The Protestant hijacking of St. Augustine

[Romans828]

I am a voice crying in the wilderness, who agrees whole heartedly with you that true faith will produce good works. Scripture is abundantly clear on that. The defining issue, however, is whether the good works are requisite for, or a result of salvation. Is it ‘do’ or ‘done’. Is salvation by human accomplishment or divine achievement?
And quite honestly, Mgrfin, I’m not interested in the least in what some Protestants believe, but only what God has revealed through His Word.

Thanks

 

[estesbob]

I am a voice crying in the wilderness, who agrees whole heartedly with you that true faith will produce good works. Scripture is abundantly clear on that. The defining issue, however, is whether the good works are requisite for, or a result of salvation. Is it ‘do’ or ‘done’. Is salvation by human accomplishment or divine achievement?
And quite honestly, Mgrfin, I’m not interested in the least in what some Protestants believe, but only what God has revealed through His Word.

Thanks

Based on who’s interpretation of the Word?

There is no doubt that a man who rejects Christ will not be saved no matter how nice he is to little old ladies crossing the street. However a man who has Faith is Christ will not be saved if starts shoving little old ladies under moving cars.

I agree that good works flow from Faith -however the man who sins rejects Christ just as surely as the man who never accepted him in the first places. To beleive otherwise ignores huge chunks of Scripture and 2,000 years of teachings of the Church. Fatih an works are so intertwined that you cant seperate the two. Protestants present it, however, as an either or proposition. Catholics know its both.

 

[Romans828]

Based on who’s interpretation of the Word?

There is no doubt that a man who rejects Christ will not be saved no matter how nice he is to little old ladies crossing the street. However a man who has Faith is Christ will not be saved if starts shoving little old ladies under moving cars.

I agree that good works flow from Faith -however the man who sins rejects Christ just as surely as the man who never accepted him in the first places. To beleive otherwise ignores huge chunks of Scripture and 2,000 years of teachings of the Church. Fatih an works are so intertwined that you cant seperate the two. Protestants present it, however, as an either or proposition. Catholics know its both.

Hey Bob,

Well, what saith Blessed Augustine?
“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already. Faith is indeed distinguished from works, even as the apostle says, “that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law:” Romans 3:28 (Gospel of John, Tractate 25).

Thanks

 

[estesbob]

Hey Bob,

Well, what saith Blessed Augustine?
“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already. Faith is indeed distinguished from works, even as the apostle says, “that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law:” Romans 3:28 (Gospel of John, Tractate 25).

Thanks

Note that Augustine very specifically talks about works of the law which is a direct reference to the Jewish religious laws Also the passage you have quoted is from chapter 18 of his work On Grace and Free Will. newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

The title of Chapter 18 is :

Faith Without Good Works is Not Sufficient for Salvation.

He follows this up with Chapter 19:

How is Eternal Life Both a Reward for Service and a Free Gift of Grace?

You have played the usual game of taking an out of context quote and interpreting it to fit your views. Given the title of the chapter you took your quote from i fond your interpreation hillarious.

 

[Sixtus]

I think it is great that our St Augustine [and his mother St Monica] are of such universal appeal that they can be adopted and quoted by groups who are diametrically opposed to Catholicism.

Just goes to show what a good ‘all rounder’ he is. Small wonder he is a Doctor of the Church

 

[Romans828]

Note that Augustine very specifically talks about works of the law which is a direct reference to the Jewish religious laws Also the passage you have quoted is from chapter 18 of his work On Grace and Free Will. newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

The title of Chapter 18 is :

Faith Without Good Works is Not Sufficient for Salvation.

He follows this up with Chapter 19:

How is Eternal Life Both a Reward for Service and a Free Gift of Grace?

.

You have played the usual game of taking an out of context quote and interpreting it to fit your views. Given the title of the chapter you took your quote from i fond your interpreation hillarious.

Actually, Bob, the source that I had cited is correct.
newadvent.org/fathers/1701025.htm (see paragraph 12)

I accept your apology. Also, you may which to read the Pauline epistles for yourself. There you will find that Paul uses the term ‘law’ and ‘commandment’ (ie. the moral law) interchangably.
(Romans 7 would be a good starting point).

 

[estesbob]

Actually, Bob, the source that I had cited is correct.
newadvent.org/fathers/1701025.htm (see paragraph 12)

I accept your apology. Also, you may which to read the Pauline epistles for yourself. There you will find that Paul uses the term ‘law’ and ‘commandment’ (ie. the moral law) interchangably.
(Romans 7 would be a good starting point).

