The Role of Women in Islam

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

why, when all your posts–as well as the posts of many others here–are strewn with their fruits?

you mean that the Quran and the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc) are authored by orientalists and Christian missionaries?

also, do you even know what ad hominem means? it doesn’t matter if I quote an orientalist or anyone else, if the orientalist makes an argument and provides evidence, you cannot dismiss that by saying ‘it was written by an orientalist’, that doesn’t refute what the orientalist wrote. you need to refute his argument and evidence if you want to refute what he wrote.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Rachel says if you do not know ad hominen, feel free to “Google” the term ad hominem. There is a WEALTH of information on logical fallacies.

 

[discipleofJesus]

Cyber Knight:

Rachel says if you do not know ad hominen, feel free to “Google” the term ad hominem. There is a WEALTH of information on logical fallacies.

Here’s a good description

Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, “Ad Hominem” means “against the man” or “against the person.”

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of “argument” has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A’s claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Example of Ad Hominem

Bill: “I believe that abortion is morally wrong.”
Dave: “Of course you would say that, you’re a priest.”
Bill: “What about the arguments I gave to support my position?”
Dave: “Those don’t count. Like I said, you’re a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can’t believe what you say.”

Taken from nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

Check out nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html for more descriptions of logical fallacies

 

[Cyber_Knight]

r.gonzales:

my wife, who is a former catholic convert to islam, would tell you differently. she loves the respect and honour bestowed upon her through islam.

nay, We never buy you ever converted from Christianity.

r.gonzales:

what would be a true statement is that some muslim men treat women badly, which i would totally agree with and acknowledge as true.

These are some Quranic verses and hadith narrations :

Sahih Bukhari Book 52, Volume 4, Number 110 :
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
I heard the Prophet saying. “Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house.”

Sahih Bukhari Book 54, Volume 4, Number 460:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angerls will curse her till morning.”

Sahih Bukhari Book 62, Volume 7, Number 126:
The Prophet said, “I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women.”

Quran in Sura 2:223 says:
Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

Quran in Sura 4:11 says:
The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

Quran in Sura 2:282 says:
And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

Quran in Sura 4:24 says:
And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war) . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

Quran in Sura 4:3 says:
And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.
The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:
65:1 O Prophet, when you (and the believers) divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting-period and count the waiting-period accurately . . . 4 **And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. ** As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Many priests like to molest young children…therefore, being that htey are the most learned about the religion, Christianity promotes this. My conclusion is that Christianity promotes what these priests have done!

See how stupid that sounds…that’s what your doing.

Why haven’t you answered my question about whether you believe that poor girl should be executed for defending herself from her rapists? Are you in favor of her execution?

As far as the priests that molested children, the percentage is really very small compared to the thousands of them who are good honest men, who love God, the Church and serve God’s people faithfully!

Text DELETED

Vickie

 

[Ortho]

discipleofJesus:

you mean that the Quran and the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc) are authored by orientalists and Christian missionaries?

also, do you even know what ad hominem means? it doesn’t matter if I quote an orientalist or anyone else, if the orientalist makes an argument and provides evidence, you cannot dismiss that by saying ‘it was written by an orientalist’, that doesn’t refute what the orientalist wrote. you need to refute his argument and evidence if you want to refute what he wrote.

Unfortunately, there have been no arguments provided here from orientalists. It has simply been assertion. It would be interesting to really see an orientalist argument.

 

[Ortho]

Booklover:

Why haven’t you answered my question about whether you believe that poor girl should be executed for defending herself from her rapists? Are you in favor of her execution?

As far as the priests that molested children, the percentage is really very small compared to the thousands of them who are good honest men, who love God, the Church and serve God’s people faithfully!

Vickie

The percentage or Muslim girls who are executed for defending themselves against rape is really small, too.

 

[inJESUS]

.

Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him never hit or even yelled at any of his wives. He is our example that we should follow.

are you sure? you probably did not read the hadith where Aisha narrates being hit by your loving prophet which “caused me pain”…not only did mohaad hit, but he ALLOWED IT as well…i dont see much difference.

to fix the problem we have to eliminate the ignorance that we have of our religion

indeed…find me Jesus talking about hitting your wife or considering her a tilth for sex or asking her to have sex with another man if she wants to go back to her husband who divorced her thrice. Or maybe Jesus allowing mutaa mariage in some time? or Jesus alowing to have slaves and have sex with them…or Jesus telling you : inkahu ma taba lakum min nisa’…TEXT DELETED

 

[discipleofJesus]

Faith101:

Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him never hit or even yelled at any of his wives.

Yes he did. Muhammad hit his wife Aisha.

Sahih Muslim
Book 004, Number 2127:
"Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?.."

Muslim women in the time of Muhammad were also suffering from domestic violence

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:
"Narrated 'Ikrima:

Rifa’a divorced his wife whereupon ‘AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. ‘Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s Apostle came, ‘Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!”…"

 

[George_Waters]

Faith101:

Peace George,

Judge Islam by the Quran and the authentic hadith of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

You dont think that Muslims are outraged by the crazy things that ppl do in the name of Islam? Do you know there is a punishment for men who accuse women of being unchaste without any proof? Now, someone posts someething about a woman who was trying to defend herself being punished with death?? and where is the proof that this is Islamic? there is no proof…only “you prove that its not” Its frustrating…and on top of that, you want us to wave our hands around and yell everytime someone mentiones something like that? whats the point here? In terms of action, there is action being taken all over the world to bring ppl out the darkness that is their ignorance of Islam.

I dont know if you were a member of this forum or not at the time, but someone had posted an article where somewhere in the world…a Muslim girl who was raped by her father in law was forced to marry him. And we sat there posting verses from the Quran, which totally condemn such actions. You know what happened?..nothing… the same ppl that posted that, post things like this.

Faith101,

I do not wish to frustrate you, but Iran is the only Islamic theocratic republic on earth. Why can’t we use Iran to judge how Islam is interpreted on a national level?

I have been told that we should not judge Islam on the actions of bad members of that religion, past or present, and I am told we can not use nations to judge Islam, I am told I should only use the true teachings of the Quran. How am I to know the true teachings? As you know I have ordered an English copy of the Quran, but if I ever post a verse from it that is in my opinion is unfavorable to Islam I will be told I am misinterpreting it or as it is not in Arabic it can not be taken at face value. We have seen r.gonzales do this time and time again. And yes, we do the same to you. As long as members of any religion try to claim a monopoly on truth and try to discount the teachings of another’s religion simply to bolster their own we will have this issue.

You know I want to believe the best about Islam, but we are constantly bombarded by atrocities being done in the name of Islam. The crusades are constantly brought up to judge all Catholics, even though those actions were contrary to the teachings of Jesus, so it is only fair Muslim be held to the same measure.

I was not a member at the time or did not read the thread you mention.

I have asked if the lack of a central authority in Islam contributes to a lack of consistency and erroneous teachings and was assured it does not, but I have to admit I feel that it does.

 

[shockerfan]

Ortho:

However, many folks find passages in the Quran, and insist they are the comnpetent interpreters of those passages. They do not ask how Muslims interpret the passages; rather they tell Muslims how they should be interpreted.

Here is your chance to teach everyone in these forums. Since (I assume) you are Muslim, what is your interpretation of the Quranic verses supplied by decipleofJesus in his posts #47 and #48 that relate to the treatment of women? Please enlighten us.

 

[r.gonzales]

Cyber Knight:

nay, We never buy you ever converted from Christianity.

buy whatever you want. i was born and raised as a protestant, while my wife was born and raised as a catholic before we both embraced islam. whether you believe it or not makes no difference to me.

discipleofJesus:

also, do you even know what ad hominem means?

yes, very well. and i didn’t just learn it a few weeks ago like our friend cyber knight did.

discipleofJesus:

you mean that the Quran and the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc) are authored by orientalists and Christian missionaries?

it’s painfully obvious you didn’t understand my comment to ortho’s post or even what ortho mentioned in that post. re-read post #'s 64 & 65.

