The problem of 'demon drink'

[dprewett]

It is my experismce that people over the age og 60 cause more auto accedents than people under 60 so they should not be able to drive. also I believe that any one under the age of 28 is unable to have a normal sexual married relationship with another so all people under the age of 28 should be locked away untill they are 29. I believe anyone who takes a doctor subscribed anti-depresant or pain-relever is a drug attic and should be locked away. I beleive any one who chooses to become a priest must be gay or a pediphile,

This is how rediculas this soundes to me.

 

[rayne89]

Also your comments about me, “if i really cared about this issue”, well can you read my mind, do you know me well enough to make such a statement?

Why don’t you re-read your posts and see how many times you accused Christians of not caring, of people who don’t agree with you of not caring? Can you read the mind of Christians? Do you know them well enough to make such a statement? It’s ok for you to accuse others of not caring.
It doesn’t feel so good when the accusation is directed at you though, does it?

 

[rayne89]

Personal experience is subjective, i mean someone else can use their personal experience to cancel out the point you are making with your personal experience. There are people in the UK who are taking alcohol moderately but yet still more and more people are dying from taking alcohol. Why isn’t their moderate example influencing people? Should we bury our heads in the sand and wish this serious problem away.

So are you saying there are no non-drinkers in the UK? Here in the US we have plenty of non-drinkers so why isn’t their abstinence from alcohol influencing people? Why do we still have alcoholics, drunk driving accidents, binge drinkers? My father-in-law’s family belong to a Christian denomination that bans drinking & yet about 70% of the children produced from this family having drinking problems. Why doesn’t their abstinence from alcohol prevent them from having children with drinking problems? Why isn’t your idea working?

 

[rayne89]

Should we bury our heads in the sand and wish this serious problem away.

Emeraldisle what exactly is your life experience with problem drinking? Do you have family members who are alcoholics or problem drinkers? Close friends? How much have you studied about alcoholism or addiction? What books, studies, medical journals have you researched? How much effort have you made in learning about this serious problem?

 

[blessedtoo]

Imo there’s no valid reason for taking alcohol but there is a very good reason for not taking alcohol and that is “love for your neighbor”.

There is no logic in your assertions on this thread. I understand you are trying to position your theory on the premise of “Christian love”, but you are having trouble convincing other because the theory itself makes no sense at all.

There are actually quite a few “valid” reasons for “taking” alcohol. There are health benefits as well as psychological benefits. As a chef, I can tell you that a meal without a glass of wine is bereft of the fullness it deserves. There are actually more “valid” reasons to “take” alcohol than you have proposed for abstinence.

Your language is disconcerting as well. One does not “take” alcohol or “use” alcohol if one is only a social drinker. Someone who enjoys a cocktail before dinner or a glass of cognac after, generally “drinks” or “sips” their alcohol.

You decision to abstain from alcohol for your own personal reasons (fasting for God, personal health concerns, etc) is okey-dokey. But suggesting that your abstinence is an expression of “love thy neighbor” or going “the extra mile” is really a stretch. Sorry.

 

[Nordar]

There is no logic in your assertions on this thread. I understand you are trying to position your theory on the premise of “Christian love”, but you are having trouble convincing other because the theory itself makes no sense at all.

There are actually quite a few “valid” reasons for “taking” alcohol. There are health benefits as well as psychological benefits. As a chef, I can tell you that a meal without a glass of wine is bereft of the fullness it deserves. There are actually more “valid” reasons to “take” alcohol than you have proposed for abstinence.

Your language is disconcerting as well. One does not “take” alcohol or “use” alcohol if one is only a social drinker. Someone who enjoys a cocktail before dinner or a glass of cognac after, generally “drinks” or “sips” their alcohol.

You decision to abstain from alcohol for your own personal reasons (fasting for God, personal health concerns, etc) is okey-dokey. But suggesting that your abstinence is an expression of “love thy neighbor” or going “the extra mile” is really a stretch. Sorry.

:yup:

 

[corvidae]

As a brewer I have taken particular interest in this thread.

