The Protestant hijacking of St. Augustine

[estesbob]

Did I not clearly and fully quote the words of St. Augustine?
Kindly, respond to the passages that I have set forth.

The passage you set forth is an affirmation of the Real presence given by St. Augustine. You have chosen to interpret it differently. In order to settle the dispute one merely need go and find other comments by Augustine on the real presence. Since one can see throughout his writings that he repeatedly affirms the real presence we know that your interpretation of this passage is wrong.

When one takes a Sola Scripture approach to anyone’s writings they can pretty much come up with any conclusion they want as to what the writer said. That is why context and examining the entirety of a subject’s writings is necessary,

 

[estesbob]

Did I not state what Augustine REALLY said? Bob, read St. Augustine’s commentary on the Bread of Life Disocurse and give me your understanding of his interpretation of the passages, newadvent.org/fathers/1701025.htm

No what you gave us what your personal interpretation of what the commentary said. Your personal interpretation not only does not flow from the commentary it also contradicts what Augustine has said repeatedly elsewhere. Prima Facie evidence that your personal interpretation is incorrect

 

[mgrfin]

Did I not state what Augustine REALLY said? Bob, read St. Augustine’s commentary on the Bread of Life Disocurse and give me your understanding of his interpretation of the passages, newadvent.org/fathers/1701025.htm

So, we have to play by your rude rules? Do you imagine someone contradicts himself in one sermon to the next? Augustine was too smart for that.

My eyes are bad, and I have trouble focusing on a full page of print without a break. Apparently there is some metaphor there, but Augustine is not saying he doesn’t believe in the real presences, that Christ is there only figuratively? Also, what he wrote has to be put into context. So I need the full text. Where can I get it?

We don’t want you to run off to some Protestant site saying 'they couldn’t answer me". We can answer you. Just give us the full text.

peace
mgrfin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is actually one of my favorite quotes from Augustine too. I have always wondered where it came from. Can you give me a specific reference, and page number?

(LOL. I thought someone just said that a protestant would “never” say this quote? Now what do we do?)

Just came across your Quote, saying and believing are two different things, you’ve said it, but do you believe as St. Augustine, if you do, what you should do is Convert to Catholicism, thats what a true Catholic Saint does or did. God lives in hearts and minds of men, not in their whims of words.

peace.

 

[Protestant101]

Just came across your Quote, saying and believing are two different things, you’ve said it, but do you believe as St. Augustine, if you do, what you should do is Convert to Catholicism, thats what a true Catholic Saint does or did. God lives in hearts and minds of men, not in their whims of words.

peace.

Thankyou; I am already converted to Jesus Christ - He is all sufficient.

While Augustine; like all good Christians does teach some truths; he unfortunately teaches rebellion against God’s Word in certain things too.

The reason I said that was one of my favorite quotes by Augustine; is because it proves my point quite well. Yes; I believe what Augustine says, but I do not see everything he says as truth. I only believe that he said it. I cannot accept all that he says as truth.

Can you tell me where that quote came from that I was referring to? Then I can explain better what I mean.

 

[Protestant101]

Salvation is by faith. But salvation involves works. If you have no works then you have no faith. No one does works in a vacuum. He who performs works does so because he has faith.

Faith and works are the same thing.

Works are the vital signs of faith. The diagnosis is easy. Walk up the patient. (You must be omniscient.) Check for works. If there are none then there is no faith.

Why does everyone keep trying to separate the two?

Does Augustine say this? Does he say that “salvation is by faith?” Does he say that “faith and works are the same thing?” If he does; can you supply specific references that I can personally verify? This would make for an interesting discussion.

 

[mgrfin]

Read the canons on justification at Trent and you will see why I think your church teaches a salvation of works.

It’s not prejudiced, it’s just my honest opinion.