I didn’t say you had not quoted him right. I said you took him out of context’

It is absolutely hilarious that you posted a quote from St. Augustine claiming he believed we are saved by faith alone when the title of the chapter you pulled the quote from was:

Faith Without Good Works is Not Sufficient for Salvation.

I know you have not addressed that in your above comment but then there really is nothing you can say.

 

[mgrfin]

I didn’t say you had not quoted him right. I said you took him out of context’

It is absolutely hilarious that you posted a quote from St. Augustine claiming he believed we are saved by faith alone when the title of the chapter you pulled the quote from was:

Faith Without Good Works is Not Sufficient for Salvation.

I know you have not addressed that in your above comment but then there really is nothing you can say.

 

[mgrfin]

I am a voice crying in the wilderness, who agrees whole heartedly with you that true faith will produce good works. Scripture is abundantly clear on that. The defining issue, however, is whether the good works are requisite for, or a result of salvation. Is it ‘do’ or ‘done’. Is salvation by human accomplishment or divine achievement?
And quite honestly, Mgrfin, I’m not interested in the least in what some Protestants believe, but only what God has revealed through His Word.
Thanks

Well, Romans828, you are right about that. Protestants believe all over the lot. It took Trent 33 canons to cover the various of what the heretics taught.

Catholicism says that something more than ‘faith alone’, (meaning that something else is required) to cooperate to obtain the grace of justification. More than faith is required in the Gospels, to say that faith alone is commanded in these same Gospels is not reading them correctly.

Protestants pride themselves on their understanding of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - but they are not reading them correctly if ‘faith alone’ is commanded there. They twist Romans 3:28, and by this contortion, they arrive at this false notion of santification.

Jesus was given to us by God, not as someone just to trust, but also as a legislator, whom we are obliged to obey.

Trent was clear that OSAS was anathema. Canon 23 states that “to say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, let him be anathema.”

Santity and justice is increased by God through good works, else the Gospels fail; and these works are not the fruits of justification, but the cause of the increase.

Luther was so bold as to teach “that in every good work man sins at least venially, or more importantly, mortally, and hence earns eternal damnation” Eternal damnation for performing a good deed???

Rather than searching out some obscure passage from the Patristic fathers concerning ‘sola fide’, to prove that Luther has some basis for his theory, I would like you to concentrate on what Fr. Martin Luther taught, and present and justify that here.

Are you up to the challenge?

peace

 

[Delraek]

Delrae, good observation.
The all important difference, however, is whether any of these works, which are an outpouring of your faith, are viewed by you as being salvific in nature. Do these works, motivated by love, contribute in the least to your salvation, or are they motivated by a heart of love and gratitude for the salvation that our Lord has provided freely to those who believe (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Romans 6:23, 10:9-10, Gal. 2:21, Eph 2:8-9, etc)?
When it comes to a mixture of faith and works to merit salvation, the Scriptures reveal that they are like oil and vinegar:

“Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him that does not work but beileves on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (Romans 4:4-5).

“And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work” (Romans 11:6)

If one work is added to the equation, then it is not of grace, God’s unmerited favor, and salvation is not a free gift, which Scriptures clearly indicates that it is (see Romans Chapters 3-6).

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Thanks

Well, first of all, we are saved by grace and I don’t think anyone in this discussion would deny that!

But if works of mercy don’t help us reach heaven, than how do you interpret these passages from Matthew?

Mt 25:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mt 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If we have opportunities to do works of mercy and consistently choose not to, would we still enter heaven? (I’m making the assumption that we have “faith”.)

 

[Protestant101]

I’m sorry, but my graduate degree is in finance. I am not a walking encyclopedia on Catholicism, but I’ll be happy to give you a reference on the topic of Scripture and Tradition.

The First Vatican Council 1870, he dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, covers this particular issue.

I haven’t researched Augustine. Maybe you might Google him; that’s what I would do.

peace,

You don’t need a degree for the question that I asked; and besides, it was directed to all other forumparticipants as well as you. All you need to do is stick to the subject of this thread. I am genuinely interested in what Augustine taught re

"“The Bible is subservient to the Catholic Church?”

If anyone can provide an answer; I would really be interested.

 

[st_michael]

If anyone can provide an answer; I would really be interested.

The Catholic Church states the “teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on” (DEI VERBUM, 10)

 

[onenow1]

Quote=OneNow1,You may not like these quotes but its a start.

“Since by Christ’s favor we are Catholic Christians:”
Letter to Vitalis, 217,5,16, 427 A.D.

“By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but you will not come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the Catholic Church.”
Sermons, 3, 391 A.D.

“Tell us straight out that you do not believe in the Gospel of Christ; for you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel.”
Against Faustus, 17, 3, 400 A.D.

