The Problem With Prejudices That Target the Rich

[VanitasVanitatum]

That seems like an inordinate attachment to money.

 

[TULIPed]

I also would then have to wonder about the state of the Church, given its wealth. Has Satan then prevailed over the Church because it has wealth?

It’s a great point. To take it a step further - it’s interesting how many wealthy - indeed, fabulously wealthy - people in the Bible God used to further his kingdom in one way or another. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, David, Solomon, Josiah, Joseph of Arimathea, Lydia, Philemon …the list goes on and on.

If wealth was disqualifying in and of itself, you would think the only heroes on the Bible would be those in abject poverty (of which there are many to be sure). There’s no question though that wealth increases the degree of difficulty in following Christ. All the more then is God glorified when a rich person picks up their cross to follow him.

 

[TMC]

Your interpretation is incorrect. The rich man is in torment because when he was alive he failed to use his wealth for the good of others. Lazarus is where he is because of his earthly sufferings.

Says who? The text says what it says, and it says nothing about the rich man having any fault other than that he “received what was good during [his] lifetime”. Your interpretation is not unreasonable, but it is certainly not the only one, and it is not found in the text.

No where does scripture condemn wealth in and of itself. It is only how people deal with wealth that it involves a moral question. ProdglArchitect is correct in what he says.

I disagree. Scripture has many condemnations and criticisms of the rich. I have point to just three obvious ones, there are many more.

 

[Magnanimity]

However, that does not mean that the system in inherently flawed

It seems to me that many popes in their encyclicals, at least since Leo XIII have been pointing out inherent flaws in both communism and capitalism. There is something to what @Eric_Hyom and @TMC are saying here. Below are some relevant quotes. To the typical, Western capitalist mind, I imagine these quotes will speak some discomfort.

Rerum Novarum - Pope Leo XIII
46. We have seen that this great labor question cannot be solved save by assuming as a principle that private ownership must be held sacred and inviolable. The law, therefore, should favor ownership, and its policy should be to induce as many as possible of the people to become owners.
47. Many excellent results will follow from this; and, first of all, property will certainly become more equitably divided.

Quadragesimo Anno - Pope Pius XI
57. the riches that economic-social developments constantly increase ought to be so distributed among individual persons and classes that the common advantage of all, which Leo XIII had praised, will be safeguarded; in other words, that the common good of all society will be kept inviolate. By this law of social justice, one class is forbidden to exclude the other from sharing in the benefits.
58. To each, therefore, must be given his own share of goods, and the distribution of created goods, which, as every discerning person knows, is laboring today under the gravest evils due to the huge disparity between the few exceedingly rich and the unnumbered propertyless, must be effectively called back to and brought into conformity with the norms of the common good, that is, social justice.
61. Therefore, with all our strength and effort we must strive that at least in the future the abundant fruits of production will accrue equitably to those who are rich and will be distributed in ample sufficiency among the workers.

Mater et Magistra Pope John XXIII
115. Now, if ever, is the time to insist on a more widespread distribution of property, in view of the rapid economic development of an increasing number of States. It will not be difficult for the body politic, by the adoption of various techniques of proved efficiency, to pursue an economic and social policy which facilitates the widest possible distribution of private property in terms of durable consumer goods, houses, land, tools and equipment (in the case of craftsmen and owners of family farms), and shares in medium and large business concerns. This policy is in fact being pursued with considerable success by several of the socially and economically advanced nations.
168. Increase in production and productive efficiency is, of course, sound policy, and indeed a vital necessity. However, it is no less necessary—and justice itself demands—that the riches produced be distributed fairly among all members of the political community. This means that everything must be done to ensure that social progress keeps pace with economic progress. Again, every sector of the economy—agriculture, industry and the services—must progress evenly and simultaneously.

 

[TMC]

Is it the case that a Christian is expected to spend everything he earns during his working life? Is he expected to enter into old age with no assets, no pension, no savings, so that his relatives must take care of him for the rest of his life?

I am not saying that, but this (being rich) is a topic Jesus spoke about directly. The young rich man had kept all the commandments, what did Jesus tell him - sell all your goods. That is a pretty direct statement.

 

[Magnanimity]

{continued}

Sollicitudo Rei Socialis - Pope John Paul II
9. We are therefore faced with a serious problem of unequal distribution of the means of subsistence originally meant for everybody, and thus also an unequal distribution of the benefits deriving from them. And this happens not through the fault of the needy people, and even less through a sort of inevitability dependent on natural conditions or circumstances as a whole.
28. Of course, the difference between “being” and “having,” the danger inherent in a mere multiplication or replacement of things possessed compared to the value of “being,” need not turn into a contradiction. One of the greatest injustices in the contemporary world consists precisely in this: that the ones who possess much are relatively few and those who possess almost nothing are many. It is the injustice of the poor distribution of the goods and services originally intended for all.

