I know it is rather common this day and age; but it is not logical to “not agree with” a definition. That is all that Fix offered: a *definition *of subjective and objective truth. That people cannot agree on the basic meaning of words these days is one of the many spoiled fruits of relativism, *not *a sign of enlightenment.Are you open to the truth - the objective truth - that not everyone agrees with you on this point?
Limerick
Women do have the right to CHOOSE … to keep their legs closed.God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE
**If we are not worthy of the love and mercy of God then what is the point of embracing doctrine and living by the ten commandments? It seems I have been right all along and my behaviors over the last fifty years, good and bad, have had absolutely no impact on how I will spend my afterlife. You have successfully put my father’s face on God: no matter what I do or how well I do it, no matter what successes I may enjoy or human heights I may achieve, it will never be good enough, I will never be worthy of his love, his care, his support … God is, again, small and critical and threatening.I still don’t get your point. My position is that a person can experience fear as they make a decision, be fearful of the future, and still do the right thing. In a situation like this, a person can feel unworthy of the love and mercy of God (and really, we’re not worthy!) and this in itself wouldn’t be sinful.
Certainly I agree that fear can mitigate culpability, but I don’t know if that’s what you’re talking about.
**I’m sure fix appreciates your answering my question for him/her. Thank you, Mommy.I know it is rather common this day and age; but it is not logical to “not agree with” a definition. That is all that Fix offered: a *definition *of subjective and objective truth. That people cannot agree on the basic meaning of words these days is one of the many spoiled fruits of relativism, *not *a sign of enlightenment.
**Yes, yes, and men have the right to keep their pants zipped. But will they? Just love how you dump it all on women. Class.Women do have the right to CHOOSE … to keep their legs closed.
One possible outcome of sex is pregnancy, one CHOOSES to have sex knowing that this is the case.
CHOOSE wisely.
michel
**I don’t know - is it? Why are you asking me? I don’t endorse abortion. I endorse each individual’s exercise of God-given free will and, with that, fully experiencing the natural and logical consequences of all behaviors put into motion as a result of the exercise of free will.Oh O.K, so I don’t understand how someone can justify killing a human. That better?
**I’m sure fix appreciates your answering my question for him/her. Thank you, Mommy.
Limerick**
I mention women because this abortion discussion is all about HER right to choose, not the father of the child’s right to choose.**Yes, yes, and men have the right to keep their pants zipped. But will they? Just love how you dump it all on women. Class.
Limerick**
You have the most amazing and at the same time pathetic ability to twist Christian doctrine beyond all recognizably. I’m sorry your father was an *** and didn’t love you the way you **deserved **to be loved. I truly am! If there is one thing that comes across loud and clear in your posts it is the pain and humiliation that you have suffered at the hands of those in positions of authority.**If we are not worthy of the love and mercy of God then what is the point of embracing doctrine and living by the ten commandments? It seems I have been right all along and my behaviors over the last fifty years, good and bad, have had absolutely no impact on how I will spend my afterlife. You have successfully put my father’s face on God: no matter what I do or how well I do it, no matter what successes I may enjoy or human heights I may achieve, it will never be good enough, I will never be worthy of his love, his care, his support … God is, again, small and critical and threatening.
Nice work, nodito. Now that’s a God I can fear!
Limerick**
Because of the Love and Mercy of God. We don’t have to be worthy of it to receive it. I think you’re equating worthiness with accessibility. We have FULL access to God, despite our unworthiness. Being unworthy is simply a way of saying the sin of our forefathers closed us off from God, but His abundant Love and Mercy for us re-opened the door to Him. It also is saying that our human efforts to please Him and gain acceptance to His Kingdom are not sufficient inasmuch as we attempt to accomplish them without Him (His Grace, and our faith). God loves everything about you, even with sinful tendencies.**If we are not worthy of the love and mercy of God then what is the point of embracing doctrine and living by the ten commandments? **
Oh no, I’m not in confusion at all over the difference between Tuth and belief - you claim that what the Catholic church teaches is all truth and absolute - but what I am saying (and I think you understood this but don’t want to admit it) is that this is what you BELIEVE to be the truth although you say it is absolute for everyone. The prochoicer that hears your “truth” knows that you believe this is truth but does not accept it as “truth” Just as you believe what they claim to be truth is only a belief. Not all of the world is Catholic and believes something because the Pope in Rome has said so. All of those truely think that what you believe to be the only truth is just your belief just as you believe what they consider truth to just be an opinion or belief. Here I am not saying I agree or diagree with what you said I’m just saying that what you say is your truth is not what everyone else says is truth.Beating a dead horse, perhaps…but…
The “truth” being discussed here falls under the heading of Eternal Truth…that which defines creation, morality, salvation, and eternity. This is the only type of truth that needs to be addressed on this issue.
Truth is only subjective if it does not lie within that category (i.e. the “i feel cold” example given by Fix)
Rye, I think you are confusing “belief” with “truth”. I maintain there is but one objective, Eternal (moral-based) Truth. It is not MINE. It is not YOURS. It doesn’t belong to anyone. It just IS. What is “mine” is my “belief”. What is “yours” or “someone else’s”, is their belief.
