The problem of 'demon drink'

[deb1]

p.s… might I ask all a quick question? My abstinence had no effect on my family, or my friends, or neighbours, or co-workers, or anyone I know whatsoever… Did it by any chance influence any of you?

No, your abstinence had no effect on my moderate drinking habits. But I feel sorrow for your story and will pray for your son.

My mother grew up in an alcoholic home and refused to allow alcohol to be present in our home. She was addicted to pain killers though and was sometimes in a stupor. The perscription pills might have been worse then alcohol because twenty odd years ago no one paid that much attention to perscription pill addiction so I couldn’t get our family any help. My younger brother might be addicted to sex. He seems incapable of being faithful to any woman, even the women that he is having the affairs with.

Addictions run in my family. If it is possible to be addicted to something, a member of my family will be addicted to it.

 

[AHapka]

Demon drink?

1 Corinthians 10:21 “You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.”

If you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and of demons, the obvious implication is that they are two different cups.

I’m not sure what’s in the cup of demons, but I know what is in the cup of the Lord: Matthew 26:28-29 “for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

So it’s obviously clear that alcohol is not demon drink. So perhaps we should spend a little time figuring out what demon drink is and what’s in the cup of demons… That’s something we can all avoid to show love of neighbor.

The other think I don’t understand is how me not drinking alcohol saves lives? I can understand the concept in regards to illegal drug use (dealer kill people to keep providing the product, after all). But me drinking does not kill anyone. And I don’t have that high of an opinion of myself to think that people are going to not do something just because I don’t do it.

I don’t know anyone who decides how to run their lives based on the way I live mine. I just don’t think i’m that important. If they do, they are committing the sin of idolatry, since we should all seek to emulate Jesus alone.

Andy

 

[blessedtoo]

I just don’t think i’m that important. If they do, they are committing the sin of idolatry, since we should all seek to emulate Jesus alone.

Andy

Yes! And Jesus drank wine!

 

[emeraldisle]

You started this thread with a link to a commentary about alcohol use in the UK. You concluded, without any evidence, that moderate drinking does not “work” in eliminating problem drinking. From that, you assert that Christians who do not completely abstain from alcohol use are failing to “go the extra mile” and are not showing “love for their fellow man”. It’s accusatory and condenscending and it makes NO SENSE.

Again, if you want to proclaim that you have sacrificed the use of alcohol for the Lord (which, IMO, should be done with humility and not arrogance), more power to you. But please stop positioning it as something that all Christians should do out of “love” for their neighbor. Everyone is called to some sacrifice and offering. This may be yours. It does not illustrate a moral failing in those who choose to enjoy alcohol responsibly.

I started this tread with a factual news report on the British Medical Associations(BMA) report about what is actually happening to people who take alcohol. The following statements are from the report;

“Heroin kills 700 people a year. Alcohol kills 700 people a month - the death-toll having doubled since the 1990s and set to worsen. Six thousand children were on alcohol treatment programmes last year; 1,000 of them were under the age of 14. There are 100 youngsters a week hospitalised through drink - most of them girls. When asked about their drinking habits, almost four out of 10 men in Britain emerged as hazardous drinkers. And those were the ones who admitted it. The cost of the damage done by drink is put by the government at £20bn a year.”

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7257346.stm

Imo taking a nice non-alcoholic drink instead of an alcoholic drink isn’t a sacrifice, just a simple but good way to show people that there is no need to take alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives. You know if as a result of drinking milk people died and their lives where destroyed in the same way as from taking alcohol, then drinking milk would have been banned years ago. However when it comes to the very serious problem re alcohol there seems to be such a tolerance and acceptance of a substance that kills people and destroys lives. Why?

Again I state that I believe the Bible gives Christians permission to drink wine but it also clearly states that drunkenness is a sin. However I personally would feel very guilty about taking alcohol because I know so many people are dying from taking alcohol and so many lives are being destroyed through alcohol use. I also know that I have no reason to take alcohol because there are so many good non-alcoholic drinks. So to me it’s not a sacrifice to take a nice non-alcoholic drink instead of an alcoholic drink but it is a good way to show people that we can live without taking alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives.

 

[emeraldisle]

Interesting thread you have going here… Might I throw my hat into the ring?

I was raised by an alcoholic Father, and my brothers both became alcoholics. I was taught by my Mother, who endured great emotional abuse for 40 years, that “there is a devil in every bottle”. I believed her. It’s what I was taught, and I witnessed first-hand the “evidence” of that theory.

