The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[ahimsaman72]

Chris W:

The issue of “salvation by faith alone” versus “salvation by faith and works” is one of the biggest issues that divide Christians, and it is based in part, on a communication problem. Catholics say that we need both faith and good works to achieve salvation. What appears to be a flat out contradiction is actually somewhat of a misunderstanding.

Most Christians agree on two things; (1) that faith is absolutely necessary for salvation, and (2) that we are absolutely commanded to do good works. Both of these points are unmistakably clear in Scripture. The problem is that the terms of the dispute are used in different senses. When Catholics say that we are “saved” by good works as well as faith, we mean by “salvation” the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny. This process includes repentance, faith, hope, and charity (the works of love). Whereas, Protestants (non-Catholics) typically mean by the word “salvation”, being put right with God.

The word “faith” is also used in two different senses. Protestants use it in a broad sense of a person’s acceptance of God’s call to salvation, as it is used by St. Paul in Romans. But Catholics use it in the sense that Paul used it in 1 Cor 13, as one of the three theological virtues; with hope and charity being separate. In this sense, faith alone is not sufficient for salvation, because we also need hope and charity.

Catholics are describing faith as existing separate from actions. The Catholic Church describes faith as “an act of the intellect, prompted by the will, by which we believe what has been revealed on the grounds of the authority of God, who revealed it.”

With a clear definition of terms, both Protestants and Catholics say basically the same thing. Protestants say “faith (which must include hope and charity) is sufficient for salvation”, whereas Catholics say, “faith (without hope and charity) is not sufficient for salvation”.

However many Christians have very different beliefs on two related Issues: (1) The reason for the good works. Is there any merit for them, or are they just a natural by-product of faith? (2) How should we look at the “assurance of salvation?”

Absolutely wonderful post. Great insight! :clapping: Never seen it put like this. Really clears up some muddy water.

 

[Richard_Lamb]

You are arguing a gainst a false premise, I never said that it was either faith or works i said that there is no such thing as faith without works.

The faith works paul speak of is the the works fo the mosaic law, not the works of mercy and faith of a beliver.

It is not either faith or works it is faith that works

 

[Fidelis]

ahimsaman72:

Picking and choosing Scriptures is done by both sides of the Tiber, like using Matt.16:18 to define Peter’s authority and refusing to see the many other verses which show otherwise.

Such as…?

 

[Chris_W]

ahimsaman72:

Absolutely wonderful post. Great insight! :clapping: Never seen it put like this. Really clears up some muddy water.

Thanks but I can’t take credit. As with most of what I know, I did not think of it. I wish I could remember who I heard it from…

 

[Pax]

There is certainly something to be said for the differences in the way Catholics and non-Catholics describe saving faith. In some cases there is a near congruence, but there are some Protestants that do not have much more of a definition of saving faith then simple “mental assent.” In general, Catholic teaching depends on more definitions and additional terms which to me seems more consistent with scripture and more easily makes sense out of both Paul and James. In any event, to say that “we are saved by faith alone” is scripturally problematic.

I would like some responses to something I have floated on a couple of other threads but have had no challenges/responses. Anyway, try tackling the following:

Love and faith are necessary works.

The belief that we are saved by faith alone and that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved is contrary to both scripture and common sense.

We are told in 1Cor 8:3 that “…anyone that loves God is known by him.” If you are not known by God then you are not saved. This is given even greater emphasis in 1 Cor 16:22 where Paul tells us, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord.” In James 1:12 we are told that “…the crown of life is promised to those who love him [the Lord].” This same statement is repeated in James 2:5.

And the apostle, John, defines for us what love of God is when he says in 1Jn 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.” And Jesus, Himself, says in John 15:10 that “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” Obviously, if we do not abide in God’s love we are not saved.

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."

Paul also makes this point in 1 Thessalonians 1-4

"PAUL, SILVANUS, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father **your work of faith and labor of love ** and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you; "

 

[mayra_hart]

st james condems the idea that we are saved by faith apart from good work:“see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone… for as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith aprt from works is dead”(jam2:24,26)luther’s battle cry,"justification by faith alone ",is expressly contradicted by scripture, which explains why he belittled the book of james(a part of god"s infallible word) as “an epistle of straw”. santa maria madre de dios ruega por nosotros. amen

 

[Steve_M]

Chris W:

However many Christians have very different beliefs on two related Issues: (1) The reason for the good works. Is there any merit for them, or are they just a natural by-product of faith? (2) How should we look at the “assurance of salvation?”

