The reason why young men are leaving the church

[Ernie07]

Amen!! Reading Scott Hahn’s book, “The Lamb’s Supper” helped make the Mass so much more meaningful to me. Prior to that it was hard for me to not have my mind wander during Mass. His book not only pointed out the beauty, truth, and awe-inspiring nature of the Mass, but it also helped me to more fully participate as well.

God bless!

-Ernie-

 

[on_the_hill]

on_the_hill:

When I was an altar boy there was absolutely no sense that we were on a pathway to a church vocation.

That is so sad to me! It is not the only purpose of altar serving, but it is important. Missed opportunity, I guess.

The priests barely spoke to us. They were pleasant, friendly, cordial, but there was no conversation. We’d arrive about 15 minutes before Mass started. The priests would usually arrive a few minutes later. They’d put on their vestments and Mass would start. This was the mid-1970s, the priests ranged in age from a couple who were elderly to others who were probably in their 30s.

 

[PJM]

Thanks

I have NO IDEA what a “strawman” is; BUT I do know what our RCC Teaches and what I shared is Confirmed Doctrine.

GBY

 

[goout]

I’m referring to Daddy Girl.
this is the straw man:

Do you seriously believe that the Christian god would send a good person to a burning hell forever just because they missed church?

It’s a mis-attribution that is easy to refute.

 

[adgloriam]

That is so sad to me! It is not the only purpose of altar serving, but it is important. Missed opportunity, I guess. Cardinal Arinze has a great interview about it a ways ago. He talks about the priest, if they are doing their job well. It’s just a couple minutes long.

I love Cardinal Arinze.

 

[Teek]

I love Cardinal Arinze.

Me too! He is brilliant!

 

[Reuben_J]

To go for worship, not to be entertained or to entertain. Admittedly there may be such mass around and what people here would call liturgical abuse.

It can be due to your disposition too - participating in worship is the main thing in mass.

 

[jfz178]

So you believe the main point of having an altar server is not to actually help the celebrant and give a young person a way to more fully participate in the Mass, but rather a manipulative recruiting ploy? I was a server in the Latin and the vernacular Mass and I was never aware of any “vocational mind control.” I was happy to do it and it did make me feel more a part of the Mass, but it did not tempt me in the least to become a priest. If that is how we are pushing vocations, no wonder we have a priest shortage.

 

[Teek]

So you believe the main point of having an altar server is not to actually help the celebrant and give a young person a way to more fully participate in the Mass, but rather a manipulative recruiting ploy? I was a server in the Latin and the vernacular Mass and I was never aware of any “vocational mind control.” I was happy to do it and it did make me feel more a part of the Mass, but it did not tempt me in the least to become a priest. If that is how we are pushing vocations, no wonder we have a priest shortage.

Only if you think teaching children about the faith is a manipulative recruiting ploy, or that Eucharistic Adoration is vocational mind control.

I meant that they get to witness the most important job of a priest up close while in the True Presence of the Eucharist. They get to see up close the reverence and the awe with which the Church serves the Eucharist, hear the quiet prayers of the priest. They get to see how carefully each particle of the Eucharist is protected, the special drain used to prevent desecrating the Eucharist in regular sewage.

I feel that it is an apprenticeship in what a priest does. It doesn’t control anyone to learn.

But if they do not learn, how would they ever consider it?

Do you think considering being a priest is a TEMPTATION? Maybe you didn’t feel the invitation from God because it is not your vocation. What does that have to do with everybody else?

Please, watch this video if you are interested in understanding what I understand altar serving to be. It is Francis Cardinal Arinze discussing girl altar servers. It is only a couple minutes long. He expresses it with an eloquence I obviously do not possess, if you thought I meant that altar serving is vocational mind control.

 

[jfz178]

Only if you think teaching children about the faith is a manipulative recruiting ploy, or that Eucharistic Adoration is vocational mind control.

If it only applies to boys, yes that is what I think and it is misogynistic to boot. If it applies to all children, then no.

The video backs me up. It is permitted to have girls on the altar and he has no power to change that. And altar serving for boys was indeed used as a manipulative measure to recruit minors into becoming priests. Turn that around. If any other calling in life had instituted such a manipulation, it would be decried as child abuse. We rail against activist grade school teachers trying to manipulate kids into adopting their methodology.

And we also know, for a fact, that some priests used the altar boys as their private harems. It might have been only a few, that we know of, but that proves it was always possible. Having both genders involved helps break that up, IMHO.

 

[Teek]

Whoa. Then we fundamentally disagree.

 

[TINYAD]

TheLittleLady makes a wonderful REMARK,

You are pointing out books on apologetics and catechesis. Both have a place, but, first there has to be evangelization.