As an adult, I have raised two children. My 22 year old son, despite the fact that I abstain from alcohol is in fact an alcoholic. It’s heartbreaking to see it. I have put a lot, and I mean A LOT! of time and effort into this issue. My whole life, really.

I understand your heartfelt desire to eliminate alcohol completely. Been there - done that - got the medal to cover the scars. However, it doesn’t work. You asked… “if you believed it would help, would you abstain…?” The answer is I did, and I tried it, and I have come to the honest conclusion, with God’s help, that IT DOESN’T WORK! WHY? Because God not only gave us wine, he gave us a very special gift called FREE WILL. AND, add to that, He also let us in on a little secret… HIS WILL BE DONE. So, put it altogether, and you see that my abstinence has no effect on any other human being, so it didn’t help. My son, and every other human being out there makes their own choices. If they like drinking, their choice will be to spend more time with others who DO drink. God has a plan, my friend. His Will will be done - not mine!

If there is anything that will help - it would be to teach our children to be responsible about all that they do, be it drinking, or anything else. Put all you’ve got into it, and PRAY that it be God’s Will that they do not abuse alcohol, drugs, the internet, their bodies, others… etc. etc. etc.

Well, thanks for listening. God Bless!

Thank you for sharing and its very sad that your son has become addicted to alcohol. May God set your son free from this addiction and may He give you help to cope with this very difficult situation.

I have stated in previous posts that there are many examples of Godly men & women in the Bible who showed a very good example like you but other people didn’t follow their example. There wasn’t anything wrong with their example or yours but as you have stated all people have free will to chose whether to follow the good example or to go their own way. So imo the problem isn’t the “good example” but the “person” who makes the choice.

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldisle,

       Your whole presentation is totally flawed, as someone else mentioned it makes absolutely no sense. Social drinkers, or people who have no problem drinking abstaining from drinking in order to  be a what? an example to Alcoholics or people who abuse alcohol is absurd.

       People who do not drink or social drinkers are people that Alcoholics do not trust. Instead of being a way of getting them not to drink, they pay absolutely no attention to them and avoide them at all costs. People not drinking in order that others will do the same and not abuse it, is in reality an exercise in futility. Nothing is going to stop an Alcoholic from drinking except putting their lives in God's hands and deciding they themselves need to stop. Not you, not anyone out of any misguided Christian love, neither should social drinkers have to, they do not have a problem.

I agree that I will be very hard to influence an alcoholic not to drink through a personal choice not to drink. Im aware that it is extremely difficult for people to break addictions of any kind. Also I agree that people can be set free from addictions by the power of God. But what about influencing children/kids who have yet to take alcohol, “prevention is better than cure”.

 

[Tracyms1974]

Also why is society so ok about alcohol when the report in the op shows how this drug kills and destroys so many lives?

I have noticed myself that the alcoholic beverage producing companies have started to label their products with warnings such as, “Please enjoy our products responsibly.” The surgeon general’s warnings have also been on these products as long as I can remember. (Ex: Do not consume while pregnant, etc.) Now, I don’t know how much good these warnings do - probably not much - but I think it shows an attempt on the part of the manufacturer to at least care about the consumer. Or it could be a liability requirement, who knows?

Also, I don’t know how many bartenders out there take their jobs seriously, but as far as I know, they are trained to “cut people off” when they feel a patron has had too much. I worked at a convenient store for a month and had to refuse service to one guy because he came in the store drunk. Luckily, some regulars of mine were in there, too and I got a quick, non-verbal second opinion from them. I also think bartenders should have business cards from taxi services to give to patrons in this predicament, but I don’t run a bar.

In short, there are small things that society does to try to keep alcohol consumption under control. Perhaps there needs to be more.

Tracy

 

[Tracyms1974]

My point of view is not base on logics but love, a genuine & sincere love for other people. A love that goes beyond words, a love that goes the extra mile.

Yes i agree with you that there is no imperative for Christians to abstain from alcohol, there is no command in the Bible. Im only suggesting that Christians abstain from alcohol out of their love for other people, to possibly prevent one person from becoming an alcoholic, a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a teenager who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion.

Only appealing on the basis’s of love for other people.

