The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[puzzleannie]

Richard Lamb:

Because there is no such thing. We are told to believe in a non-existent premise

What evidence do we have that such an entity as Richard Lamb exists? So why should we credit anything communicated in this name?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!
Tantum ergo:

If you wish to have others respond to you seriously and respectfully, perhaps you will refrain from such cutesey-poo little “gibes” as you did here:

Many wrong things are being said. So we need to clarify.

The question “your name?” intends to tell our friend that, when we quote from the Bible, we need to say it clearly. Maybe there are people who visit this forum but have no idea about the context.
Tantum ergo:

I’m sure a Bible literate person like you is familiar with the story of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins. Matthew 25: 1-13. Not to mention the “sheep and the goats” of Matthew 25: 34-46.

And how Jesus said to His disciples “Not everyone who says to Me ‘Lord, Lord’ will be saved, but He who does the will of My Father in Heaven.” Matthew 7:21

“no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:3 )

So, indeed, those who call Him Lord without the Spirit, He will tell them that He never knew them, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” ( Romans 8:9 )

I hope this is clear.

Let’s thank the Lord for EVERYTHING!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!
Steve M:

You have to add extra words to the scripture get your theology to work.

“You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” ( James 2:19 )

I am not the author of this verse.

And I think you are not reading the previous replies… I don’t think you believe that only the poor people are saved, do you? Yet, James says clearly:

“did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?
Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?” ( James 2:5-7 )

Well, don’t you need to add some extra words to this to hold the fact that rich people can also be saved?
Steve M:

Works in the Old Testament refer to the Law. No where do I know of where the Old Testament says, after the law was given, that you have to do good deeds. It says you have to follow the Law. In Pauls writings works, Law, and works of the Law all usually refer to the law. When Paul refers to good deeds, he says good works or good deeds, As in Romans 2:5-7

What is the Law, my friend. The Law is Commandments telling you to do good deeds. One of the Commandments that I’d like to mention is this:

“you shall love your neighbor as yourself” ( Leviticus 19:18 )

If this is not what you mean by good deeds, then what do you mean?

By the way: I’d like to ask you to read the whole Leviticus 19, and you will see what Law means, and what being saved by works will be meaning…
Steve M:

When posed with the question of how to obtain eternal life, this is what Jesus says.

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

And why don’t you continue reading:

"The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”
Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.” ( Matthew 19:20-23 )

That young man says he kept the Commandments! Why is he not saved? Because he was deceiving himself by thinking that he can keep the Commandments and deserve salvation! But in fact, he didn’t even keep the first Commandments that says that he must not have other gods than God. This young man had money as god! And he says what am I still lacking! How self-righteous!
In fact, Jesus wanted to show him this when He asked him why he is calling Him good.
Steve M:

If you don’t produce fruit, you are like the seeds that fell on the rocky ground. The roots didn’t take, and they died away.

Those fruits are not my fruits, but the fruits of the Spirit! GRACE UPON GRACE!
Notice that the fruits are the fruits of the seed, not of the ground.
God’s Word will create you in Christ Jesus, and you will bear fruits.

“For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.” ( John 1:16 )

GRACE UPON GRACE! Not just the first grace, and then our works!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Fidelis]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Fine. So faith working through love! Not faith PLUS works.

For those works are not our works, but God’s works in us and through us.
Those works are not our works DESERVING salvation, but are the works of God as FRUITS of salvation.

Jesus said:
“when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’” ( Luke 17:10 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I think we are close to agreement on this except for the words I highlighted above. I would say they are our works in the sense we can choose to perform the works that the Holy Spirit prompts us to do, or we can refuse. Speaking to the Christians in Rome, St. Paul says

“By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.” (Romans 2:5-8)

Saved or not, God always respects our free will, and but he gives us every grace he can to respond.

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13)

 

[Steve_M]

“You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.”

( James 2:19 )

I am not the author of this verse.
No, but you have to add words to the faith without works is dead verse.

Well, don’t you need to add some extra words to this to hold the fact that rich people can also be saved?

