways wreaked with marijuana, and many students dealt pot as a side job.

This hasn’t deterred me at all. I just think of my family at Easter or Christmas. Raising a shot of Vodka to honour our ancestors as well as those who are present. It is a wonderful way to use this wonderful gift from God.

Nastrovia!

 

[geezerbob]

The thing is, Freshman, regardless of your personal experience and observations, that approximately 10% of the people who drink will become alcoholic, and that is a physical, mental and spiritual addiction that, once it strikes a person, is beyond the control of the victim. Only God can help. Moreover it is an equal opportunity destroyer, striking any it chooses, without regard to whether they were binge drinking or drinking responsibly and totally blinds them to what is happening. I’m not saying that alcohol is intrinsically evil for everybody, but it certainly is for that 10%, which is not an insignificant number.

 

[Freshman88]

The thing is, Freshman, regardless of your personal experience and observations, that approximately 10% of the people who drink will become alcoholic, and that is a physical, mental and spiritual addiction that, once it strikes a person, is beyond the control of the victim. Only God can help. Moreover it is an equal opportunity destroyer, striking any it chooses, without regard to whether they were binge drinking or drinking responsibly and totally blinds them to what is happening. I’m not saying that alcohol is intrinsically evil for everybody, but it certainly is for that 10%, which is not an insignificant number.

So out of everyone who tastes alcohol, 10% become addicted?

I find that hard to believe, but if there is that 10% who can’t control themselves, then sure, they shouldn’t drink.

I know I can’t play video games, I’m a very passionate person and I have to be careful about what hobbies I pick up.

That doesn’t mean that video games are the Demon’s tube. I don’t scoff at people who can enjoy games or encourage others not to play. I realize the problem is with myself and not the object.

 

[steveandersen]

The British Medical Association (BMA) report shows alcohol now kills more people every month than heroin does in a year.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7257346.stm

But since far more than 12 times as many people consume alcohol than use heroine why is this a story?

It is a meaningless statistic

The death rate per user (if that is even an appropriate term here) is obviously much lower.

 

[mschrank]

Didn’t Chesterton say, “we ought to thank God for giving us Burgundy by not drinking too much of it”?

 

[steveandersen]

I don’t know but I’ve heard Franklin credited with saying “Beer is our way of knowing that there is a God and that He wants us to be happy.”