Normally, what you do has little effect on other people. You could be sitting at the bar - say you’re the designated driver - and the lush beside you sees that you have no alcoholic drink. If he wants a drink, by jove, he’s going to order a drink. It does not matter what you do. Besides, even if you get yourself a Coke, he may even assume that it’s a rum and Coke. (It is a bar after all.)

Just be glad that you don’t have a problem with alcohol and that you are able to enjoy the flavor of it without a problem. I drank in college, but once I got away from that crowd I got away from the bottle, too. I was lucky. Now I’ll have an occasional Irish coffee. That’s really about the only drink I like. Not everybody has a problem with this stuff. Those who do just need rehab/medical attention.

Tracy

 

[Digitonomy]

Now, I don’t know how much good these warnings do - probably not much - but I think it shows an attempt on the part of the manufacturer to at least care about the consumer. Or it could be a liability requirement, who knows?

Bingo.

AHapka:

I don’t know anyone who decides how to run their lives based on the way I live mine. I just don’t think i’m that important. If they do, they are committing the sin of idolatry, since we should all seek to emulate Jesus alone.

We should all strive to witness by our example. We may also seek to emulate the example provided by saints or others we admire, such as our parents (this does not mean we are committing idolatry by worshiping them). It may not be easy to decide how to both do ones job and live the message of Christ if one is say a bounty hunter, but an example who has already taken this path may help to flesh out the proper choices.

 

[Lance]

If you come from an alcoholic background, the odds are stacked against you that you will be able to learn how to use alcohol and enjoy it properly. That is an impossibility for an alcoholic, I have a 28 yr old son who has never even tasted a sip of Alcohol, Alcoholism is rampant in both mine and my exhusband’s (he is sober 38 years) families. My son chooses not to drink, he is by no means hiding from it, In his case, the chance that he could have inherited ( According the The American Medical Association, it is hereditary) the tendancy towards Alcoholism is not worth the risk to him.

I think your son has made a very wise decision. He does not seem to be telling any one else that they should not drink like ‘emeraldisle’. It is and should remain a personal decision and no one should tell someone else it is a sin.

 

[Diana_Lynn]

Diana your son is in my prayers!

…But I feel sorrow for your story and will pray for your son.

…Addictions run in my family. If it is possible to be addicted to something, a member of my family will be addicted to it.

…May God set your son free from this addiction and may He give you help to cope with this very difficult situation.

Thank you all for your kindly prayers. May God Bless you all.

Deb, I too am sorry for your sorrow. I am keeping you and your family in my prayers. May God watch over them all, and grant them the strength and courage to overcome their addictions, and may your faith and conviction be a beacon for them to follow. May God comfort and console you as you pray with patience and fortitude for their blessed recovery.

EmeraldIsle, thank you for your kind words. May God grant you peace in your heart.

 

[Nordar]

I started this tread with a factual news report on the British Medical Associations(BMA) report about what is actually happening to people who take alcohol. The following statements are from the report;

“Heroin kills 700 people a year. Alcohol kills 700 people a month - the death-toll having doubled since the 1990s and set to worsen. Six thousand children were on alcohol treatment programmes last year; 1,000 of them were under the age of 14. There are 100 youngsters a week hospitalised through drink - most of them girls. When asked about their drinking habits, almost four out of 10 men in Britain emerged as hazardous drinkers. And those were the ones who admitted it. The cost of the damage done by drink is put by the government at £20bn a year.”

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7257346.stm

Imo taking a nice non-alcoholic drink instead of an alcoholic drink isn’t a sacrifice, just a simple but good way to show people that there is no need to take alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives. You know if as a result of drinking milk people died and their lives where destroyed in the same way as from taking alcohol, then drinking milk would have been banned years ago. However when it comes to the very serious problem re alcohol there seems to be such a tolerance and acceptance of a substance that kills people and destroys lives. Why?

Again I state that I believe the Bible gives Christians permission to drink wine but it also clearly states that drunkenness is a sin. However I personally would feel very guilty about taking alcohol because I know so many people are dying from taking alcohol and so many lives are being destroyed through alcohol use. I also know that I have no reason to take alcohol because there are so many good non-alcoholic drinks. So to me it’s not a sacrifice to take a nice non-alcoholic drink instead of an alcoholic drink but it is a good way to show people that we can live without taking alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives.

