if you are caged by a psychomaniac and starved together with a donkey, and later he tempts both you with food (delicious one, at that) but threatens that if you touch the food he’d kill everysingle person you know and love (a psychomaniac as he is, he directs this threat to the donkey too), will you touch the food? I know the donkey would.
That’s a false analogy - not only does the donkey not comprehend the concept of murder, it cannot even comprehend language. Understanding of these two ideas (murder and language) are not necessary - a being can have reason and will without them.
Okay, let’s take the dog.
Of course not. However, this still does not address the issue at hand.
Do you deny, then, that animals have both intellect and will?
Please supply your definition of will then, so as to assist in further discussion.
Like we said, what we use – at least theologically – as the term “Person” (capital P) is not to be confused with an exclusivity of describing us humans.
It’s important so that we will know how we should explain our beliefs to you. If you were theist, we would have no problems with the existence of God. But since you’re atheist, we need to discuss more in terms of philosophy and reason.I fail to see the connection between my theistic opinions and the current discussion, but I have no qualms in answering that I’m an atheist.
I defer you to New Advent Catholic encylopaedia’s description of Will. (hereafter we’ll use capital W).…
Please supply your definition of will then, so as to assist in further discussion.
Well, you don’t have to contact Our Lord’s phone number. He already left us his teachings: The New Testament. Of course, in the Christian scriptures, in John 1:1 it say that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The phrase “and the Word was God” clearly distinguishes person from nature, just like when we say, by way of a very crude analogy that “Gandhi was human”.** Personhood **clearly distinguishes Gandhi from Nehru, though they are both men.Now, I’m not christian, so please forgive me if I’m not quite sure about how to go about this. How might I ask Christ this question, so as to receive an answer for myself? Where can he be contacted? While we’re at it, I can think of a number of other questions that I’d also like to ask…
Granted. However, there is no shortage of examples of animals that act, as far as we can tell, according to reason and - more importantly - morality. I recall reading about a particular species of monkeys which, when attacked, will (naturally) flee from the predators in question. However, older members of the family will stay behind, sacrificing themselves to the predators and ensuring the safe escape of their fellow monkeys.
Surely it is not the elder monkeys’ wish to die a horrible, painful death to an oncoming predator. Does this action not show at least the tiniest shred of reason, will, and possibly morality to be present in non-humans?
uh uh. No it doesn’t. This was not an act of will. This is the species’ instinctive response for the survival of their kind, present in every creature. The elder monkeys did not choose to die, they were instinctively driven to do so to allow the younger ones to escape. They could not choose otherwise, because it’s their nature.
Surely it must be in God’s best interests to ensure that as many of his creations as possible believe in his existence. Why, then, has he allowed me to continue in my disbelief? I don’t think the standard ‘free will’ response covers it.
- would it not distress you if you learned that there were many potential customers out there who didn’t even know your company existed? Would you not begin advertising campaigns to alert the public to your product’s virtues and benefits over other, similar products?
Then as far as this thread is concerned, the case is closed. There is no use discussing the nature of the Trinitarian God if you likewise doubt His** very existence**, a premise which is essential to the success of this discussion.I fail to see the connection between my theistic opinions and the current discussion, but I have no qualms in answering that I’m an atheist.
I think it is likely that, in the course of this planet’s history, the situation with the elder monkeys sacrificing themselves has repeated itself many, many millions of times.
As I recall, one of the main reasons for sending ships to the “New World” was to convert whomever the Europeans found into Christianity. The native americans didn’t doubt his existence, they hadn’t even heard of him.
Well, Cosmo. First you must open yourself to the possibility of his existence. Just look at nature around you, and the order of the universe, and just try to consider the possibility of a Designer who put this all in place. Then look at yourself. You have two built-in color cameras, two microphones, a loudspeaker, electrochemical machinery, a support structure, ball bearings, a cooling system, and a complex electronic processor and data communications subsystem. Maybe you can just consider the chance that your body was designed by someone.Surely it must be in God’s best interests to ensure that as many of his creations as possible believe in his existence. Why, then, has he allowed me to continue in my disbelief? I don’t think the standard ‘free will’ response covers it.
If you were the president of a company providing a desirable good - toilet paper, for example
In short - I appreciate any material you may submit to me to ponder, however, when can I expect any such material from God? You state that “God will have to do the rest”, so when can I expect him to get around to it?
Perhaps. Possible yes. But in such a case, it would be considered deviant for that species or there may have been a higher-priority instinct that prevented them. In any case, everything in the animal world is instinct-driven, not will-driven. Higher instincts take precedence. Animals are simply driven to do the things they do. We humans are different. Our actions can quite often go aginst our priority instincts.
I am, and always have been, open to that possibility - not here, nor elsewhere, have I ever stated otherwise. I do not think, however, that the religious community is equally as open to the possibility that he does not exist.
Wow, aren’t I special?
Seriously, though, there is no shortage of organs within my body that have no discernible purpose. My appendix, for example. Would an intelligent creator, for any reason, give me body parts that serve no purpose?
I thank you for your sentiments, however I also wonder about being prayed for. It is a statement I have often heard in the past, yet what do I gain through it? Are you praying for me to discover God, or convert to Christianity? With the current track record that prayer seems to have, it seems like you’d be better off typing on the boards to me than praying to me.
I agree with you, there’s no doubt that the species is largely instinctual. However, even one affirmative case proves that there is at least some capacity for reason and will in animals, which is all that I needed to show.