Caritas in Veritate – Pope Benedict XVI
42. The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions , some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed.

Laudato Si’ – Pope Francis
94. The rich and the poor have equal dignity, for “the Lord is the maker of them all” ( Prov 22:2). “He himself made both small and great” ( Wis 6:7), and “he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good” ( Mt 5:45). … That means that apart from the ownership of property, rural people must have access to means of technical education, credit, insurance, and markets”.
112. Yet we can once more broaden our vision. We have the freedom needed to limit and direct technology; we can put it at the service of another type of progress, one which is healthier, more human, more social, more integral. Liberation from the dominant technocratic paradigm does in fact happen sometimes, for example, when cooperatives of small producers adopt less polluting means of production, and opt for a non-consumerist model of life, recreation and community.

Some Catholics call all this economic and social teachings of recent popes “distributism” by which they believe the church has clearly tried to stake out a middle ground between communism and capitalism. Trying to defend some form of laissez faire capitalism (unbridled) is likely not going to jibe with recent church teaching on these issues. It couldn’t be any plainer that the church is advocating much more distribution of wealth than is currently being realized in economies like that of the U.S.

 

[vsedriver]

Your interpretation is not unreasonable, but it is certainly not the only one, and it is not found in the text.

but it is the one that is taught by the Church. The Church has never taught that the rich man was in hell simply because he was rich. Now if you can point to any teaching by the Catholic Church that says possessing wealth deems you to be condemned I will revise my interpretation.

I disagree. Scripture has many condemnations and criticisms of the rich. I have point to just three obvious ones, there are many more.

I agree. Scripture condemns some rich people for their lack of generosity and their love of money. But no where is wealth itself condemned. Jesus had many wealthy friends and at no time did he condemn them.

 

[TMC]

but it is the one that is taught by the Church. The Church has never taught that the rich man was in hell simply because he was rich. Now if you can point to any teaching by the Catholic Church that says possessing wealth deems you to be condemned I will revise my interpretation.

Can you point to any teaching by the Catholic Church that mandates your interpretation?

I agree. Scripture condemns some rich people for their lack of generosity and their love of money. But no where is wealth itself condemned. Jesus had many wealthy friends and at no time did he condemn them.

Jesus was not generally into condemning folks. But he did advise the rich to sell their good and give the money to the poor, and he did make several definitive statements about being rich (and none of them were positive).

 

[TULIPed]

How much time have you spent on a church finance committee? If you have done so, you’ve probably seen a breakdown of exactly how churches are funded. You’ve seen giving broken down by amount and the associated number of givers (among other things). You’d know that - on average - 20% of the congregation gives upwards of 50% of the total budget (in many cases it’s more - a lot more).

I wonder what would happen if we kicked those folks out for being too rich?

 

[LilyM]

Is it the case that a Christian is expected to spend everything he earns during his working life? Is he expected to enter into old age with no assets, no pension, no savings, so that his relatives must take care of him for the rest of his life?

Is it wrong to build up an estate and leave a large sum to the Church when you die?

Are we seeing a new “sola” theology here? Sola poverty: only poverty can save you? Accumulate wealth and you are lost.

Jesus praised the poor widow who gave away the last two coins - all she possessed in the world - more than the rich who were giving far more but did not, in St Teresa of Calcutta’s words, “give until it hurts”.

And he did tell us not to worry about tomorrow, to be like the birds and the flowers that do not work or store up.for the future.

Those of us who have families have a duty to do what we can to provide foe them, but He never praised obscene wealth, certainly.

 

[JimG]

I am not saying that, but this (being rich) is a topic Jesus spoke about directly. The young rich man had kept all the commandments, what did Jesus tell him - sell all your goods. That is a pretty direct statement.

Yes, that was Jesus’ recommendation to the rich young man. Is it his recommendation for all Christians? Some religious orders do indeed take vows of poverty. Their members own nothing. If all Christians are to follow this advice, I suppose the entire Christian world would resemble a worldwide monastery. What then would become of the Church’s worldwide charitable organizations?

 

[LilyM]

TMC:

I am not saying that, but this (being rich) is a topic Jesus spoke about directly. The young rich man had kept all the commandments, what did Jesus tell him - sell all your goods. That is a pretty direct statement.

Yes, that was Jesus’ recommendation to the rich young man. Is it his recommendation for all Christians? Some religious orders do indeed take vows of poverty. Their members own nothing. If all Christians are to follow this advice, I suppose the entire Christian world would resemble a worldwide monastery. What then would become of the Church’s worldwide charitable organizations?

