The Protestant hijacking of St. Augustine

[Delraek]

Well, Delraek, some may say that we are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone. Or put another way, good works are the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation.

“For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

St. Augustine clearly distinguishes faith from works, in his commentary on John 6 (found at newadvent.org):

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already. Faith is indeed distinguished from works, even as the apostle says, “that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law:” Romans 3:28" ,

Thanks

So, you don’t believe that we are saved by faith alone?? Please explain!

I thought “works of the law” were the Jewish laws that the Pharisees imposed on the other Jews in believing that only those “laws” were necessary for salvation. The narrow-minded pharisees didn’t get that God expected the Jews (or should I say “all of Israel”) to be a light to the rest of the world (the gentiles).

I believe James is referring to “works of mercy” not the old Jewish “works of the law”… (which makes a heck of a lot more sense to me! )

 

[Romans828]

So, you don’t believe that we are saved by faith alone?? Please explain!

I thought “works of the law” were the Jewish laws that the Pharisees imposed on the other Jews in believing that only those “laws” were necessary for salvation. The narrow-minded pharisees didn’t get that God expected the Jews (or should I say “all of Israel”) to be a light to the rest of the world (the gentiles).

I believe James is referring to “works of mercy” not the old Jewish “works of the law”… (which makes a heck of a lot more sense to me! )

Well, Delrae, you’ll find that St. Paul uses the term “law” almost interchangably with “commandments”, ie.
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would have not known sin except through the law. For I would have not known covetousness (cf Ex 20:17) unless the law said’You shall not covet’. But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died…” (Romans 7:7-9).

St. James, too, is clearly referencing the moral law (not the Jewish ceremonial laws or man-made traditions that Jesus gave them a good dressing down over).

“If you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’, you do well…For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said ‘Do not commit adultery’ also said, ‘Do not commit murder’” (James 2:8, 10, 11)

Sorry for the confusion, but I do believe with every fiber of my being that we are saved by faith alone. Ergo, the reason for quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 previously. Any Spirit-provoked good work that I do is motivated by a heart of love and gratitude toward a perfect Saviour who, through His one perfect sacrificial act of mercy, delivered me from a certain hell and a Christless eternity.

Thanks

 

[mgrfin]

Well, Delraek, some may say that we are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone. Or put another way, good works are the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation.

“For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

St. Augustine clearly distinguishes faith from works, in his commentary on John 6 (found at newadvent.org):

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already. Faith is indeed distinguished from works, even as the apostle says, “that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law:” Romans 3:28" ,

Thanks

Just so that you understand the Catholic faith in the question of justification, let me quote you Canon 9, Council of Trent.

“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema”.

Of course, the reformers did not believe in free will. Some of them believed in predestination. They believed that the soul of man remained a dung heap, and that God did not really wash our sins away, just covered them over. “Simul justus et peccator”. (A sinner and justified at the same time).

Of course, the reformers forgot that the meaning and interpretation of Scripture was left to the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Church has correctly interpreted Romans 3:28, according to the Canons of Trent.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Salvation is by faith. But salvation involves works. If you have no works then you have no faith. No one does works in a vacuum. He who performs works does so because he has faith.

Faith and works are the same thing.

Works are the vital signs of faith. The diagnosis is easy. Walk up the patient. (You must be omniscient.) Check for works. If there are none then there is no faith.

Why does everyone keep trying to separate the two?

So, you want to simplify it. You are stating the Catholic position, justification is by faith and works, and not by faith only.

If, according to Luther, his church fell or stood on the doctrine of justification by faith only, when can we beginning scheduling lots of admittances into the Church?

peace

 

[estesbob]

Sorry for the confusion, but I do believe with every fiber of my being that we are saved by faith alone. Ergo, the reason for quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 previously. Any Spirit-provoked good work that I do is motivated by a heart of love and gratitude toward a perfect Saviour who, through His one perfect sacrificial act of mercy, delivered me from a certain hell and a Christless eternity.

Thanks

Can one who rejects God be saved?

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE=Romans828;2642503]

How is not fulfilling the commands of Christ regarding love of God and love of neighbor not performing ‘works’.

Where does it say in the New Testament that we are saved by ‘faith only’. This is the net Luther got caught in, and couldn’t climb out of.

Works of charity, works of mortification, and self sacrifice, works of piety and devotion, works of faith, and hope and confidence in our Lord Jesus Christ, earn us salvation, with baptism and repentance for our sins, which is also a good work.

