The Quadrinity

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Cosmo,
If you’re not finished, could you please start a new thread on this? This thread is supposed to be about the quadrinity, not the hmaniity of Jesus Christ.
 
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Cosmo:
I am, and always have been, open to that possibility - not here, nor elsewhere, have I ever stated otherwise. I do not think, however, that the religious community is equally as open to the possibility that he does not exist.
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No we aren’t. That’s why we’re religious. At least for me, it’s impossible for me to NOT believe in God even if just for the reasons I cited.
Wow, aren’t I special? 🙂 Seriously, though, there is no shortage of organs within my body that have no discernible purpose. My appendix, for example. Would an intelligent creator, for any reason, give me body parts that serve no purpose?
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Heh heh. I never said God had no sense of humor :D. He put that there so that surgeons can send their kids to college 😃

Yes, you are special, have no doubt of that. 🙂 Now for appendix, honestly, I don’t know. But that little detail is not enough to disprove to me God’s intelligence or power.
I thank you for your sentiments, however I also wonder about being prayed for. It is a statement I have often heard in the past, yet what do I gain through it? Are you praying for me to discover God, or convert to Christianity? With the current track record that prayer seems to have, it seems like you’d be better off typing on the boards to me than praying to me. 🙂
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Openness is the first step. These things are not rushed. I sense a bit of that already because from the tone of your messages, you appear to be searching. I encourage you to go on. And yes, I and I’m sure many others will include you in our prayers. I hope for the day you come to accept Jesus Christ and enter the Catholic Church which he founded, but one step at a time. Just try to get to know God first in the ordinary ways he reveals himself: in creation, in our personhood, in the drama of the universe. Eventually, he will lead you to Christ. Just allow him to guide you.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Needless to say, I totally agree with you. That is, except the last sentence. Only the core essentials of the Faith should be dogmatized, and these things about Mary are not core essentials, if even true. I’m not saying that they’re not true, just that they may not be. You as Catholics should have no problem with me saying that since they haven’t been declared ex cathedra.
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Hey Jux,

Hope this goes back on track.

Yeah, maybe I should have clarified my last sentence. I meant to say, that if they’re defined as dogma, then they should defend or proclaim, as you said, a core essential, like the other four dogmas do.

Honestly, I’m not convinced our Lady demands these things about her. She does tell us something: “Do as he tells you.” All Marian dogmas should therefore be Christological/Theological dogmas, not Marian for their own sake.
 
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porthos11:
All Marian dogmas should therefore be Christological/Theological dogmas, not Marian for their own sake.
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I hope Pope John Paul II and all future popes will feel the same way.
 
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porthos11:
No we aren’t. That’s why we’re religious. At least for me, it’s impossible for me to NOT believe in God even if just for the reasons I cited.
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Why not? What is it that prevents you from even acknowledging that the slimmest possibility even exists that he does not exist?
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porthos11:
Now for appendix, honestly, I don’t know. But that little detail is not enough to disprove to me God’s intelligence or power.
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An interesting statement. The appendix is not alone; there is no shortage of human body parts that either serve no purpose or seem rightfully out of place. I am not trying to disprove to you God’s intelligence or power - but, what do you think it would take for you to acquiesce to the possibility that he may not exist?
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porthos11:
I hope for the day you come to accept Jesus Christ and enter the Catholic Church which he founded, but one step at a time. Just try to get to know God first in the ordinary ways he reveals himself: in creation, in our personhood, in the drama of the universe.
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One step at a time, indeed. Here’s some questions for you to ponder. If you answer them, perhaps then we can talk about accepting Jesus.
  1. We have no scientific evidence that God exists. In the 12,000 years since man settled down and ended its hunter-gatherer lifestyle, do you not think that someone would have found God if he did indeed exist?
  2. What about the thousands upon thousands of other Gods that are also said to exist? What of Zeus and Hera? What of Dionysus, Quetzalcoatl, and Vishnu? What of Allah? What of Ra, Osiris, and Mercury? What reason do you have for being a near-complete atheist, in that you believe in one God but deny the existence of thousands of others that have been named to exist? What is it that makes you cling to only one? Is there really such a big difference between me, the atheist, and you, the christian?
  3. What of evil? If you had the power to prevent 3,000 deaths and the collapse of two skyscrapers on a given day in September, wouldn’t you? If God is able to prevent evil but is unwilling, is he not malevolent?
One step at a time. 🙂
 
I haven’t read all this thread, but the thing that entered my mind quickly was something from a book I read recently. It was not a very exciting book, but I felt it was necessary.

Alexander Hislops’ *The Two Babylons

*In that work (I looked briefly for the page and quote, and source he cited just now, but couldn’t locate it) he says something about how the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary and Joseph are in the Trinity! Don’t worry, I don’t believe that, nor do I believe that Catholics actually believe that. In fact, if you believed that, you would cease to be Catholic.

Now, you should believe that Mary is uniquely related to the Trinity in a very special way that perhaps no other mere human enjoys. But that’s outlined quite well in teachin on the Immaculate Conception.

Rob
 
I have spun off another thread called “Existence of God” on this forum. Jux has requested that this line of discussion be continued there.
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Cosmo:
Why not? What is it that prevents you from even acknowledging that the slimmest possibility even exists that he does not exist?