Frank Sheed’s “To Know Christ Jesus”,
Trent Horn’s brand new book “Why We’re Catholic”

are starters, we have to be disciples and mentors. Once there is a conversion experience, then the catechesis and apologetics follow.

i VERY MUCH AGREE to this point.
Unless and until one have the CHRISTO-EXPERIENCE no amount of theology shall put any stuff into oneself.
I have not read any of the two books mentioned above. But, i am sure it finally invites the persons to into RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LIVING GOD THROUGH PRAYER.
And that is the key.
God in his mercy and love has presented a salvation plan. One cannot help it. No point in confronting with it. Instead try it out. Yes , experiment it. The humble heart shall plead before that ALMIGHTY. If you the God wants , let me get grounded in the faith. in the Catholic Faith.
I VERY MUCH UNDERSTAND that it is a gift from God. The Faith.
Please be willing to give me that.
The humble seeking heart shall be bestowed with the ENCOUNTER WITH GOD.
This is so simple. People think it is a complicated stuff. The FAITH. tHE lORD IS ALIVE. His Holy Spirit is available for those who sincerely yearn for it.
EXPERIENCING THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT makes one’s life turn around.
The praying person is granted that experience. And that ENCOUNTER ONE CAN NO MORE DENY TO ONESELF. This i believe is the starting point of FAITH FILLED life. He yearns for more. He struggles to explore. He finds meaning the CREED. he joyfully prays OUR LORD’S PRAYER. Crucifix makes sense. He adores it. He spends hours gazing at it.

The the questioning mind look for reasons, which painstakingly one has to enter into the deliberations of the Magesterium , spelt out through the CATECHISM OF THE CAHTOLIC CHURCH. Beware it is a personal pursuit. Sure , the mother church shall support, especailly if one approaches the church with utmost humility. Again payer shal be helpful along the road.
HALLELUIA.

 

[TINYAD]

guanophore, recalls , and reaffirms,

This happened to me too, but it was because I found the catechism so watered down. It took my Baptist bretheren to make me understand what it meant to be a disciple of Christ. I think our young people are not sufficiently challenged. Unless a person can grasp something worth dying for, one will not have anything worth living for either. …

I agree fully with the above observation. We talk about TAILORING the catechism to the young people of today. We dilute, distort, water it, colour it, mould it, to see that the average youth shall be attracted BY WHAT WE PRESENT.
There is nothing for us to present. We must firmly understand that the holy spirit IS THE TEACHER.He makes the person recall and understand the mysteries in a particular way suited to that person. The church presents the case, rather PREACHES CHRIST.

If we water it, or dilute it, the smart youth will not cherish it. They will frown upon it. They can easily grasp the contradictions that will result in the presentations.
The TRUTH IS THAT THE RISEN LORD IS ALIVE IN MY LIFE.
And I cannot deny it. If i deny, i am TELLNG A LIE to my trusted friends. I am cheating.

 

[Arkansan]

If it only applies to boys, yes that is what I think and it is misogynistic to boot.

lol

Explain how anything anyone has said in this thread equates to hatred of women.

 

[jfz178]

“misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women”

The desire to get women involved in traditionally male activities like altar serving has result in young men and boys being uninterested in them

Completely unfounded, blames women for the problem.

I wonder if being female influences your perception such that you don’t see how much of homilies and Christian apologetics, including official statements from bishops, is passive rather than active – about contemplation, acceptance rather than boldness and protest.

A gross generalization and putdown of women.

You’re right about the feminization of the Church.

I consider the word “feminization” used as a cause for some bad outcome as inherently misogynistic.

I went to a church service where women were required to wear headcovering and there were a lot of men and boys in attendance.

Fallacy of false cause, ridiculously blames women for the problem.

“Feminization” as a put down, again.

Letting women take traditionally male roles (such as altar serving) results in young men and boys not being inclined to participate.

False cause, gross generalization, blames women for the problem.

Boys don’t consciously dislike the presence of female altar servers, it’s just that boys are less likely to enjoy it.

What the heck? I this is one of the most outlandish and anti-female things I have ever heard. Completely without foundation, blames females for the problem.

As long as the form of the Mass is geared toward women, it will alienate men.

False cause, blames women.

As the sacrificial aspect had been downplayed over the last 50+ years, men are not as challenged by, or drawn to, the new mass. As the celebratory aspect has been emphasized over the last 50+ years, women are more drawn to, and “included” in the new mass. Also…more talking during the new mass, or “dialogue” if you will…tends to appeal more to women.

Again, gross generalization, completely unfounded, blames women for the problem.

Education is largely carried out by and for women.

Completely untrue, gross generalization, anti-female statement.

 

[ethereality]

I am tempted to laugh at how my quotation was interpreted, but jfz seems to be serious. I am sorry jfz’s thinking has become so poisoned by identity politics. jfz, please reconsider that statements made to one person do not necessarily apply to the entire ‘group’ that can be abstracted from that person. The ‘putdown’ assertion is simply a non sequitur. x ~= y does not mean x > y.

 

[jfz178]

…being female influences your perception such that you don’t see how much of homilies and Christian apologetics, including official statements from bishops, is passive rather than active

My mind is not the one poisoned. You are saying that being female impairs perception, that females in the Church are not capable of your apparently infallible perception. You don’t see that as a put down? Turn it around. If I substituted the following in your sentence, what would you think? Being male? Being black? Being white?

Prejudiced people are often tempted to laugh when their prejudices are challenged.

 

[Mr_Freeze]

That’s just like…your opinion, man.

 

[Arkansan]

So . . . people make observations that you find offensive, therefore they “dislike, despise, or are strongly prejudiced against women”. It’d be nice if instead of dismissing things you find offensive out of hand, you’d actually address the truth claims. In any case though, even if it were admitted that the statements you quoted were incorrect, it doesn’t follow that the people who made them are anti-woman or whatever.

 

[jfz178]

Prejudice is not easily seen by the prejudiced. Otherwise, there would not be so much of it.

If you believe those quotes are true, own it. Don’t weasel-word around it.