I think you quote the Canons of Trent on Justification incorrectly, and it is not a matter of opinion:
Canon 1: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law; without the divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”

What say you now about the Church teaching a salvation of works???

peace,
mgrfin

 

[mgrfin]

Salvation is by faith. But salvation involves works. If you have no works then you have no faith. No one does works in a vacuum. He who performs works does so because he has faith.

Faith and works are the same thing.

Works are the vital signs of faith. The diagnosis is easy. Walk up the patient. (You must be omniscient.) Check for works. If there are none then there is no faith.

Why does everyone keep trying to separate the two?

Faith and works are NOT the same thing. Where does it say that in your bible?

James 2, 14 “What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he has faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?”
James 2,17 “So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself”.
James 2,24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only.

peace,
mgrfin

 

[mgrfin]

Just came across your Quote, saying and believing are two different things, you’ve said it, but do you believe as St. Augustine, if you do, what you should do is Convert to Catholicism, thats what a true Catholic Saint does or did. God lives in hearts and minds of men, not in their whims of words.

peace.

You are right. For someone to say that is his favorite quote, he should be off and running for the Tiber.

peace.
mgrfin

 

[mgrfin]

Thankyou; I am already converted to Jesus Christ - He is all sufficient.

While Augustine; like all good Christians does teach some truths; he unfortunately teaches rebellion against God’s Word in certain things too.

The reason I said that was one of my favorite quotes by Augustine; is because it proves my point quite well. Yes; I believe what Augustine says, but I do not see everything he says as truth. I only believe that he said it. I cannot accept all that he says as truth.

Can you tell me where that quote came from that I was referring to? Then I can explain better what I mean.

Maybe you don’t understand everything he says. What he says and everything he says is to be found in the Catholic Church.

So, if you have a problem with anything, you can easily research it with us (the Church).

peace

 

[estesbob]

Thankyou; I am already converted to Jesus Christ - He is all sufficient.

While Augustine; like all good Christians does teach some truths; he unfortunately teaches rebellion against God’s Word in certain things too.

The reason I said that was one of my favorite quotes by Augustine; is because it proves my point quite well. Yes; I believe what Augustine says, but I do not see everything he says as truth. I only believe that he said it. I cannot accept all that he says as truth.

Can you tell me where that quote came from that I was referring to? Then I can explain better what I mean.

It proves your point only if we accept your personal interpretation of what Augustine said and we ignore the remaiing voluminous body of his work. When one uses the Sola Sciptura approach to Augustine’s writings they can pretty much justify anything. You give us your personal interpretation and ignores anything else he says yhat contradicts your **personal **interpretation.A nice tactic for parlor games but totally useless in determining his beliefs about anything.

 

[mgrfin]

Thankyou; I am already converted to Jesus Christ - He is all sufficient.

While Augustine; like all good Christians does teach some truths; he unfortunately teaches rebellion against God’s Word in certain things too.

The reason I said that was one of my favorite quotes by Augustine; is because it proves my point quite well. Yes; I believe what Augustine says, but I do not see everything he says as truth. I only believe that he said it. I cannot accept all that he says as truth.

Can you tell me where that quote came from that I was referring to? Then I can explain better what I mean.

As usual 101, you get backed into a corner, and you hem and haw.

You are not a serious person, and no one should believe anything you have to say.

peace

 

[Delraek]

Does Augustine say this? Does he say that “salvation is by faith?” Does he say that “faith and works are the same thing?” If he does; can you supply specific references that I can personally verify? This would make for an interesting discussion.

So, just out of curiosity, how do most protestants interpret this passage from James 2:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? **17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. **18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thankyou; I am already converted to Jesus Christ - He is all sufficient.

The reason I said that was one of my favorite quotes by Augustine; is because it proves my point quite well. Yes; I believe what Augustine says, but I do not see everything he says as truth. I only believe that he said it. I cannot accept all that he says as truth.

Can you tell me where that quote came from that I was referring to? Then I can explain better what I mean.

