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Protestant101
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May I ask please for a quote or two from official Catholic sources/doctrine that state: “The Bible is subservient to the Catholic Church?” Also; has Augustine written something about that in his writings?
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Romans828
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]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, *work out your own salvation *with fear and trembling."
Amen, we are to work out our own salvation, NOT work for our own salvation. Do you consider any of the verses that you posted from 1John or 1Cor to be “salvation” passages? Why not address the clearly more primary passages that relate to issue of salvation, ie, one of the many that I had previously put forth. Thanks.
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Protestant101
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Fair enough, can you please quote briefly to show what Augustine actually did teach about Grace? What did he teach about faith and works and how we are saved?
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Delraek
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I have not yet received a satisfying response to my prior post, #171, on how protestants interpret James 2… 
How can we be saved by “faith alone” when James clearly states that “faith alone” is dead? Any possibility that the reason many protestants refuse to acknowledge and, therefore, agree with James is because that “agreement” would bring them too close to Catholicism?? (and when you’ve been taught most of your life how “wrong” those Catholics are, how could you possibly agree with them on anything?
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I think Paul has a really good handle on it with this verse from Galatians:
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
How can we be saved by “faith alone” when James clearly states that “faith alone” is dead? Any possibility that the reason many protestants refuse to acknowledge and, therefore, agree with James is because that “agreement” would bring them too close to Catholicism?? (and when you’ve been taught most of your life how “wrong” those Catholics are, how could you possibly agree with them on anything?
)I think Paul has a really good handle on it with this verse from Galatians:
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
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Protestant101
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OK; I will bite. But to be sure; can you please quote the specific verse/s that you are referring to? I want to be sure we are starting on the same wavelength.I have not yet received a satisfying response to my prior post, #171, on how protestants interpret James 2…
How can we be saved by “faith alone” when James clearly states that “faith alone” is dead? Any possibility that the reason many protestants refuse to acknowledge and, therefore, agree with James is because that “agreement” would bring them too close to Catholicism?? (and when you’ve been taught most of your life how “wrong” those Catholics are, how could you possibly agree with them on anything?
I think Paul has a really good handle on it with this verse from Galatians:
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
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Delraek
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I just want to know how most protestants interpret this passage from James 2:OK; I will bite. But to be sure; can you please quote the specific verse/s that you are referring to? I want to be sure we are starting on the same wavelength.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Thanks for responding!
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onenow1
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St. Augustine (354-430): “For myself, I would not believe the Gospel unless the authority of the Catholic Church moved me thereto” (Contra Ep. Fund. 5
PeaceOneNow1
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estesbob
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Based on your personal interretation I guess one could say that. But then we all would have to agree to accept your version Sola Scriptura -insisting we must ignore those passages that refute what you say and demand we concentrate only on those passages that you believe prove you point
.But lets return to the basic problem at hand- you interpret them one and we another. How do we resolve that?
Fortunately Jesus didnt leave it to each suceeding gerenation to figure things out for themsleves. He founded a Church that has been both the guardian and the dispenser of the truth for 2,000 years. Whille you struggle with Scripture is a vain lonely search for your** personal** version of truth we read scripture to gain a better understanding of the truth that has already been given to us. If by chance you do stumble across the truth you will open your eyes and see you are on the other side of the Tiber. Well leave a light on for you.
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SyCarl
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One thing that must be taken into consideration in the interpretation of James 2: 14-26 is that the Scriptures cannot contradict themselves. Therefore Romans 4:2 must be considered.
First, it must be recognized that Protestants generally give justification a different meaning than Catholics. To Protestants justify mean to “declare righteous”, not “make righteous”. You may not agree with this distinction but you did ask for a Protestant interpretation.
So Paul says that Abraham was not declared righteous by works and James says he was declared righteous by works.
But what else does Paul say? He says that Abraham was not justified by works before God. James does not say before God. In fact, the context in James is “How can we tell that someone who says they have faith actually has faith?”.
James says “What use is it, my brethern, **if someone says he has has faith **but has no works?” He also says “But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; **show me your faith **without the works, and **I will show you my faith **by my works.””
What James is talking about is not how someone is declared righteous before God, but how someone is declared righteous before men. Works is the evidence of faith, which is why Protestants say “faith alone but not faith that is alone”. We agree that works are necessary in that they will be the inevitable result of faith. However, those works do not merit anything.
That James is talking about showing our faith to men is made clear by the example he uses with Abraham. He uses Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac as the work that justified him. That is Genesis 22. However, that is after Abraham had already been already been reckoned righteous in Genesis 15:6. So Abraham was justified before God prior to his being justified in the eyes of men when he was willing to sacrifice Issac.
When James says “You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” He is not talking about a real living faith. What he is talking about is a bare agreement with a fact. But saving faith is more than intellectual consent.
At first glance this would appear to contradict James who says:
How can Paul say that Abraham was not justified by works and James then say Abraham was justified by works?
First, it must be recognized that Protestants generally give justification a different meaning than Catholics. To Protestants justify mean to “declare righteous”, not “make righteous”. You may not agree with this distinction but you did ask for a Protestant interpretation.
So Paul says that Abraham was not declared righteous by works and James says he was declared righteous by works.
But what else does Paul say? He says that Abraham was not justified by works before God. James does not say before God. In fact, the context in James is “How can we tell that someone who says they have faith actually has faith?”.
James says “What use is it, my brethern, **if someone says he has has faith **but has no works?” He also says “But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; **show me your faith **without the works, and **I will show you my faith **by my works.””