You are just not getting it, because you abstain from drinking is NOT going to make others abstain.
As I mentioned in a previous post I have a son who has never taken a drink nada, nothing. All his friends from high school called him TheGatorAid kid because that is all he drank.
He DID NOT influence any of his friends NOT to drink. To this day all his friends drink, they don’t understand why he does not although they accept it. But NONE of them abstained from alcohol because he did. It just does NOT work that way, great that you choose to drink just non alcoholic drinks but it is not going to show people that you can live that way. People don’t care what you are doing, you are not that important.

 

[blessedtoo]

I started this tread with a factual news report on the British Medical Associations(BMA) report about what is actually happening to people who take alcohol. The following statements are from the report;

“Heroin kills 700 people a year. Alcohol kills 700 people a month - the death-toll having doubled since the 1990s and set to worsen. Six thousand children were on alcohol treatment programmes last year; 1,000 of them were under the age of 14. There are 100 youngsters a week hospitalised through drink - most of them girls. When asked about their drinking habits, almost four out of 10 men in Britain emerged as hazardous drinkers. And those were the ones who admitted it. The cost of the damage done by drink is put by the government at £20bn a year.”

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7257346.stm

And as I said, this article does not draw the conlclusion you are asserting. It makes no comment on whether other people’s drinking habits effect the increase in alcoholism. It makes no comment on IF such an experiment has even been tried. In fact, the article draws NO conclusions at all.

Imo taking a nice non-alcoholic drink instead of an alcoholic drink isn’t a sacrifice, just a simple but good way to show people that there is no need to take alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives. You know if as a result of drinking milk people died and their lives where destroyed in the same way as from taking alcohol, then drinking milk would have been banned years ago. However when it comes to the very serious problem re alcohol there seems to be such a tolerance and acceptance of a substance that kills people and destroys lives. Why?

First: Alcohol does not kill people. Disease, accidents, emotional problems, etc, are the RESULTS of problem drinking or alcoholism. Aside from the very, very rare incidence of someone who dies from an overdose of alcohol (and BTW, one can actually die from an overdose of H2O as well), alcohol itself is not lethal.

For some folks, milk could also be considered a danger to their health. There are many folks who are allergic to milk and have violent and life threathening reactions. Your point again, makes no sense.

I know so many people are dying from taking alcohol and so many lives are being destroyed through alcohol use.

Once again, people do not die from “taking” or using alcohol. Some folks die from disease or accident as the RESULT of excessive abuse of alcohol. The number of folks who die from alcohol overdose is miniscule. Probably just about the same as those who die from allergic reactions to milk.

I also know that I have no reason to take alcohol because there are so many good non-alcoholic drinks. So to me it’s not a sacrifice to take a nice non-alcoholic drink instead of an alcoholic drink but it is a good way to show people that we can live without taking alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives

You are clearly not interested in an honest debate. You simply continue to repeat the same mantra. That’s fine. Knock yourself out with a coke. But don’t fool yourself about the reasons why you choose not to drink. You’re not fooling anyone else.

Good luck to you!

 

[emeraldisle]

You are just not getting it, because you abstain from drinking is NOT going to make others abstain.
As I mentioned in a previous post I have a son who has never taken a drink nada, nothing. All his friends from high school called him TheGatorAid kid because that is all he drank.
He DID NOT influence any of his friends NOT to drink. To this day all his friends drink, they don’t understand why he does not although they accept it. But NONE of them abstained from alcohol because he did. It just does NOT work that way, great that you choose to drink just non alcoholic drinks but it is not going to show people that you can live that way. People don’t care what you are doing, you are not that important.

I agree with you that im not important and I agree with you that no-one can “make” people stop taking alcohol or even “make” people not to start taking alcohol.

The British Medical Association(BMA) represents many people who are making a very sincere attempt to prevent people from dying from alcohol use and they are also trying to ensure that people don’t destroy their lives and other people’s lives through the use of alcohol. I applaud all these people and sincerely hope that their good efforts will have more success in preventing people from dying from alcohol use. Will Christians be willing to join the people in the BMA and people in other like organizations and do all they can to help in the campaign to save peoples lives? Is it really too much to ask Christians to show by example that people can live very well without taking alcohol? Or are Christians by their actions saying that alcohol must be a part of our lives and therefore we must just learn to live with the fact that people will sadly die from using alcohol and also just accept the fact that many lives will continue to be destroyed by alcohol use?

 

[Nordar]

I agree with you that im not important and I agree with you that no-one can “make” people stop taking alcohol or even “make” people not to start taking alcohol.