An interesting statement. The appendix is not alone; there is no shortage of human body parts that either serve no purpose or seem rightfully out of place. I am not trying to disprove to you God’s intelligence or power - but, what do you think it would take for you to acquiesce to the possibility that he may not exist?

One step at a time, indeed. Here’s some questions for you to ponder. If you answer them, perhaps then we can talk about accepting Jesus.
  1. We have no scientific evidence that God exists. In the 12,000 years since man settled down and ended its hunter-gatherer lifestyle, do you not think that someone would have found God if he did indeed exist?
  2. What about the thousands upon thousands of other Gods that are also said to exist? What of Zeus and Hera? What of Dionysus, Quetzalcoatl, and Vishnu? What of Allah? What of Ra, Osiris, and Mercury? What reason do you have for being a near-complete atheist, in that you believe in one God but deny the existence of thousands of others that have been named to exist? What is it that makes you cling to only one? Is there really such a big difference between me, the atheist, and you, the christian?
  3. What of evil? If you had the power to prevent 3,000 deaths and the collapse of two skyscrapers on a given day in September, wouldn’t you? If God is able to prevent evil but is unwilling, is he not malevolent?
One step at a time. 🙂
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jimmy:
I have never heard anyone say that either. People hear something they don’t understand and they completely misunderstand the meaning.
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Very true. The distortion of Catholicism by some is really sad!

Antonio 🙂
 
The poster answered his own question. This is a frivolous question and a misuse of the forums.
 
:Originally Posted by Contarini
No Catholic w/ith an ounce of doctrinal understanding will ever try to do anything of the sort, and any non-Catholic who thinks that such an attempt is likely is both ignorant and bigoted.
Be careful, Contarini.:

You gave me no reason to be careful. You linked to yet another post where someone (“hermit”) made the same silly charge that co-redemptrix means “fourth member of the Trinity,” and another poster (“misericordie”) rightly rejected this identification.

Co-redemptrix does not mean fourth member of the Trinity. Mediatrix does not mean fourth member of the Trinity. Not at least in the views of those who push for these titles. (I’m not one of them–I think that these titles cause way too much confusion and come too close to divinizing Mary. But that’s infinitely removed from actually attempting to divinize Mary.)

In Christ,

Edwin
 
One of the Justices of the Supreme court defined a woodpecker as a person but he did not define a baby in the womb as a person.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Cosmo,
If you’re not finished, could you please start a new thread on this? This thread is supposed to be about the quadrinity, not the hmaniity of Jesus Christ.
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This is precisely why I ceased responding. The original question it seems was hijacked, from being a discussion about the alleged inclusion of Mary as a member of the Trinity into a discussion on the humanity of Christ and the existence of God, which are not the main topics of this particular thread. If our friends prefer to discuss the existence of God or the nature of the Incarnation, it is better to start another thread.

Gerry 🙂
 
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Cosmo:
Why not engage in a mature discussion? The benefits to yourself are obvious - intellectual intercourse with one who does not think as you do, a re-examining of your own beliefs, and so forth. 🙂
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The discussion may have been interesting. However, as a gesture of respect for the poster who started this thread, I believe we should stay true to the original intent of the thread.

Gerry 🙂
 
I do wonder, though. There are sects for everything, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one advocating Mary as a fourth member of the Trinity. This, of course, wouldn’t be true.
 
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jcrawf:
I pretty much agree with you. One thing though, is that the Holy Spirit is the advocate. So, sometimes I’m not sure what to think when Mary is considered the advocate. Maybe in respect that Mary, being the mother in relation to the church as in some special relation with the Holy Spirit, which is also said to pour out of the Church. This is just a thought. I’d really like some (name removed by moderator)ut on this view. As a former Protestant who used to question Marian doctrine, I have come close to Mary and find that she does play a great supporting role in the Church as the mother to all Christians.

Pax Tecum,

John
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No one ever suggested that Mary is THE advocate. She is AN advocate (just as you and I should be), though being the Mother of God she is an especially effective advocate. This whole “fourth person of the trinity” thing is just an anti-Catholic scare tactic dreamed up by fundamentalists. I believe Jimmy Swaggart started it back in the 80’s.
Paul
 
God is God, and is never changing, therefore the idea of Mary, a mere creature(human) becoming, or being defined as having been the fourth person of the Trinity is ludicrous.

This would be the equivelant of changing the Dogma of the Godhead as being only 2 persons.

It cannot happen, for this would mean that Church teaching in it’s official dogmatic capacity would change to mean something different, and that cannot occur. Dogma can develop, but it cannot change.

peace, papist
 
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Cosmo:
I fail to see the connection between my theistic opinions and the current discussion, but I have no qualms in answering that I’m an atheist. 🙂
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**Hello Cosmo…:tiphat: …**there are several atheist at this web-site…their stories are exceptionally inspirational…:yup: .they are on tape… you may like to listen to them some time.
God Bless You,
Shalom,
Catherie
 
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Cosmo:
Out of respect for those in this forum, I’ve moved my latest questions into a new thread: Questions about God

Thanks, everyone! See you in the other thread. 🙂
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**Hello Cosmo…:tiphat: …**there are several atheist at this web-site…their stories are exceptionally inspirational…:yup: .they are on tape… you may like to listen to them some time.
God Bless You,
Shalom,
Catherie
 
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