So you are guaranteed that you have been saved from hell, and a Christless eternity? Where does it say in the New Testament that you are guaranteed you will be saved regardless of your good works, and by your ‘faith only’? Look really hard, cause you won’t find any scriptural passages regarding ‘salvation by faith only’, or anything scriptural for any guarantees that you are getting eternal salvation by your faith only.

Luther led you down the wrong path. He set himself of as the final arbiter of what the Gospels, and the Epistles say. And of course, he was wrong. Faith without good works is dead. James not only said it, but it is throughtout the New Testament. Road to Perdition is the road that Luther paved.

St. Paul fought the good fight until the end of his life, and eventually he gave his life for Jesus. The prize was therefore guaranteed him because of his good work of martyrdom.

So the Holy Spirit is inspiring you in your reading of St. Paul? Really? Do you speak in tongues, and cast out devils, and cure the sick as well?

Luther left you with one leg to stand on, and without the Catholic Church, eventually you fall down with him.

peace

 

[Protestant101]

As usual 101, you get backed into a corner, and you hem and haw.

You are not a serious person, and no one should believe anything you have to say.

peace

If this is the best you can muster; I dishonestly wonder what there is for me to reply to. I am grateful that I do not have this problem with all forum members.

 

[mgrfin]

If this is the best you can muster; I dishonestly wonder what there is for me to reply to. I am grateful that I do not have this problem with all forum members.

What problem do you have with forum members? That you are sincerely seeking the truth. Or here to confront?

Tell me you are sinceerly seeking the truth, and I will apologize for saying you are insincere.

pax vobiscum

 

[Protestant101]

What problem do you have with forum members? That you are sincerely seeking the truth. Or here to confront?

Tell me you are sinceerly seeking the truth, and I will apologize for saying you are insincere.

pax vobiscum

I am sincerely seeking the truth.

 

[mgrfin]

I am sincerely seeking the truth.

Then, I apologize.

peace

 

[Romans828]

Mgrfin,
As for your query as to the scriptural passages regarding ‘salvation by faith only’ :

“God so loved the world that He gave His Only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved” Acts 16:31.

“I am the Resurrection and the Life, he that believes in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” John 11:25

“And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes in Him, may have everlasting life.” John 6:40

"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness.
Romans 3:24

“Therefore being justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1

“That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.” Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith: and shun not the righteousness of God, for it is a blessing in two ways; because it is easy, and also open to all men" Romans 3:26 (with attached commentary by Chrysostom).

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.” After speaking of the wages of sin, in the case of the blessings, he has not kept to the same order (τάξιν, rank or relation): for he does not say, the wages of good deeds, “but the gift of God;” to show, that it was not of themselves that they were freed, nor was it a due they received, neither yet a return, nor a recompense of labors, but by grace all these things came about. And so there was a superiority for this cause also, in that He did not free them only, or change their condition for a better, but that He did it without any labor or trouble upon their part: and that He not only freed them, but also gave them much more than before, and that through His Son. Romans 6:23 (with commentary by Chrysostom).

“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared.” How? "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
“Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.” Thus we need the Spirit abundantly.
“That being justified by His grace”—again by grace and not by debt—“we may be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
At the same time there is an incitement to humility, and a hope for the future. For if when we were so abandoned, as to require to be born again, to be saved by grace, to have no good in us, if then He saved us, much more will He save us in the world to come. Titus 3:3-5 (with commentary by Chrysostom)

“For by gracehave you been saved through faith and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God it is not of works that no man should glory” Ephesians 2:8-9.

Mgrfin, I could go on, by I’ll stop here. From your post, it is fairly evident that you do not believe that salvation is by God’s grace alone, through faith alone (sola fide) in Christ alone. I’d like to leave you with one final Scripture, 1Timothy 1:15, with accompanying commentary by St. John Chrysostom. Thanks.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe in Him to life everlasting."