As a former Southern Bapitist, I can attest that this paragraph is the crux of the problem. It boils down to once saved always saved. Those that say works are not necessary, will usually say that if you don’t have works you were never saved to begin with. Those that bore fruit then fell away, were never saved to begin with, in that line of thinking. It doesn’t take into account the fact that faith develops over time.

 

[Steve_M]

Richard Lamb:

It is not either faith or works it is faith that works

By grace through doing the work of faith.

 

[Richard_Lamb]

but works is still int the equation, it’s the removal of works from the equation to causes problems.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

rarndt01:

If one is saved by faith ALONE, then what need is there of repentance and baptism. Let alone confessing one’s future sins to God in the future? One could make a momentary confession of belief in Christ in one’s youth and afterwards continue to live as the rest of the world. But the bible certainly does not teach such non sense. Faith embraces belief in Christ, but belief in Christ is not all that faith embraces. Faith embraces ALL that Christ desires for us TO DO.

Hebrews chapter 11 is often called the faith chapter. All the saints are mentioned as having a faith that pleased God. But what kind of faith did they have? A faith of just believing? Or a faith that obeyed what God expected ? Notice each of the persons and what it says prior to what they did. It says. BY FAITH so and so did this. Their faith brought forth a response on their part.

Now this leads us to the hopeless sinner. Can a sinner be saved by believing in Jesus? Certainly. But is that all our dear Lord requires of the sinner to do to be born again? No, it’s not. Jesus said all men MUST be born again. They must be water baptized as well. Also Paul says in Acts 17:31 that God expects ALL men to repent. So we see here in just these three scriptures that faith embraces MORE than just believing to receive God’s salvation and forgiveness. Much more.

Faith alone advocates just pick n choose the scriptures that speak of believing and totally ignore the OTHER scriptures which speak of repentance, baptism and obedience to the church thereafter. This is called misapplying the whole of the scripture and making a “shipwreck” of the faith.

If you talk about demons’ faith, it is true that you need to add works, but this is not the case of the living Christian faith.

Repentance doesn’t save you unless you believe.

Repent and believe in the Gospel.

All what you need is just to believe. N.B.: I don’t mean to believe as demons believe.

If you believe, that faith lives! So you live righteous life by faith!

We are saved by a LIVING faith, and works have nothing to do in our salvation. Works are fruits of Salvation.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

Fidelis:

You’re right, in James 2:19 he does talk about what kind of faith the demons have. But the kind of faith the demons have is faith alone, since they do not have faith working through love (James 2:17; Galatians 5:6). The preceding verses (and thus the entire context of the passage) make this crystal clear.

Fine. So faith working through love! Not faith PLUS works.

For those works are not our works, but God’s works in us and through us.
Those works are not our works DESERVING salvation, but are the works of God as FRUITS of salvation.

Jesus said:
“when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’” ( Luke 17:10 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[bengal_fan]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Fine. So faith working through love! Not faith PLUS works.

For those works are not our works, but God’s works in us and through us.
Those works are not our works DESERVING salvation, but are the works of God as FRUITS of salvation.

Jesus said:
“when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’” ( Luke 17:10 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

i’m sorry, but you don’t have a biblical leg to stand on. we must read the bible as a whole. the few verses which support your idea are flatly contradicted by james, john and even paul in some places. but if we put them together, we see that it is not faith alone. paul himself talked about “working out my salvation with fear and trembling”. if paul had to fear falling away, how much more should we. hebrews 6 speaks of losing one’s salvation. james says flat out “we are justified by works and not by faith alone”. why can’t you read the bible as a whole instead of finding things that support what you want to believe (or have been told to believe) and ignoring the passages which would force you to change how you think?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

bengal_fan:

why do people quote this verse as supporting sola fide? it clearly says we are saved by grace . that grace is imparted to us through our faith and that faith is realized through our works. verse 10 (which is so often neglected) supports that our faith is made perfect through our obedience to doing the works God has prepared for us to do. if we don’t do the works, we don’t have faith and therefore do not get the grace which saves us .