Peace Protestant 101, Iam only happy to give three sources where you can find your favorite quote from St. Augustine. I would challenge you to read his book the City of God with your protestant perspective, you will learn alot more about ancient scripture interpretation and you will see things in scripture you never new was there, I warn you though, keep an Encyclopedia and a good dictionary nearby (this guy is deep) bible that has all the books because he Quotes from them just like Jesus did, Your KJVersion will not have all the Quotations because its missing 7 books as you already know martin luther took them out…

“But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.” Quote by St. Augustine

ref. Catechism of the Catholic Church (Libreria Editrice Vaticana) page 34 paragraph 119
St. Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei,5,6L42,176.
City of God (St. Augustine) Vernon J. Bourke his brief description of the Catholic Church page 287.

If you read St. Augustine you will either be enlightened of the beauty of the Cathollic church teachings or you will bruise your foot on the Rock.
I will pray for you brother and ask St. Augustine to pray for your enlightenment and bring you closer to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Praise be his name both now and forever. You cant experience a personal relationship with God unless you consume his body and blood. it doesnt get any more persnoal than consuming the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World.

 

[Romans828]

So, we have to play by your rude rules? Do you imagine someone contradicts himself in one sermon to the next? Augustine was too smart for that.

My eyes are bad, and I have trouble focusing on a full page of print without a break. Apparently there is some metaphor there, but Augustine is not saying he doesn’t believe in the real presences, that Christ is there only figuratively? Also, what he wrote has to be put into context. So I need the full text. Where can I get it?

We don’t want you to run off to some Protestant site saying 'they couldn’t answer me". We can answer you. Just give us the full text.

peace
mgrfin

Mgrfin,
Did I not provide you with where you can get the full text? The newadvent link is in my previous response. St. Augustine’s commentary of John 6, specifically the Bread of Life discourse (Tractates 25, 26 & 27). The text cannot get any primary than that.

Thanks

 

[Romans828]

Rather than rely on your **personal **intepretation of what Augustine said lets see what he really said:

Augustine

“Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, **‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” **(*Explanations of the Psalms *33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (*Sermons *227 [A.D. 411]).

…

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you.** But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. **This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction” (ibid., 272).

Let’s see, Bob. I provide a direct quote from St. Augustine,
“if it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” John 6:53 This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure”,
where he clearly tells us this this passage is to be taken figuratively. And after I merely concur with St. Augustine, you tell me it is my personal interpretation?

 

[mgrfin]

So, just out of curiosity, how do most protestants interpret this passage from James 2:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? **17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. **18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

good post.

Typically Martin Luther or John Calvin - they would say (at first) that James was apocryphal.

peace

 

[estesbob]

Mgrfin,
Did I not provide you with where you can get the full text? The newadvent link is in my previous response. St. Augustine’s commentary of John 6, specifically the Bread of Life discourse (Tractates 25, 26 & 27). The text cannot get any primary than that.

Thanks

What does that mean?

The funny part is even the text you hold to proves Augustine beleived in the real presence. That is unless one buys into your novel** personal** interpreation of what he wrote. Of course your personal interpreation contradicts everytihng else he has wrtitten of the subject but what the heck-thats what personal interpretation is all about-never having to justify anythng you say .

 

[estesbob]

Let’s see, Bob. I provide a direct quote from St. Augustine,
“if it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” John 6:53 This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure”,
where he clearly tells us this this passage is to be taken figuratively. And after I merely concur with St. Augustine, you tell me it is my personal interpretation?

I have read the passage several times and can not for the life of me see how it disputes the real presence. And since we have a mulitude of other wrtitings that contradict your personal interpretation it is obvious you are wrong,

 

[Romans828]

Well, Delraek, some may say that we are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone. Or put another way, good works are the fruit of our salvation, not the root of our salvation.

“For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

St. Augustine clearly distinguishes faith from works, in his commentary on John 6 (found at newadvent.org):

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perishes, but that which endures unto eternal life. To what purpose do you make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already. Faith is indeed distinguished from works, even as the apostle says, “that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law:” Romans 3:28" ,

Thanks