The favors of God so far exceed human hope and expectation, that often they are not believed. For God has bestowed upon us such things as the mind of man never looked for, never thought of. It is for this reason that the Apostles spend much discourse in securing a belief of the gifts that are granted us of God. For as men, upon receiving some great good, ask themselves if it is not a dream, as not believing it; so it is with respect to the gifts of God. What then was it that was thought incredible? That those who were enemies, and sinners, neither justified by the law, nor by works, should immediately through faith alone (sola fide) be advanced to the highest favor. Upon this head accordingly Paul has discoursed at length in his Epistle to the Romans, and here again at length. “This is a faithful saying,” he says, “and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”

As the Jews were chiefly attracted by this, he persuades them not to give heed to the law, since they could not attain salvation by it without faith. Against this he contends; for it seemed to them incredible, that a man who had mis-spent all his former life in vain and wicked actions, should afterwards be saved by his faith alone (sola fide). On this account he says, "It is a saying to be believed

 

[estesbob]

Mgrfin,
As for your query as to the scriptural passages regarding ‘salvation by faith only’ :

“God so loved the world that He gave His Only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved” Acts 16:31.

“I am the Resurrection and the Life, he that believes in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” John 11:25

“And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes in Him, may have everlasting life.” John 6:40

"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness.
Romans 3:24

“Therefore being justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:1

“That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.” Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith: and shun not the righteousness of God, for it is a blessing in two ways; because it is easy, and also open to all men" Romans 3:26 (with attached commentary by Chrysostom).

"

All of whch very nicely prove that faith is necessary for salvation but them no one one is disuting that-the problem with your versews is none of them says “alone”

Then there are the troublesome verses like this:

By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10),

“If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20),

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling."

 

[Singinbeauty]

All of whch very nicely prove that faith is necessary for salvation but them no one one is disuting that-the problem with your versews is none of them says “alone”

Then there are the troublesome verses like this:

By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10),

“If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20),

“For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., *dedikaiomai

]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling."
There is more to Faith than just believing. Faith encompasses belief and action in my book. A TRUE Faith has all of the good works entwined in it. Which would be why Faith without works is dead. You are known by your fruits. You have a TRUE FAITH and the works you produce will show it.

 

[mgrfin]

Mgrfin,
As for your query as to the scriptural passages regarding ‘salvation by faith only’ :

I appreciate your work, but the ‘challenge’ was salvation by faith ONLY. Throughout the Gospels and the Epistles, there is also mentioned of good works.

The Church has taught that a man could not be justified by his own works, or by Sola Fide:

Trent: Canon I: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”

Canon 9: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema”.

Canon 12: “If any one says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.”

Canon 14: If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or the no one is truly justified excep him who belie3ves himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justified are effected, let him be anathema.

Your church falls on down believing in Sola Fide, and Sola Scriptura.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

There is more to Faith than just believing. Faith encompasses belief and action in my book. A TRUE Faith has all of the good works entwined in it. Which would be why Faith without works is dead. You are known by your fruits. You have a TRUE FAITH and the works you produce will show it.

Please, you snuck that in about your faith including works after Luther.

Luther’s doctrine was so absurd, that we are saved by faith only, not connected with any good works whatsoever. Works were to be thrown out according to Luther.

Please don’t soften it with saying your faith includes good works.

Sola Fide is unacceptable to us.

Lutheranism has moved closer to our position and they know it, that is why they were so anxious to have that Joint Declaration, which basically failed to move to the churches together.

The Vatican is not going to change, and drop the anathemas of the Council of Trent on Justification. If you want, you can accept our doctrine and join our Church.

peace

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am sincerely seeking the truth.

Hey Protestant101 please refer to post 172 on this thread, the information you requested I posted there for you.
peace.

 

[Protestant101]

I appreciate your work, but the ‘challenge’ was salvation by faith ONLY. Throughout the Gospels and the Epistles, there is also mentioned of good works.

The Church has taught that a man could not be justified by his own works, or by Sola Fide:

Trent: Canon I: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”

Canon 9: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema”.

Canon 12: “If any one says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.”

Canon 14: If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or the no one is truly justified excep him who belie3ves himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justified are effected, let him be anathema.

Your church falls on down believing in Sola Fide, and Sola Scriptura.

peace

All those “anathemas” are from a Church; not from a Bible. I find discussions like this to be very interesting because of the way that “scholars” like Augustine have perverted the true means of salvation, and how so many “Protestants” seem to follow suit with the thinking of how we are saved by “faith AND works.”

The Bible is clear how that we are saved by neither faith or works. “Faith” is not our Savior. Neither are “Works.” Jesus is our Savior, we are saved by Him alone. (Jo.1:29). This is where a true Protestant and a true Catholic would clash to be sure. Faith is the “hand” or method by which we reach out to Jesus; while “works” are the result that follows. But we can only be saved by a Person! Only by Jesus!