Exactly! Those works are what? are PREPARED by God for us. And God will work them in us if we really believe in Christian Faith.

And, as you say, it is all GRACE! So:

“if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” ( Romans 11:6 )

If someone presents you a gift, you don’t tell him: “how much do I have to pay”, but you just accept that gift and you thank him.

The problem with many is that they are concentrating on vain debate with protestants and on refuting “faith alone”, and they are not concentrating on the meaning of the Christian faith. And the result is that many are talking about wrong kind of faith.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

tkdnick:

Matthew 25:

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
All of these things are WORKS! How can we be saved by faith alone when Jesus Himself tells us right here that if we DON’T DO works, even if we know Him, we will STILL go to hell?!?

Yes. So if we will be judged according to our works, none of us will be saved.

But what did Jesus tell the righteous?
You know what.
But let me just call your attention to something the righteous answered:

“Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’” ( Matthew 25:37-39 )

Now Jesus explained when they saw Him. Right?

Well, now let’s suppose you are one of those righteous ( I pray you are in Christ ), so tell me please: why will you not know the answer although Jesus told us in this parable? How will you not know that by helping the poor you are helping Jesus?

My friends, the parables are practical examples needing to be understood in the light of clear doctrinal passages.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

JimG:

rarndt01: I agree with you entirely. I was only making the point that in reading the Gospels, especially in the account of the last judgment, works come across as very important!

“LORD, You will establish peace for us,
Since You have also performed for us all our works.” ( Isaiah 26:12 )

AMEN!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Pax]

Yaqubos,

You seem like an enthusiastic and industrious fellow. Would you please address my previous post and do so point by point. And keep in mind that loving God, obeying God, and believing (having faith) in God are all things that "we do."

While faith, hope, and charity are supernatural gifts of God, they are still works that we do. Naturally, everything is by grace, but grace does not turn us into robots. We still have free will and can choose to do God’s will or our own. The Catholic understanding properly explains and encompasses the teachings of scripture when it comes to faith and works in salvation.

If you disagree with this, then please logically refute my earlier post point by point.

I’m thanking you in advance for your interest and enthusiasm.

One other thing…if you do believe that works are part of saving faith, are you willing to step away from the expression “we are saved by faith alone.”? This expression, by the way, is not found anywhere in the bible, and is directly contradicted by the apostle, James.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

Malachi4U:

Your right, 'f’aith alone is death.

Yes, demons’s faith alone is death.

Malachi4U:

Just a note, you forgot the CONTEXT of the verse. By not reading verse 10 you lost the meaning. Most protestants ignore verse 10 too so don’t feel bad. It proves the your use ov the verse out of context.

What makes me feel bad is that you are concentrating on vanities, instead of concentrating on the Christian faith.
For instance: who told you that I am protestant? You people think that only protestants believe in Jesus Christ…

**(NIV) “Ephesians 2 **8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, ***created in Christ Jesus to do good ***works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

It is clear by verse 10 that we are created unto good works or deeds.

I have explained this in my previous replies.
But I just want to thank you because you didn’t forget to say that we are what? CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works and not BY good works.
We are saved (created in Christ ) to do good deeds! Totally right!

Malachi4U:

If you read various versions of Scripture like the AKJV or KJV or NKJV or AMP, etc… you will see that we are not save by works! We are not saved by manditory works/deeds (deeds is protestant for works) of the law either. Scripture is clear that without works/deeds our Faith is dead.

Yes, demons’ faith is dead without works.

Malachi4U:

A fig tree is known by its fruit and our Faith is known by its deeds!

Thank you again for the clarification: the tree is KNOWN by its fruits, but it is not good just because we put good fruits on it!

Malachi4U:

Remeber the virgens without oil/works?

oil/works? Who said that oil is works?

Malachi4U:

Remember that we must endure to the end?

Yes, we must endure to the end IN FAITH.

Malachi4U:

Remember not all who call my name will be saved?

Your name?

Malachi4U:

I enjoy your posts. Keep them comming. They remind me of when I was listening to my old Baptist preacher who only quoted verses to support what his opinions were. He ignored the other verses.

Again… some people don’t want to see… My friend, I am not baptist.
And you know very well that I am not ignoring any passage of the Holy Word of God.