Not at all, but when you only selectively choose the verse, and take them out of context, you have to add words. Actually Jesus clarified the teaching about the rich in Matthew 19

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

What is the Law,.

The law is a leaglly binding contract. If you can follow the law perfectly God owes you salvation. That’s the covenent of the Old Testament. The New Covenent is under grace. It is a gift. If a father promises to give a child a cookie if he cleans his room, there is no contract. The father loves his child, and the child loves his father. Part of that childs love entails obeying the father. If the child does what the father says, he gets the reward the father promisses. That’s the New Covenant. We obey God under grace, and we receive the gift he promises. Without the grace, our faith and our works are worthless. Under grace, our works perfect our faith. James points that out in chapter 2.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

That young man says he kept the Commandments! Why is he not saved? Because he was deceiving himself by thinking that he can keep the Commandments and deserve salvation!

So when Jesus tells him to follow the commandments do you believe he’s lying to him?

If he could have kept all 613 laws perfectly, he was owed salvation. That was the covenent the Jews were under. It was the covenent of the Old Testament. The problem is they couldn’t do it. They tried to keep the letter of the law and not the spirit of it. Jesus sums the Law up in Matthew 22

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And He said to him, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

GRACE UPON GRACE! Not just the first grace, and then our works!

Grace, then faith, then works. Faith and works under grace.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

We are justified by the condign merit of Christ alone. Yet, God does congruously reward those already justified who act faithfully with gratuitous grace (congruous merit), while punishing those who act unfaithfully (demerit).

Congruous merit rewarded for faithful works gives those in a state of grace, more grace, which allows those with “little fath” to become those with “great faith.” This grace upon grace strengthens our will and enlightens our intellect in such a way that helps us to persevere to the end and attain eternal life.

God does not give his gifts unecessarily. All of God’s gifts are given so that we may attain eternal life. Therefore, grace upon grace is not uncessary towards eternal life.

 

[bengal_fan]

YAQUBOS:

Exactly! Those works are what? are PREPARED by God for us. And God will work them in us if we really believe in Christian Faith.

that’s not what the verse says. it doesnt’ say “God will work them in us” it says they have been "prepared for us to do ".

YAQUBOS:

And, as you say, it is all GRACE! So:

“if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” ( Romans 11:6 )

but by that logic it isn’t by faith either. if it is all grace than we don’t have to even believe and everyone is saved, but other passages tell us the fuller story, just as they tell us the fuller story that it is not just faith, but grace/faith/and works all together.

YAQUBOS:

If someone presents you a gift, you don’t tell him: “how much do I have to pay”, but you just accept that gift and you thank him.

and then you take that gift and incorporate it into your life. when my mother gives me a shirt, it would be offensive if i only accepted the gift and put it in my closet. i have to wear it from time to time. just like salvation, it is a gift, but i have to not only accept it and put it in my heart, i must let people see it or it will be eaten by moths (much like the ugly shirt my mom gave me a few years ago ). works strengthen our faith. no works kills our faith. there is no standing still. if we are not moving forward we are moving backward. if we are not living we are dying and our faith will die with it.

YAQUBOS:

The problem with many is that they are concentrating on vain debate with protestants and on refuting “faith alone”, and they are not concentrating on the meaning of the Christian faith. And the result is that many are talking about wrong kind of faith.

it is not vain to share the truth of how we are really justified. it is wrong to be spreading falsehoods and half truths and there is nothing vain in trying to correct sincere (yet slightly misled) believers.

 

[Steve_M]

itsjustdave1988:

Congruous merit of faithful works rewards those in a state of grace with more grace, which allows those with “little fath” to become those with “great faith.” This grace upon grace strengthens our will and enlightens our intellect in such a way that helps us to persevere to the end and attain eternal life.

That’s a good way of putting it that I haven’t heard before.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

SteveM,

I believe the “faith alone” formula is often the Protestant way of saying that the condign merit of Christ is infinite and is all that we need to become and remain children of God. I just think the formula can and does lead to antinomianism, and we ought to perhaps rephtase such terminology, especially because it is directly contrary to what Scripture explicitly states.

