The Right to Choose

  • Thread starter Thread starter ryecroft
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back to Truth:

EVANGELIUM VITAE
To the Bishops
Priests and Deacons
Men and Women religious
lay Faithful
and all People of Good Will
on the Value and Inviolability
of Human Life

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

note: “all people of Good Will”. This Truth is for everyone. Read it. It isn’t locked away and buried for a chosen few to know it. It is revealed freely and openly. It is revealed to us so that we may conform ourselves to He who is Truth.
 
limerick said:
mapleoak says:
“For instance, a woman who chooses to cut off her arm would be fit for the insane asylum.”

**Not if she were freeing herself from a life-threatening trap.

Limerick**
Click to expand...
So you would then agree that a woman has no right to kill her unborn child just for the heck of it, just as she has no right to cut off her arm just for the heck of it?
 
limerick said:
**What does it matter if they are correct or incorrect? If an abortion occurs as a result of their differing opinion, different belief, different truth, or whatever, isn’t the cost still the same? Many Catholic women and Catholic couples seek abortions every year - their beliefs are, presumably, the same as yours, but they proceed in spite of it. Non-Catholics the world over subscribe to alternative “truths” seek abortions and at the last moment choose not to proceed - does this make their “truth” more effective than yours?

Limerick**
Click to expand...
Someone who believes something which is at odds with Truth is…Wrong.
 
limerick said:
What does it matter if they are correct or incorrect?

It matters because we live in a society. If large numbers of people fail to grasp the most fundamental moral concepts then our society is in trouble.**
If an abortion occurs as a result of their differing opinion, different belief, different truth, or whatever, isn’t the cost still the same? Many Catholic women and Catholic couples seek abortions every year - their beliefs are, presumably, the same as yours, but they proceed in spite of it. Non-Catholics the world over subscribe to alternative “truths” seek abortions and at the last moment choose not to proceed - does this make their “truth” more effective than yours?
Click to expand...
Are you maintaining truth does not matter?
Click to expand...
 
ryecroft said:
Oh no, I’m not in confusion at all over the difference between Tuth and belief - you claim that what the Catholic church teaches is all truth and absolute - but what I am saying (and I think you understood this but don’t want to admit it) is that this is what you BELIEVE to be the truth although you say it is absolute for everyone.
Click to expand...
I’m certainly willing to admit it…in fact, I did. If you read the post of mine that you just replied to, I said…“I hold that my belief on abortion is aligned properly with the Truth”.

Look, I think you get the point (somehow), but you keep erroneously interchanging the word TRUTH with the word BELIEF. This only serves to confuse matters, and actually, it undermines and conceals what is at the heart of the issue. I’m not saying you HAVE to believe what I believe to be TRUE. That’s certainly your choice. I will defend what I believe to be true, and you will defend what YOU believe to be true. But the bottom line, again, is that we CANNOT BOTH BE RIGHT. Either one of us is wrong, or both of us are wrong. Truth is singular, and does not conform to belief. Beliefs are many, Truth is one. What’s important is that we are SURE that we have done everything we can possibly do to determine the ONE TRUTH. If you are a Catholic, your responsibility is to find that ONE TRUTH in the Church. If you’re NOT Catholic, that Truth is still in The Catholic Church, it’ll just be harder for you to find it until you submit to the fact that The Church is authentic.

Again, all this is my BELIEF.
 
Ryecroft - I am sorry that you found a priest who told you something that was not true. Priests are human, sometimes they make mistakes.

One question, is God God or is He not? That is the bottom line.

God is truth, so, somewhere there must be absolute truth. What you have to decide, is God true or is He make believe.

I pray you find God to be truth.
 
stormcloud said:
Yes. It is. (It’s been in the Catechism since '92.)

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8506
Click to expand...
I am not waiting all day for that site’s servers to respond.
2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and the duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party
Click to expand...
2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
Click to expand...
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.
Click to expand...
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent.
Click to expand...
The Church, of course wants mercy for all prisoners. That is the role of the Church.

Nowhere in the CCC does it say that capital punishment, the death penalty is never to be used.

The Catholic Church indeed states emphatically that abortion is always grave matter.

It does not say so for the death penalty. It is an opinion and we are not required to hold it as dogma.

Eddie Mac
 
It’s coming up just fine for me Eddie. BTW: I got this link out of the “Ask an Apologist” forum on this site, and it’s not the only reference to the Church’s official stance (in the current catechism) being different from what you think on this issue.

Eddie, please try not to let your political dogma distort your view of Catholic teaching.
 
stormcloud said:
It’s coming up just fine for me Eddie. BTW: I got this link out of the “Ask an Apologist” forum on this site, and it’s not the only reference to the Church’s official stance (in the current catechism) being different from what you think on this issue.