The British Medical Association(BMA) represents many people who are making a very sincere attempt to prevent people from dying from alcohol use and they are also trying to ensure that people don’t destroy their lives and other people’s lives through the use of alcohol. I applaud all these people and sincerely hope that their good efforts will have more success in preventing people from dying from alcohol use. Will Christians be willing to join the people in the BMA and people in other like organizations and do all they can to help in the campaign to save peoples lives? Is it really too much to ask Christians to show by example that people can live very well without taking alcohol? Or are Christians by their actions saying that alcohol must be a part of our lives and therefore we must just learn to live with the fact that people will sadly die from using alcohol and also just accept the fact that many lives will continue to be destroyed by alcohol use?

No one is accepting that alcohol abuse is OK, I have no clue where you are coming up with that.
The BMA is not doing anything different than what others in the medical communities have done and continue to do for Alcohol abuse. They do not have some miracle cure, People DO NOT die from using alcohol, Where are you getting that because people drink socially they are to blame for others abusing. *(That is what you are saying) Quite frankly the Christian part just slays me! I’m done with this, like someone else mentioned, your whole agenda here makes me wonder what your real reason is for your wacky ideas.

Take care

 

[Lance]

emeraldisle,
I have a question for you. How is it bad that my wife and I have a glass of wine each over dinner in our home then go into our family room and have another glass,relax and talk about our day and plans for tomorrow? After a glass of wine we feel a little more relaxed and are more likely to say what if anything is bothering us about our jobs, kids, grandkids, friends, life, etc. I am basicly an up tight person and I definately relax after a drink or two. I don’t care if you drink or not but when you tell me that I am a bad person for enjoying alcohol I get offended. I don’t drink to excess, my family has never suffered because of my drinking and I have made some very good and life long friends at pubs(most of them very good Catholics).

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldisle,
I have a question for you. How is it bad that my wife and I have a glass of wine each over dinner in our home then go into our family room and have another glass,relax and talk about our day and plans for tomorrow? After a glass of wine we feel a little more relaxed and are more likely to say what if anything is bothering us about our jobs, kids, grandkids, friends, life, etc. I am basicly an up tight person and I definately relax after a drink or two. I don’t care if you drink or not but when you tell me that I am a bad person for enjoying alcohol I get offended. I don’t drink to excess, my family has never suffered because of my drinking and I have made some very good and life long friends at pubs(most of them very good Catholics).

I have stated the following a number of times in this tread; “ I believe the Bible gives Christians permission to drink wine but it also clearly states that drunkenness is a sin.”

I find it difficult to understand why you have to take alcohol in order to communicate to your wife.

In times of crisis people quite rightly determine to use every available option/means to resolve or overcome the crisis situation. In the UK there is a crisis re alcohol and I believe Christians should be very concerned about this serious crisis, people are dying and lives are being destroyed. The BMA is very concerned about this alcohol crisis and they are doing things to try and resolve this serious crisis. However I think Christians should be setting the example and taking the lead in doing something to resolve this crisis. Now I know that not every Christian can get involved in projects to help people who are dying from using alcohol and whose lives are being destroyed by alcohol. But surely every Christian can do the most simple and easy thing and that is don’t take alcohol. They can clearly demonstrate by example that there is no need to take alcohol.

 

[Lance]

I have stated the following a number of times in this tread; “ I believe the Bible gives Christians permission to drink wine but it also clearly states that drunkenness is a sin.”

I find it difficult to understand why you have to take alcohol in order to communicate to your wife.

In times of crisis people quite rightly determine to use every available option/means to resolve or overcome the crisis situation. In the UK there is a crisis re alcohol and I believe Christians should be very concerned about this serious crisis, people are dying and lives are being destroyed. The BMA is very concerned about this alcohol crisis and they are doing things to try and resolve this serious crisis. However I think Christians should be setting the example and taking the lead in doing something to resolve this crisis. Now I know that not every Christian can get involved in projects to help people who are dying from using alcohol and whose lives are being destroyed by alcohol. But surely every Christian can do the most simple and easy thing and that is don’t take alcohol. They can clearly demonstrate by example that there is no need to take alcohol.

You have your opinion and I have mine and one of my opinions is that I have wasted enough time on this.

 

[Humanum_Genus]

The Bible says, drunkeness is a sin, enough said.