Catholic doctrine insists that the infinite merit of Christ does not need any additional merit from us. Yet, congruous merit is a fact of Scripture. God does bless the faithful and does punish the unfaithful. In fact, God sometimes blesses some due the the faithfulness of others. We simply believe these blessings are not irrelevant to soteriology, as some Protestants seem to suggest.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

bengal_fan:

that’s not what the verse says. it doesnt’ say “God will work them in us” it says they have been "prepared for us to do ".

No! It is written:
“prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

And the Scripture says also:

“for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” ( Philippians 2:13 )

And:

“LORD, You will establish peace for us,
Since You have also performed for us all our works.” ( Isaiah 26:12 )

bengal_fan:

and then you take that gift and incorporate it into your life.

Exactly! God’s gift works in you, so you LIVE!

In Love†

 

[Steve_M]

itsjustdave1988:

SteveM,

I believe the “faith alone” formula is often the Protestant way of saying that the condign merit of Christ is infinite and is all that we need to become and remain children of God. I just think the formula can and does lead to antinomianism, and we ought to perhaps rephase such terminology, especially because it is directly contray to what Scripture explicitly states.

Catholic doctrine insists that the infinite merit of Christ does not need any additional merit from us. Yet, congruous merit is a fact of Scripture. God does bless the faithful and does punish the unfaithful. We simply believe these blessing are not irrelevant to soteriology, as some Protestants seem to suggest.

It goes hand and hand with the idea of once saved always saved. I was a Southern Baptist until May 28th of this year. The faith alone and OSAS never seemed quite right to me. When I began studying Catholic theology, the missing pieces were all filled in.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Fidelis:

Such as…?

I forgot I posted to this thread. Anyway, this subject has been hashed to death on other threads, but basically one should look further to Matt. 18:18 to see that all apostles were given authority to bind and loose. One should also take the whole book of Matthew from beginning to end and really get a good picture of His viewpoint (inspired by God) on issues such as this. Time and my energy do not permit for me to elaborate further. You’ll have to forgive me.

 

[Chris_W]

I really believe that the disagreement between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians on the issue of Salvation by faith alone is due to misconceptions. For clarification, Catholics agree that salvation is a free gift from God, merited by the suffering and death of Jesus Christ. Jesus opened the doors of Heaven, allowing us to be saved. There is nothing we can do to “earn” salvation in this sense.

My experience has been that non-Catholics have a real discomfort about Catholicism because there is a misconception that Catholics think we can somehow “buy our way into Heaven” through our works. What I hear from Protestants is, “For us to think we have to do anything, takes away from the glory of what Jesus did for us.” This is a sincere concern, and if the Catholic Church taught what many Protestants think it teaches, then this concern would indeed be valid. However, with a proper understanding of Catholic teaching, this concern vanishes.

St Paul said “I rejoice now in the sufferings I bear for your sake; and what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ I fill up in my flesh for His body, which is the church.” St. Paul is saying that he makes up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ’s physical body for the sake of His Mystical Body, which is the church. He certainly does not mean to infer Jesus’ work was insufficient. Rather, he is describing how we still have our part to do.

We are commanded to do good works and our works are meritorious (there is a reward for them). Catholics teach the benefits of pursuing good works; to show our love, for the resulting grace, for the remission of sins, etc. This does not take away from the fact that our salvation was merited by the suffering and death of Jesus Christ, any more than St Paul was taking away from the glory of what Jesus did.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I don’t believe one can simply chalk this up to a misconception. The Protestants I know really do reject the efficacy of congruous merit. Catholicism really does believe that congruous merit is efficacius toward eternal life. Both are not correct.

 

[Chris_W]

itsjustdave1988:

I don’t believe one can simply chalk this up to a misconception. The Protestants I know really do reject the efficacy of congruous merit. Catholicism really does believe that congruous merit is efficacius toward eternal life. Both are not correct.