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

For those who know Augustine’s writings well; how would he respond to what I just posted?

 

[dessert]

All those “anathemas” are from a Church; not from a Bible. I find discussions like this to be very interesting because of the way that “scholars” like Augustine have perverted the true means of salvation, and how so many “Protestants” seem to follow suit with the thinking of how we are saved by “faith AND works.”

The Bible is clear how that we are saved by neither faith or works. “Faith” is not our Savior. Neither are “Works.” Jesus is our Savior, we are saved by Him alone. (Jo.1:29). This is where a true Protestant and a true Catholic would clash to be sure. Faith is the “hand” or method by which we reach out to Jesus; while “works” are the result that follows. But we can only be saved by a Person! Only by Jesus!

For those who know Augustine’s writings well; how would he respond to what I just posted?

Faith is a gift and works is how we use that gift the fruits of which brings rewards for the Glory of the Lord.

Faith and works are not opposites they are working on the same plane. They are complimentary but used sometimes individually.

Dessert

 

[mgrfin]

All those “anathemas” are from a Church; not from a Bible. I find discussions like this to be very interesting because of the way that “scholars” like Augustine have perverted the true means of salvation, and how so many “Protestants” seem to follow suit with the thinking of how we are saved by “faith AND works.”

The Bible is clear how that we are saved by neither faith or works. “Faith” is not our Savior. Neither are “Works.” Jesus is our Savior, we are saved by Him alone. (Jo.1:29). This is where a true Protestant and a true Catholic would clash to be sure. Faith is the “hand” or method by which we reach out to Jesus; while “works” are the result that follows. But we can only be saved by a Person! Only by Jesus!

For those who know Augustine’s writings well; how would he respond to what I just posted?

The Bible is subservient to the Catholic Church. The Bible is only part of the deposit of faith given to Christ’s true Church, the Catholic Church.

Now you are saying that Protestants are espousing Faith and Works. I’m sure Luther would be interested to hear you say that.

“We are saved by Jesus alone” you say, -no action on our side, no faith, no works, no faith and good works. What kind of fuzzy thinking is going on here. This is what happens when you are free to interprete your religion and your church as you please.

What, Jesus swoops down from heaven and saves whoever, even those who have not lifted their face to him?

Don’t blame anything on the Doctor of Grace. You are not even in the same ballpark of the illustrious Doctor. St. Augustine is the Church’s Doctor of Grace, and a truly penitent, and loving man of God.

peace

 

[Romans828]

I appreciate your work, but the ‘challenge’ was salvation by faith ONLY. Throughout the Gospels and the Epistles, there is also mentioned of good works.

The Church has taught that a man could not be justified by his own works, or by Sola Fide:

Trent: Canon I: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”

Canon 9: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema”.

Canon 12: “If any one says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.”

Canon 14: If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or the no one is truly justified excep him who belie3ves himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justified are effected, let him be anathema.

Your church falls on down believing in Sola Fide, and Sola Scriptura.

peace

Mgrfin,

How then would you respond to the commentary of St. John Chrysostom on 1Timothy 1:15 : “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe in Him to life everlasting.”

The favors of God so far exceed human hope and expectation, that often they are not believed. For God has bestowed upon us such things as the mind of man never looked for, never thought of. It is for this reason that the Apostles spend much discourse in securing a belief of the gifts that are granted us of God. For as men, upon receiving some great good, ask themselves if it is not a dream, as not believing it; so it is with respect to the gifts of God. What then was it that was thought incredible? That those who were enemies, and sinners, neither justified by the law, nor by works, should immediately through faith alone (sola fide) be advanced to the highest favor. Upon this head accordingly Paul has discoursed at length in his Epistle to the Romans, and here again at length. “This is a faithful saying,” he says, “and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”

As the Jews were chiefly attracted by this, he persuades them not to give heed to the law, since they could not attain salvation by it without faith. Against this he contends; for it seemed to them incredible, that a man who had mis-spent all his former life in vain and wicked actions, should afterwards be saved by his faith alone (sola fide). On this account he says, “It is a saying to be believed”

How do you reconcile the Council of Trent, in essence, anathematizing the teaching of this Church Doctor?
The anathema that I would be more concerned with, however, is the one found in Paul’s epistle to the Galatians. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any Gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema” Gal. 1:8-9.

Any deviation from the Gospel, or good news, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved” (Acts 16:31), and you are under the anathema of the Word of God.