discipleofJesus:

it doesn’t matter if I quote an orientalist or anyone else, if the orientalist makes an argument and provides evidence, you cannot dismiss that by saying ‘it was written by an orientalist’, that doesn’t refute what the orientalist wrote. you need to refute his argument and evidence if you want to refute what he wrote.

who said you quoted any orientalists? i said your posts are scattered with their “fruits” i.e., the results of their works; the prejudices, the misconceptions, and the underlying attitudes that permeate their works. the very mindset i referred to in my comment to ortho’s post is clearly evident in your posts concerning islam. you think you know islam better and can present it more accurately than the muslims on this board and thus impose yourself as an authority over and above even what we muslims say—or even what we muslims convey from the scholars of islam themselves. you are the one people who are ignorant about islam must refer to since you are the “honest” and “truth-loving” christian who has “studied” islam and knows what it’s really all about, whereas we muslims are “liars”, followers of the “imposter” muhammad and his “satanic revelation”, “deceptively” trying to hide the “blemishes” of islam from other non-muslims on this site in order to dupe them.

let’s take a look at some of your allegations, as well as some of those posted by injesus to show just how true this observation is in my following post…

 

[r.gonzales]

men are allowed to hit their wives.

verse 4:34 states, the men are responsible over the women because Allah preferred some of them over others and because they spend from their wealth. thus the righteous [women] are obedient, guardians for the absence for what Allah guarded. and those whose discord you fear, then admonish them, and boycott them in the beds, and hit them. then, if they obey you, then do not seek against them any means. surely Allah is High, Great.

firstly, the verse outlines the husband’s responsibility over his wife and his family, to provide for them. it then outlines the procedure the husbands are to employ in dealing with disobedient wives who cause discord and disunity in the family structure; the last measure of which is hitting. this is the last option to a husband before divorce and after he has already admonished her first and boycotted her in the bed. all the Quranic exegetes explain this phrase, “hit them” as meaning hitting that “does not break the bones”, that “does not leave an effect”, that “does not injure”. there is also the general prohibition of striking another in the face, which is considered to be forbidden in islam due to various statements from prophet muhammad in this regard. this verse is not an allowance for men who are unable to restrain themselves from beating their wives to a pulp at the mere hint of discord. there is a procedure to be followed and restrictions to what they are allowed to do.

prophet muhammad’s marriage to aa’ishah & marrying prepubescent girls

the young marriage of aishah by abdur-rahman squires.

deficiency in 'aql (reason, rationale, sanity, mind, intellect) and religion, two women witnesses and majority of hell’s inhabitants

why two women witnesses? & women and the inhabitants of hell.

islam considers the wife a possession.

verses 3:14 states, the love of desires are beautified for man; the women, the children, the vaulted [amounts] of gold and silver, the appraised horses, the cattle, and tilth. that is the enjoyment of the worldly life. and Allah, with Him is the good return.

the verse clearly states that what is listed are the desires that man has for the pleasures of the worldly life, such as family, wealth and property. it makes no mention that wives are man’s possessions, nor does it imply it.

divorcing the wife by oral announcement, women not given such a right.

women have a different right afforded to them. they have the right to ask for an annulment of the marriage, which differs from a divorce and has different rulings pertaining to it as well. the muslim woman is not a prisoner to a marriage that she wants out of.

three divorces

this stipulation is set so that divorce is not taken lightly, with men divorcing their wives and taking them back unrestrictedly. knowing that he may not remarry her after the third divorce will make him think twice about divorcing her in the first place and perhaps encourage him to work things out with his wife before it gets to that point.

your wives are a tilth for you

the verse makes an analogy between propagation of the human race and cultivation. this is because the woman is the “tilth” in which the “seed” is planted. this verse talks of a man’s sexual conduct with one’s wives and informs us that we are allowed to engage in sexual intercourse in the manners that we wish, except for what Allah has forbidden (sodomy). and as is mentioned in the hadeeth that injesus quoted and introduced with his statement, “unnatural sex is allowed” the reason why this verse was revealed was due to the misconceptions that were being spread by the jews of madeenah regarding certain sexual conducts. the portion in the parentheses is an addition from the translator. it is not found in the hadeeth. and what it refers to are cultural norms and practices.

none of these things are evidences for the ill treatment of women in islam.