What James is talking about is not how someone is declared righteous before God, but how someone is declared righteous before men. Works is the evidence of faith, which is why Protestants say “faith alone but not faith that is alone”. We agree that works are necessary in that they will be the inevitable result of faith. However, those works do not merit anything.
That James is talking about showing our faith to men is made clear by the example he uses with Abraham. He uses Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac as the work that justified him. That is Genesis 22. However, that is after Abraham had already been already been reckoned righteous in Genesis 15:6. So Abraham was justified before God prior to his being justified in the eyes of men when he was willing to sacrifice Issac.
When James says “You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” He is not talking about a real living faith. What he is talking about is a bare agreement with a fact. But saving faith is more than intellectual consent.
The demons do not hope in Christ which makes true faith differenent form mere assent to the truth of something.
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Bishopite
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I didn’t know Calvinists believed in purgatory?
If Augustine was a Calvinist then Calvinists would also accept purgatory because Augustine most certainly did…
“But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself [part of the Mass mentions the Saints who have “gone before us”]; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death.” (St. Augustine, Sermons 172:2)"
forums.catholic-questions.org/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=2647599
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Singinbeauty
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Maybe I should have read all 12 pages before answering… I was just pointing out that Faith encompasses more than just a belief. I am not Lutheran… I will leave now… I don’t care for rude people.
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mgrfin
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mgrfin
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Sorry if you believe it is rudeness to point out that modern day Protestants back away from Sola Fide, and define ‘faith’ as something that includes good works.Maybe I should have read all 12 pages before answering… I was just pointing out that Faith encompasses more than just a belief. I am not Lutheran… I will leave now… I don’t care for rude people.
peace
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mgrfin
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I’m sorry, but my graduate degree is in finance. I am not a walking encyclopedia on Catholicism, but I’ll be happy to give you a reference on the topic of Scripture and Tradition.
The First Vatican Council 1870, he dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, covers this particular issue.
I haven’t researched Augustine. Maybe you might Google him; that’s what I would do.
peace,
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mgrfin
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I think we have gotten way off thread. The topic is the 'protestant hijacking of St. Augustine.
Apparently it is not an issue? Why are we discussing St. John Chrysostom, who is an Eastern Church Doctor.
His homily on 1 Timothy 1:15 has even less to do with Augustine. The verses in question have nothing to do even with Protestant ‘hot topics’. Luther never quoted this section of Timothy in his effort to promote Justification by faith only.
I would like to get back on topic.
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Romans828
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ChadS
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In my experiences Protestanst tend to associate Pelagianism with Catholicism because they assume that our good works save us and Pelagius taught that good works (and good works only) can lead to salvation. So based on their faulty understanding of Catholic teaching and a limited knowledge of Pelagianism they make an erroneous connection.
Just look at the following exchange at the following site: reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/07/03/51-protestant-2/#comments.
See especially comments: 3, 21, 25, 28, 40, 81 & 82. Yes I’m that ChadS over there too.
ChadS
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Delraek
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Thank you for your response. I agree that Catholics believe in ongoing sanctification or “make righteous” as you put it - which is a whole 'nother topic!
Quote from Dr. Brad Harper: When Evangelical theology talks of justification, it refers to a one time event, generally understood to be legal, which declares the believer righteous. The idea of ongoing growth in righteousness is discussed under the term “sanctification.” Catholic theology, on the other hand, will often use the terms justification and sanctification interchangeably, indicating both an event and a process.
But if protestants don’t believe in a faith that is just an “intellectual consent”, then it sounds like the difference between your “faith alone” and our “faith, working in love” aren’t really that different!
I apologize to mfrfin for being off-topic - my curiosity got the best of me!
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Romans828
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Delrae, good observation.Thank you for your response. I agree that Catholics believe in ongoing sanctification or “make righteous” as you put it - which is a whole 'nother topic!
Quote from Dr. Brad Harper: When Evangelical theology talks of justification, it refers to a one time event, generally understood to be legal, which declares the believer righteous. The idea of ongoing growth in righteousness is discussed under the term “sanctification.” Catholic theology, on the other hand, will often use the terms justification and sanctification interchangeably, indicating both an event and a process.
But if protestants don’t believe in a faith that is just an “intellectual consent”, then it sounds like the difference between your “faith alone” and our “faith, working in love” aren’t really that different!
I apologize to mfrfin for being off-topic - my curiosity got the best of me!
The all important difference, however, is whether any of these works, which are an outpouring of your faith, are viewed by you as being salvific in nature. Do these works, motivated by love, contribute in the least to your salvation, or are they motivated by a heart of love and gratitude for the salvation that our Lord has provided freely to those who believe (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Romans 6:23, 10:9-10, Gal. 2:21, Eph 2:8-9, etc)?
When it comes to a mixture of faith and works to merit salvation, the Scriptures reveal that they are like oil and vinegar:
“Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him that does not work but beileves on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (Romans 4:4-5).
“And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work” (Romans 11:6)
If one work is added to the equation, then it is not of grace, God’s unmerited favor, and salvation is not a free gift, which Scriptures clearly indicates that it is (see Romans Chapters 3-6).
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).
Thanks
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Singinbeauty
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I was going to leave but something keeps me here… You DO know that not EVERY protestant believes in Sola Fide, right? Catholics believe: Through Grace come Faith and Good Works right? It’s one of the teachings of the catholic church that I do connect with.
You can’t lump every protestant together and tell us we believe in sola fide when we actually don’t. It’s like telling a catholic they worship statues and they keep screaming that they don’t but you just don’t believe them. Open your ears and eyes man…
TRUE Faith in Christ will bring Good Works. It’s what I always have and ALWAYS will believe. Just because you don’t want to acknowledge that I believe this, doesn’t make it a lie… Who are you?!
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