I hold that my “belief” on abortion is aligned properly with the Truth. Is someone else’s belief aligned with Truth? That’s for them to decide. But it has to be understood that one of us is WRONG. We can’t both be right, for that would make Eternal Truth subjective, which it cannot be. Someone is in error.
Some may believe that Eternal Truth lies in what the government says regarding a moral issue, but that is not Eternal Truth, that is man-made “truth” which is subjective and capable of grave error. It is not in error ONLY IF it aligns with Eternal Truth. So, where do we actually find Eternal Truth? If you’re truly a Catholic, look to the Church. If you’re not, well…keep searching, I guess.
The reason I haven’t brought this up is because of the --it storm I expected it to bring. I have been to a priest some time ago after this occured and he agreed with what I did, that we really had no other choice. I also know there are Priests out there that would disagree as vehemently as some on here do.The Church would rather that both lived. The real reason behind the truths that the Church offers is that we we should not be the ones who choose whether or not we live or die, whether or not a loved one lives or dies, that we should place that burden at the feet of Jesus and pray that it turns out all right. And you’re right, Jesus did help them to understand things, but He did it in a way that led them closer to Him, in a way that they did not always understand, but that they accepted with faith. As Catholics we are supposed to accept that God knows what’s best for us and that He knows what we can withstand more than we, ourselves, do. You should not turn away from the Church, the One and Only church where the presence of Jesus is real just because of what some people say on a forum. Talk with your priest about what’s happened and ask him in person, I know talking to my priest always makes me feel better about hard decisions. NOTE I am not telling you to go to confession, but to talk with your priest and to get to know him and to let him get to know you. Priests and religious aren’t the enemies, neither are your fellow parishioners despite how we’ve acted through the guise of anonymity online. To Jesus through Mary, May she guide your steps closer to her Son and to understanding.
Sure, many do not accept what is true. So? Is that proof they are correct?Are you open to the truth - the objective truth - that not everyone agrees with you on this point?
Limerick
That is not the Catholic Church’s position. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the Catholic Church’s position.“if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives…”
The Catholic Church’s position is that, in today’s society, the death penalty is not necessary, therefore not defensible.
2+2=4 that is true regardless of how many, or few, accept it.Oh no, I’m not in confusion at all over the difference between Tuth and belief - you claim that what the Catholic church teaches is all truth and absolute - but what I am saying (and I think you understood this but don’t want to admit it) is that this is what you BELIEVE to be the truth although you say it is absolute for everyone. The prochoicer that hears your “truth” knows that you believe this is truth but does not accept it as “truth” Just as you believe what they claim to be truth is only a belief. Not all of the world is Catholic and believes something because the Pope in Rome has said so. All of those truely think that what you believe to be the only truth is just your belief just as you believe what they consider truth to just be an opinion or belief. Here I am not saying I agree or diagree with what you said I’m just saying that what you say is your truth is not what everyone else says is truth.
**What does it matter if they are correct or incorrect? If an abortion occurs as a result of their differing opinion, different belief, different truth, or whatever, isn’t the cost still the same? Many Catholic women and Catholic couples seek abortions every year - their beliefs are, presumably, the same as yours, but they proceed in spite of it. Non-Catholics the world over subscribe to alternative “truths” seek abortions and at the last moment choose not to proceed - does this make their “truth” more effective than yours?Sure, many do not accept what is true. So? Is that proof they are correct?
I haven’t read all your posts, so this may have been said previously. There are those truths which are absolute, ie. if someone kills you, you are dead. If you steal something from another, you are a thief, etc. The Ten commandments are absolute truths given by God to humankind to keep us from destroying one another. Those folks who have a different truth than these have only opinions, which are subjective.Oh no, I’m not in confusion at all over the difference between Tuth and belief - you claim that what the Catholic church teaches is all truth and absolute - but what I am saying (and I think you understood this but don’t want to admit it) is that this is what you BELIEVE to be the truth although you say it is absolute for everyone. The prochoicer that hears your “truth” knows that you believe this is truth but does not accept it as “truth” Just as you believe what they claim to be truth is only a belief. Not all of the world is Catholic and believes something because the Pope in Rome has said so. All of those truely think that what you believe to be the only truth is just your belief just as you believe what they consider truth to just be an opinion or belief. Here I am not saying I agree or diagree with what you said I’m just saying that what you say is your truth is not what everyone else says is truth.
Those Catholics who seek abortions DO NOT have the same beliefs as what the Church teaches, or they would not turn their backs on its teachings to do as they please, or feel they must do. Non-Catholics have the same laws of God directing them as Catholics do. You ask if a non Catholic choosing not to have an abortion has a more effective truth than the Catholics who do choose to have one/them. I think you are getting truth and choice confused. Both have the truth available, but both may choose to do as they will because of Free Will.**What does it matter if they are correct or incorrect? If an abortion occurs as a result of their differing opinion, different belief, different truth, or whatever, isn’t the cost still the same? Many Catholic women and Catholic couples seek abortions every year - their beliefs are, presumably, the same as yours, but they proceed in spite of it. Non-Catholics the world over subscribe to alternative “truths” seek abortions and at the last moment choose not to proceed - does this make their “truth” more effective than yours?
Limerick**