“Do you claim to be strong? You will be beaten by beasts. Do you claim speed? Flies are faster. Do you claim beauty? What great beauty there is in a peafowl’s feathers. How are you better, then, than these? By the image of GOD. And where is GOD’s image? In your mind, in your intellect.”
Homilies on the Gospel of John, 3,4, 416 A.D.

“Adam sleeps that Eve may be formed; Christ dies that the Church may be formed. Eve is formed from the side of the sleeping Adam; the side of the dead Christ is pierced by the lance, so that the Sacraments may flow out, of which the Church is formed.”
Homilies on the Gospel of John, 9,10, 416 A.D

“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and the death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the Apostolic Chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of teaching authority.”
The Advantage of Believing, 391 AD

Peace,OneNow1

 

[mgrfin]

The Catholic Church states the “teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on” (DEI VERBUM, 10)

The title of this tread is 'Protestant hijacking of St. Augustine". If you want to start another tread, do so.

Just a point, however:

“But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.”

Interpreting the Bible, or tradition has been entrusted the Magisterium of the Church.

The interpreting Bible and Tradition is the responsibility of the teaching office of the Churchm explaining it faithfully.

I think you are reading too much into “This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it” to mean that the Bible is above the teaching office of the Church. It doesn’t say that at all.

peace

 

[Protestant101]

Luther was so bold as to teach “that in every good work man sins at least venially, or more importantly, mortally, and hence earns eternal damnation” **Eternal damnation for performing a good deed??? **

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and **in thy name done many wonderful works? **
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Bishopite]

You don’t need a degree for the question that I asked; and besides, it was directed to all other forumparticipants as well as you. All you need to do is stick to the subject of this thread. I am genuinely interested in what Augustine taught re

If anyone can provide an answer; I would really be interested.

I’m sorry, I don’t know what is your question?
What do you want to know about Augustine?
I can tell you that he was for sure NOT a Protestant. He was a Catholic Bishop and believed in Apostolic succession, baptismal regeration and the necessity of baptism, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and sacred authoritative Tradition (paradosis)…

“[T]he custom [of not rebaptizing converts] . . . may be supposed to have had its origin in Apostolic Tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the Apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings” (*On Baptism, Against the Donatists *5:23[31] [A.D. 400])."

“But the admonition that he [Cyprian] gives us, ‘that we should go back to the fountain, that is, to Apostolic Tradition, and thence turn the channel of truth to our times,’ is most excellent, and should be followed without hesitation” (ibid., 5:26[37])."

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (*Letter to Januarius *[A.D. 400"

Interesting isn’t it that Augustine believed in the authority of councils? All of the councils of Augustines day were Catholic.

That Augustine believed in the authority of Catholic councils is no surprise, for he also believed in the authority of the Catholic church…

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard” (*The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390])"

“If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, ‘I do not believe’? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so” (*Against the Letter of Mani Called ‘The Foundation’ *5:6)."

 

[st_michael]

The title of this tread is 'Protestant hijacking of St. Augustine". If you want to start another tread, do so.

OK!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2658602#post2658602

The post below is from the new thread… Thanks…

I agree the Church is the official interpretor… The Church does not have the authority to teach outside of the written word or Apostolic Tradition… therefore it is not above the word of God but serves it… All three work in harmony with each other and one cannot be placed above the other.
Explained in another way… the Bible serves… Apostolic Tradition serves and the Magistarium serves…

The Traditions, oral or written, is taught through the Magistarium… The magistarium is nothing without the teaching of Jesus… and this teaching has been handed down in written form (Holy Scripture) and by word of mouth (Apostolic Tradition)…

 

[mgrfin]

You don’t need a degree for the question that I asked; and besides, it was directed to all other forumparticipants as well as you. All you need to do is stick to the subject of this thread. I am genuinely interested in what Augustine taught re

If anyone can provide an answer; I would really be interested.

Well, if a degree in religion is not required, then why don’t you find the answer.

The question is off topic, and I have been trying to bring people back to the question before us.

You had an Augustinan fiasco before, and had us looking for a reference, and when faced with it, you backed down.

Back to the thread.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

peace,

Okay here is your reference, and I would like an honorary S.T.D. as a reward.

St. Augustine: “I should not believe the Gospel unless I were impelled thereto by the authority of the Catholic Church”
Contra ep. fundament., c.5

peace

 

[Protestant101]

Thankyou; I hereby confer upon you, by the “authority” vested in me, the honorary degree of “STD” which I presume means “Standard Textbook Dude” May God bless you, and keep you, and make His face shine upon you.