I agree. What I mean is that each time I have discussed this with Protestant friends, once they realize I am not saying we can earn our salvation through works, they are put at ease. Then the debate really is over whether or not works are meritorious. This logically then leads to discussion of Purgatory and the assurance of salvation. But my point is that it seems there is a lot of energy put into debate about salvation that I feel is based on misconceptions (on both parts).

 

[Chris_W]

Additonally, I find the discussion much more productive when we know specifically what we are debating. If we are debating meritorious value of works, that is fine, we can tackle that. But if we are discussing what ingredients (faith, hope and chraity) are needed for salvation, we must be clear on what each party believes for the dialogue to progress.

My belief is that Protestants and Catholics agree that Faith, Hope, and Charity are needed. The difference comes when we get down to whether or not works are a natural by-product of real faith (Protestant position), or if works are meritorious in addition to faith (Catholic postition). Of course we will also disagree on the assurance of salvation, but I feel each needs to be separately discussed.

 

[Pax]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

First of all: faith is not a work.

Second: love is a fruit of the Spirit. So you need to be saved and to receive the Holy Spirit in order to have that fruit.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love” ( Galatians 5:22 )

So you want to talk about fruits before having the good tree…

And by the way:

“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” ( Luke 7:47 )

You have to understand the language of Jesus to understand what He is saying here.
Then He says:

“Your faith has saved you” ( Luke 7:50 ).

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Yaqubos,

You apparently read my post but you deny that faith and love are works even though scripture says they are. Try analyzing the verses I quoted again. Scripture makes it clear that they are both works because they are actions that through the grace of God we do. The fact is you cannot refute them. You are welcome to try again, but I believe you should face the obvious.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Chris W,

I agree. It seems in most discussions with Protestants, all the energy is used to disassemble false understandings of each other’s soteriology. That is often so exhausting that we often tragically give up before any discussion of real differences can begin. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

It’s often helpful to start with something reassuring, such as, "supernatural merit is only an effect or fruit of the state of grace (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. VI, cap. xvi)" (*The Catholic Encyclopedia (1909), “Merit”). *It is not the cause of justification, and so it is not that which makes a sinner justified. “It is a defined article of the Catholic Faith that man before, in, and after justification derives his whole capability of meriting and satisfying, as well as his actual merits and satisfactions, solely from the infinite treasure of merits which Christ gained for us on the Cross (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. VI, cap. xvi; Sess. XIV, cap. viii).” (ibid)

This normally disarms many false accusations against Catholic soteriology from the very start of the discussion.

 

[Fidelis]

ahimsaman72:

I forgot I posted to this thread. Anyway, this subject has been hashed to death on other threads, but basically one should look further to Matt. 18:18 to see that all apostles were given authority to bind and loose. One should also take the whole book of Matthew from beginning to end and really get a good picture of His viewpoint (inspired by God) on issues such as this. Time and my energy do not permit for me to elaborate further. You’ll have to forgive me.

Not a problem. But just to address the “binding and loosing” refererence," Matthew 18:18, to which you refer is given in an entirely different context than Mt: 16:18ff., the context of Mt 18 is one of authority in apostolic administration, *not * of primacy. Compare the two passages: In Matt 16, Jesus is addressing Peter directly and, in addition to the binding and loosing, is pointedly given the keys to the kingdom, something that is missing from Mt 18:18. This has also always been seen as a clear reference to Isaiah 38.

If this seems like a biased or novel interpretation, you can take it up with the Early Church Fathers, who also held this to be true. See here for more info:

catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

 

[Steve_M]

Pax:

Yaqubos,

You apparently read my post but you deny that faith and love are works even though scripture says they are. Try analyzing the verses I quoted again. Scripture makes it clear that they are both works because they are actions that through the grace of God we do. The fact is you cannot refute them. You are welcome to try again, but I believe you should face the obvious.

Pax,

Doesn’t this sound a lot like the discussion on the “Perplexed Protestant” thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=12939 started by Socrates4Jesus? Is it just a coincidence that Socrates made his last post on the day Yaqubos made his first?