I brew beer, but I am not a merchant of drunkeness, I am a merchant of drink.

I recommend reading the short essay of G.K. Chesterton “Wine, when it is red”

found here

catholic-forum.com/saints/gkc16028.htm

The most telling line, and I believe one of the most true is

And thus no animal ever invented anything so bad as drunkenness - or so good as drink

A lone Raven

 

[emeraldisle]

Actually, you don’t need a car…I’m not sure where you get that idea. There are people who live quite well without one. In fact, it would be very Christian of you to live as a minimalist - small living quarters, no car, plain dress, only healthy foods to sustain you. There is plenty for you to give up.

Actually believe it or not I don’t own a car, I mostly use public transport but I do get lifts from people in their cars. In developed countries using cars(your own or getting a lift in another persons car) is an accepted form of transport and therefore a need because it’s difficult for most people to do their normal day to day activities without some form of transport. However would it be difficult for people to do their normal day to day activities if they didn’t take alcohol? Only if they are addicted to alcohol.

BTW I do live in small living quarters, dress in a simple/plain way and thankfully eat healthy foods, which many people in the world would love to have.

 

[emeraldisle]

Why don’t you re-read your posts and see how many times you accused Christians of not caring, of people who don’t agree with you of not caring? Can you read the mind of Christians? Do you know them well enough to make such a statement? It’s ok for you to accuse others of not caring.
It doesn’t feel so good when the accusation is directed at you though, does it?

I made general statements, you made a specific accusation and you are aren’t prepared to admit that you were wrong in what you said. I do know that many Christians do care about people and some care more about people than others.

 

[rlg94086]

Actually believe it or not I don’t own a car, I mostly use public transport but I do get lifts from people in their cars. In developed countries using cars(your own or getting a lift in another persons car) is an accepted form of transport and therefore a need because it’s difficult for most people to do their normal day to day activities without some form of transport. However would it be difficult for people to do their normal day to day activities if they didn’t take alcohol? Only if they are addicted to alcohol.

BTW I do live in small living quarters, dress in a simple/plain way and thankfully eat healthy foods, which many people in the world would love to have.

Great! You are an example to all then. Keep it up! I’ll drink to that!

 

[emeraldisle]

So are you saying there are no non-drinkers in the UK? Here in the US we have plenty of non-drinkers so why isn’t their abstinence from alcohol influencing people? Why do we still have alcoholics, drunk driving accidents, binge drinkers? My father-in-law’s family belong to a Christian denomination that bans drinking & yet about 70% of the children produced from this family having drinking problems. Why doesn’t their abstinence from alcohol prevent them from having children with drinking problems? Why isn’t your idea working?

You are using more subjective personal experiences. In this tread some posters have suggested that by people taking alcohol moderately they will influence other people to take alcohol in moderation. This isn’t happening in the UK. Also I’m sure that there are a lot more moderate users of alcohol than non-users of alcohol so more people should be influenced to use alcohol moderately. However the fact is in the UK each month an increasing number of people are dying from alcohol use. So the moderate use influence argument is not correct.

 

[emeraldisle]

Emeraldisle what exactly is your life experience with problem drinking? Do you have family members who are alcoholics or problem drinkers? Close friends? How much have you studied about alcoholism or addiction? What books, studies, medical journals have you researched? How much effort have you made in learning about this serious problem?

Im just a regular guy in the real world and I see the terrible effects of alcohol use in peoples lives. Also I sadly do have first hand experience of the terrible effects of alcohol use but im not going to use personal experiences in this discussion.

 

[emeraldisle]

There is no logic in your assertions on this thread. I understand you are trying to position your theory on the premise of “Christian love”, but you are having trouble convincing other because the theory itself makes no sense at all.

There are actually quite a few “valid” reasons for “taking” alcohol. There are health benefits as well as psychological benefits. As a chef, I can tell you that a meal without a glass of wine is bereft of the fullness it deserves. There are actually more “valid” reasons to “take” alcohol than you have proposed for abstinence.