Eddie, please try not to let your political dogma distort your view of Catholic teaching.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t.

Many convicted murderers continue to kill in prison.

The Church allows just war. A convicted killer who is convicted on reliable evidence by a jury and given all of their rights under the Constitution and all of the appeals under law deserves his civil punishment to prevent the further loss of life.

Those who espouse leniency in the judicious use of capital punishment are just as guilty as the murderer.

Such leniency reminds me of the complacency shown by many towards the evil of abortion.

It does not matter which evil you ignore as it all is equal to the same error. I am correct in that this is not dogma and I am allowed to disagree with this as much as I am allowed to disagree on other matters that the Church does not teach infallibly.

Explain your concept to the next family that loses a loved one to a convicted murderer. You are not showing mercy to the ones who are going to die at the hands of those who will kill again. If we are not supposed to be merciful towards the future victims who will surely die, why do we then pray to end abortion?

The Church’s mercy towards the convicted psycopaths should be urging them to accept Jesus’ mercy as they are walked to the execution chamber.

Eddie
 
Eddie,

You clearly refuse to read what you don’t want to see. I’m sorry your political convictions have hijacked your ability to accept the Catholic Catechism. I will pray for your enlightenment.
 
God’s name is not only Truth. By the Truth we should all be condemned. God’s name is also Mercy and it is by that Mercy that we have the chance to spend eternity in everlasing joy. To be Truthful and Merciful is to conform to the likeness of God.
 
stormcloud said:
Eddie,

You clearly refuse to read what you don’t want to see. I’m sorry your political convictions have hijacked your ability to accept the Catholic Catechism. I will pray for your enlightenment.
Click to expand...
While you are at it, pray for my two cousins who are prison guards in the Texas prison system. They are farmers who must supplement their meager means by working second jobs as prison guards.

Both of them have been beaten by inmates.

Eddie Mac
 
Eddie_Mac said:
While you are at it, pray for my two cousins who are prison guards in the Texas prison system. They are farmers who must supplement their meager means by working second jobs as prison guards.

Both of them have been beaten by inmates.

Eddie Mac
Click to expand...
I agree that the Church nowhere “outlaws” capital punishment. However, as a matter of prudential judgment, the Church envisions no reasonable justification in applying it where prisons can effectively shield the innocent public from these killers.

I’ve heard the argument that they can continue to kill in prison. But this is a strawman, in my opinion, unless you believe that the death penalty should be applied to people convicted of much less than murder. Prison murders are not monopolized by people who’ve killed before. If the reason for application is to protect even those working as guards in the prison sytem, then where do you draw the line? Drug dealers who have never killed before certainly have been known to kill in prison. So have gang members who go up on lesser charges. Do we automatically execute all of these people, too, since we know that they stand a good chance of graduating to the level of cold-blooded killer once behind bars? Why stop at murderers? We can certainly deter all murders in prison by simply executing all prisoners.
 
CCC on the death penalty:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2267.htm

**2267 **Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
 
tm30 said:
I agree that the Church nowhere “outlaws” capital punishment. However, as a matter of prudential judgment, the Church envisions no reasonable justification in applying it where prisons can effectively shield the innocent public from these killers.
Click to expand...
The point is that Capital Punishment is not in and of itself an intrinsic evil. Abortion is always and everywhere, no matter the circumstance, whether it is one or fifty million.
 
Ka egr
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

I’m not sure how we got off into this but I do have one or two comments they are:
1:quoting the above to one of the families who lost daughters and sisters to Ted Bundy after he escaped.

Drug dealers who have never killed before certainly have been known to kill in prison. So have gang members who go up on lesser charges. Do we automatically execute all of these people, too, since we know that they stand a good chance of graduating to the level of cold-blooded killer once behind bars? Why stop at murderers? We can certainly deter all murders in prison by simply executing all prisoners.

How can anyone say that a drug dealer (and I don’t necessarily mean a petty hears a dime of hash kind of drug dealer) has never killed? Maybe not with his own hands but he deffinately kills.
 
ryecroft said:
I’m not sure how we got off into this but I do have one or two comments they are:
1:quoting the above to one of the families who lost daughters and sisters to Ted Bundy after he escaped.
Click to expand...
Argument based on emotion rather than reason.
Drug dealers who have never killed before certainly have been known to kill in prison. So have gang members who go up on lesser charges. Do we automatically execute all of these people, too, since we know that they stand a good chance of graduating to the level of cold-blooded killer once behind bars?
Click to expand...
People are protected by such a thing as the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Do you disagree with these documents? The answer to your question however is no. The Church teaches that it is never licit to kill an innocent human being. That goes for the unborn as well. You cannot justify killing the unborn with ridiculous examples of a flawed judicial system. It remains an intrinsic evil.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top