Earning money so as to do charity with it is different to earning money so as to blow lots of it on needless luxuries while giving a fraction to help others.

 

[TMC]

Earning money so as to do charity with it is different to earning money so as to blow lots of it on needless luxuries while giving a fraction to help others.

If you earn money and give it to charity then you would not be rich, but I agree that would be consistent with what Jesus told the young rich man.

 

[TMC]

How much time have you spent on a church finance committee? If you have done so, you’ve probably seen a breakdown of exactly how churches are funded. You’ve seen giving broken down by amount and the associated number of givers (among other things). You’d know that - on average - 20% of the congregation gives upwards of 50% of the total budget (in many cases it’s more - a lot more).

I wonder what would happen if we kicked those folks out for being too rich?

Who said anything about kicking folks out of the Church? Or asking people not to donate money. If rich people give their money to the Church, that would be consistent with Jesus’ instruction. I have not said differently.

 

[TULIPed]

If rich people give their money to the Church, that would be consistent with Jesus’ instruction. I have not said differently.

Zaccheus:

Jesus didn’t condemn the rich. He condemned the love of money. Not the same thing.

I don’t think that is true.

Even if it were, its hard to get and stay rich without a love of money. At a minimum, you have to love money more than helping others.

I must’ve misinterpreted what you wrote earlier. It sure seems like you were arguing that Jesus condemns the rich. So he doesn’t condemn you if you’re rich - but only if you give your money to the church? How much money do you have to give if you’re rich not to be condemned? Is a tithe sufficient? Half? All?

Me thinks perhaps there’s more at play here than just being rich. I hope there is - because if you’ve got enough money and time to spend writing on this board, you’re incredibly wealthy relative to the rest of the world, no?

 

[TMC]

I must’ve misinterpreted what you wrote earlier. It sure seems like you were arguing that Jesus condemns the rich. So he doesn’t condemn you if you’re rich - but only if you give your money to the church? How much money do you have to give if you’re rich not to be condemned? Is a tithe sufficient? Half? All?

Me thinks perhaps there’s more at play here than just being rich. I hope there is - because if you’ve got enough money and time to spend writing on this board, you’re incredibly wealthy relative to the rest of the world, no?

Jesus says to give “all.” Maybe it would be enough to give until you are no longer rich, but He says “all.”

As to those that give to the Church - I am not saying its OK to be rich if you give some money away. I am just acknowledging the fact that if you give all your money away, you are no longer rich.

I have not cast aspersions on anyone’s else’s personal situation, so I am not sure why you are questioning mine. I am happy to admit that I fall short of Christ’s standards in many ways. But that does not mean that I pretend He teaches other than He did. I can recognize my failures without justifying them by trying to “spin” the teachings of Jesus.

 

[JimG]

Earning money so as to do charity with it is different to earning money so as to blow lots of it on needless luxuries while giving a fraction to help others.

One earns money to be able to support oneself and family, as well as to give regularly to charity. A prudent person would also set aside an amount to be saved and invested regularly in order to provide for future exigencies. It is a slow, steady, process. Spending money on luxuries, even small unnecessary luxuries, can ruin the process.

To quote a maxim from financial advisors:
There are only two sources of income: people working, and money working.

 

[whatistrue]

Jesus says to give “all.”

He told one specific person that, possibly to make a point relative to the way that one specific person thought. Can you give me a verse that says that it is required of all rich people?

 

[TMC]

He told one specific person that, possibly to make a point relative to the way that one specific person thought. Can you give me a verse that says that it is required of all rich people?

Seriously? So Jesus meant that as a private teaching for just that one guy. So why was it included in all three Synoptic Gospels? Maybe the Beatitudes were just meant for those folks who happened to be standing around the Mount that day.

 

[vsedriver]

Can you point to any teaching by the Catholic Church that mandates your interpretation?

well you are free to disagree with Pope Francis’ interpretation as I quote him, “Hence, he will be condemned not because of his wealth, but for being incapable of feeling compassion for Lazarus and for not coming to his aid.” POPE FRANCIS GENERAL AUDIENCE, St Peter’s Square, Wednesday, 18 May 2016

I suppose you can claim it isn’t a ‘mandated’ interpretation but if the Pope teaches it I will stand by the Pope’s interpretation.

Jesus was not generally into condemning folks. But he did advise the rich to sell their good and give the money to the poor, and he did make several definitive statements about being rich (and none of them were positive)

once again, every time Jesus advised the rich to sell their goods is still not a condemnation of wealth but the ATTACHMENT to wealth. Jesus told the rich young man to sell everything because he knew the guy was attached to his stuff. But at no time did Jesus teach that everyone must sell their stuff to be saved. Nor did he teach that all the poor will be saved simply because they are poor.