Your language is disconcerting as well. One does not “take” alcohol or “use” alcohol if one is only a social drinker. Someone who enjoys a cocktail before dinner or a glass of cognac after, generally “drinks” or “sips” their alcohol.

You decision to abstain from alcohol for your own personal reasons (fasting for God, personal health concerns, etc) is okey-dokey. But suggesting that your abstinence is an expression of “love thy neighbor” or going “the extra mile” is really a stretch. Sorry.

I’ve already addressed the “logic” issue in a previous post but I state again that it wasn’t logical for God to become man and to die at the hands of His creatures on the cross He created. God’s actions were done because of His “love” and not because it was a “logical” thing to do. So my suggestion for Christians to not take alcohol out of “love” for their neighbor isn’t supposed to be “logical” but to show people that we can live very well without taking alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives.

There only needs to be one valid reason for Christians not taking alcohol and that is to save lives. Do we need any other reason?

 

[deb1]

I’ve already addressed the “logic” issue in a previous post but I state again that it wasn’t logical for God to become man and to die at the hands of His creatures on the cross He created. God’s actions were done because of His “love” and not because it was a “logical” thing to do. So my suggestion for Christians to not take alcohol out of “love” for their neighbor isn’t supposed to be “logical” but to show people that we can live very well without taking alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives.

There only needs to be one valid reason for Christians not taking alcohol and that is to save lives. Do we need any other reason?

Yes, you have to be logical to the point that when you start suggesting that Christians give up something that is not a sin that it would actually work.

we can all live without sugar. I have a lot of friends who are very, very large. I could give up sweets to show love for their food adictions. I have not done that because I don’t see that helping.

 

[Scottgun]

I’ve already addressed the “logic” issue in a previous post but I state again that it wasn’t logical for God to become man and to die at the hands of His creatures on the cross He created. God’s actions were done because of His “love” and not because it was a “logical” thing to do. So my suggestion for Christians to not take alcohol out of “love” for their neighbor isn’t supposed to be “logical” but to show people that we can live very well without taking alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives.

There only needs to be one valid reason for Christians not taking alcohol and that is to save lives. Do we need any other reason?

Again this is trying to smuggle drinking into the category of wrongdoing. You can’t lay out a logical case (and yes, your insistance that love-trumps-logic is still a case of logic. Bad logic, but still an appeal to it) and when someone shows the flaw in it, dive down the escape hatch of “this is about love not logic” as if they are mutually excluding.

 

[blessedtoo]

You are using more subjective personal experiences. In this tread some posters have suggested that by people taking alcohol moderately they will influence other people to take alcohol in moderation. This isn’t happening in the UK. Also I’m sure that there are a lot more moderate users of alcohol than non-users of alcohol so more people should be influenced to use alcohol moderately. However the fact is in the UK each month an increasing number of people are dying from alcohol use. So the moderate use influence argument is not correct.

You can’t possibly extrapolate from this study what is and isn’t “working”. There is no mention made about how one person’s drinking habits (or lack thereof) influence anothers. There are no numbers or hard facts given. It is simply a commentary on the rise in the number of deaths related to drinking.

I’ve already addressed the “logic” issue in a previous post but I state again that it wasn’t logical for God to become man and to die at the hands of His creatures on the cross He created. God’s actions were done because of His “love” and not because it was a “logical” thing to do.

I think you should refrain from comparing Christ’s sacrifice to that which you are defending here: abstinence from drink. To be frank, Catholics are certainly able to see the “logic” and reason in what Christ did for us. Not only that, but the fruits of His sacrifice are clearly discernable.

There only needs to be one valid reason for Christians not taking alcohol and that is to save lives. Do we need any other reason?

Who gets to decide what is a “valid” reason? You? Quite a few valid reasons have been provided on this thread yet you continue to insist that, in your opinion, they don’t qualify. OTOH, your assertion that abstaining from alcohol WILL effect others in a positive way has no “valid” evidence in it’s favor. From this shaky foundation you have concluded that:

Do Christians really care?? Do Christians really care enough to go the extra mile???