My friend, there is something that many people are note noticing. The Old Testament was more than full of mentions about works and how people must do good deeds to be saved! You can’t find the word “faith” very often in the OT. But the New Testament says clearly that even the people of the OT were not saved by works! Yet, children of Satan believed that they can be saved by their works and that God wanted that because He said this in the Bible!
And when Jesus came, many people wanted to look on Him as a new Law-giver like Moses, because He talked about living faith.

Just read the whole Bible, and you will see.

And let me repeat again: I am NOT protestant! So go see who made you think that only protestants believe in the Bible.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Pax:

There is certainly something to be said for the differences in the way Catholics and non-Catholics describe saving faith. In some cases there is a near congruence, but there are some Protestants that do not have much more of a definition of saving faith then simple “mental assent.” In general, Catholic teaching depends on more definitions and additional terms which to me seems more consistent with scripture and more easily makes sense out of both Paul and James. In any event, to say that “we are saved by faith alone” is scripturally problematic.

I would like some responses to something I have floated on a couple of other threads but have had no challenges/responses. Anyway, try tackling the following:

Love and faith are necessary works.

The belief that we are saved by faith alone and that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved is contrary to both scripture and common sense.

We are told in 1Cor 8:3 that “…anyone that loves God is known by him.” If you are not known by God then you are not saved. This is given even greater emphasis in 1 Cor 16:22 where Paul tells us, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord.” In James 1:12 we are told that “…the crown of life is promised to those who love him [the Lord].” This same statement is repeated in James 2:5.

And the apostle, John, defines for us what love of God is when he says in 1Jn 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.” And Jesus, Himself, says in John 15:10 that “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” Obviously, if we do not abide in God’s love we are not saved.

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."

Paul also makes this point in 1 Thessalonians 1-4

"PAUL, SILVANUS, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. We give thanks to God always for you all, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father **your work of faith and labor of love ** and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brethren beloved by God, that he has chosen you; "

First of all: faith is not a work.

Second: love is a fruit of the Spirit. So you need to be saved and to receive the Holy Spirit in order to have that fruit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love” ( Galatians 5:22 )

So you want to talk about fruits before having the good tree…

And by the way:

“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” ( Luke 7:47 )

You have to understand the language of Jesus to understand what He is saying here.
Then He says:

“Your faith has saved you” ( Luke 7:50 ).

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If you wish to have others respond to you seriously and respectfully, perhaps you will refrain from such cutesey-poo little “gibes” as you did here:

oil/works? Who said that oil is works?

and here:

Your name?

I’m sure a Bible literate person like you is QUITE familiar with the story of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins. Matthew 25: 1-13. Not to mention the “sheep and the goats” of Matthew 25: 34-46.

And how Jesus said to His disciples “Not everyone who says to Me ‘Lord, Lord’ will be saved, but He who does the will of My Father in Heaven.” Matthew 7:21

 

[Steve_M]

Yes, demons’s faith alone is death.

You have to add extra words to the scripture get your theology to work.

My friend, there is something that many people are note noticing. The Old Testament was more than full of mentions about works and how people must do good deeds to be saved! You can’t find the word “faith” very often in the OT. But the New Testament says clearly that even the people of the OT were not saved by works! Yet, children of Satan believed that they can be saved by their works and that God wanted that because He said this in the Bible!
And when Jesus came, many people wanted to look on Him as a new Law-giver like Moses, because He talked about living faith.

Works in the Old Testament refer to the Law. No where do I know of where the Old Testament says, after the law was given, that you have to do good deeds. It says you have to follow the Law. In Pauls writings works, Law, and works of the Law all usually refer to the law. When Paul refers to good deeds, he says good works or good deeds, As in Romans 2:5-7

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

When posed with the question of how to obtain eternal life, this is what Jesus says.

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

or

John 3:36. The NASB translation. The most accurate word for word non-Catholic translation.
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

or

In Mark 16 15-16

15 And He said to them, "(20) Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 "(21) He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

There’s more than just believing. You must act upon that belief. Belief and faith are only the first step. If you don’t produce fruit, you are like the seeds that fell on the rocky ground. The roots didn’t take, and they died away.

Just read the whole Bible, and you will see.

I did, and that’s when I decided to become Catholic.