A love that goes beyond words, a love that goes the extra mile.

Would you consider this “going the extra mile” out of love for people?

non-Christians were more concerned about other people who need help

Imo this is the sort of mindset that prevails in people who say that it’s ok to abort a baby when it’s only a number of weeks old. (can you say “inflammatory”?)

there is a very good reason for not taking alcohol and that is “love for your neighbor”.

The issue is simple are Christians willing to go the extra mile by not taking alcohol in order to influence people not to take alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives.

My going the extra mile is based upon Christian love not duty.

Will Christians clearly show by their actions that they care about the fact that the use of alcohol is killing people and destroying lives?

You started this thread with a link to a commentary about alcohol use in the UK. You concluded, without any evidence, that moderate drinking does not “work” in eliminating problem drinking. From that, you assert that Christians who do not completely abstain from alcohol use are failing to “go the extra mile” and are not showing “love for their fellow man”. It’s accusatory and condenscending and it makes NO SENSE.

Again, if you want to proclaim that you have sacrificed the use of alcohol for the Lord (which, IMO, should be done with humility and not arrogance), more power to you. But please stop positioning it as something that all Christians should do out of “love” for their neighbor. Everyone is called to some sacrifice and offering. This may be yours. It does not illustrate a moral failing in those who choose to enjoy alcohol responsibly.

 

[Nordar]

emeraldisle,

       Your whole presentation is totally flawed, as someone else mentioned it makes absolutely no sense. Social drinkers, or people who have no problem drinking abstaining from drinking in order to  be a what? an example to Alcoholics or people who abuse alcohol is absurd.

       People who do not drink or social drinkers are people that Alcoholics do not trust. Instead of being a way of getting them not to drink, they pay absolutely no attention to them and avoide them at all costs. People not drinking in order that others will do the same and not abuse it, is in reality an exercise in futility. Nothing is going to stop an Alcoholic from drinking except putting their lives in God's hands and deciding they themselves need to stop. Not you, not anyone out of any misguided Christian love, neither should social drinkers have to, they do not have a problem.

 

[Diana_Lynn]

Interesting thread you have going here… Might I throw my hat into the ring?

I was raised by an alcoholic Father, and my brothers both became alcoholics. I was taught by my Mother, who endured great emotional abuse for 40 years, that “there is a devil in every bottle”. I believed her. It’s what I was taught, and I witnessed first-hand the “evidence” of that theory.

As an adult, I have raised two children. My 22 year old son, despite the fact that I abstain from alcohol is in fact an alcoholic. It’s heartbreaking to see it. I have put a lot, and I mean A LOT! of time and effort into this issue. My whole life, really.

I understand your heartfelt desire to eliminate alcohol completely. Been there - done that - got the medal to cover the scars. However, it doesn’t work. You asked… “if you believed it would help, would you abstain…?” The answer is I did, and I tried it, and I have come to the honest conclusion, with God’s help, that IT DOESN’T WORK! WHY? Because God not only gave us wine, he gave us a very special gift called FREE WILL. AND, add to that, He also let us in on a little secret… HIS WILL BE DONE. So, put it altogether, and you see that my abstinence has no effect on any other human being, so it didn’t help. My son, and every other human being out there makes their own choices. If they like drinking, their choice will be to spend more time with others who DO drink. God has a plan, my friend. His Will will be done - not mine!

If there is anything that will help - it would be to teach our children to be responsible about all that they do, be it drinking, or anything else. Put all you’ve got into it, and PRAY that it be God’s Will that they do not abuse alcohol, drugs, the internet, their bodies, others… etc. etc. etc.

Well, thanks for listening. God Bless!

 

[Nordar]

Diana your son is in my prayers!

 

[Diana_Lynn]

p.s… might I ask all a quick question? My abstinence had no effect on my family, or my friends, or neighbours, or co-workers, or anyone I know whatsoever… Did it by any chance influence any of you?