 

[discipleofJesus]

men are allowed to hit their wives.

verse 4:34 states, the men are responsible over the women because Allah preferred some of them over others and because they spend from their wealth. thus the righteous [women] are obedient, guardians for the absence for what Allah guarded. and those whose discord you fear, then admonish them, and boycott them in the beds, and hit them. then, if they obey you, then do not seek against them any means. surely Allah is High, Great.

firstly, the verse outlines the husband’s responsibility over his wife and his family, to provide for them. it then outlines the procedure the husbands are to employ in dealing with disobedient wives who cause discord and disunity in the family structure; the last measure of which is hitting. this is the last option to a husband before divorce and after he has already admonished her first and boycotted her in the bed. all the Quranic exegetes explain this phrase, “hit them” as meaning hitting that “does not break the bones”, that “does not leave an effect”, that “does not injure”. there is also the general prohibition of striking another in the face, which is considered to be forbidden in islam due to various statements from prophet muhammad in this regard. this verse is not an allowance for men who are unable to restrain themselves from beating their wives to a pulp at the mere hint of discord. there is a procedure to be followed and restrictions to what they are allowed to do.

Even if we accept your explanation as representing true Islam (which I don’t) it is still wrong to hit your wife in any way! Even hitting them lightly is cruel, humiliating, degrading and mean.

Domestic violence in Islam
The Quran on beating wives
by James M. Arlandson
answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm

"According to many Muslims[2], this particular translation is not accurate and particularly, the word beat is incorrect and should be more like a little tap…

When looking at the dictionary translation, it is clear that the Arabic word means beat with the main example also containing this verb giving the meaning to beat up. Muslims that claim otherwise are clearly trying to outwit or deceive and should seriously consider whether they are guilty of trying to change the Qur’an."
answering-islam.org/Women/beat_them.html
(click on link to see rest of article)

Wife Beating In Islam by Silas
answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

A Rebuttal of Jamal Badawi’s “Wife Beating” by Silas
answering-islam.org/Silas/beating_badawi.htm

Saudi television aired a talk show that discussed this issue ( see memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area%20=sr&ID=SR2704 ). Scrolling three-fourths of the way down the link, you can see an Islamic scholar holding up sample rods that husbands may use to hit their wives.
memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area%20=sr&ID=SR2704

prophet muhammad’s marriage to aa’ishah & marrying prepubescent girls

the young marriage of aishah by abdur-rahman squires.

Responses to Islamic Awareness
The Young Marriage of 'Aishah by Andrew Vargo
(responds to the above article by abdur-rahman squires)
answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/aishahage.htm

Was Muhammad a Pedophile? An Examination of Muhammad’s Relationship with a Nine-Year-Old Girl By David Wood
answeringinfidels.com/content/view/73/42/

Muhammad and Aisha Revisited:
An Examination of Muhammad’s Marriage to a Prepubescent Girl And Its Moral Implications By Sam Shamoun
answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

Muhammad, Aisha, Islam, and Child Brides by Silas
answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

 

[Booklover]

George Waters:

Shenango,

What about good Muslim women? What do they get? Perfect health, earthly appetites and multiple husbands?

The same old husbands which they have to share with the 72 houris!

 

[Ortho]

inJESUS:

.
are you sure? you probably did not read the hadith where Aisha narrates being hit by your loving prophet which “caused me pain”…not only did mohaad hit, but he ALLOWED IT as well…i dont see much difference.

indeed…find me Jesus talking about hitting your wife or considering her a tilth for sex or asking her to have sex with another man if she wants to go back to her husband who divorced her thrice. Or maybe Jesus allowing mutaa mariage in some time? or Jesus alowing to have slaves and have sex with them…or Jesus telling you : inkahu ma taba lakum min nisa’…TEXT DELETED

It’s probably difficult to find a bible passage saying such things about Jesus, but it’s easy to find his followers doing such things.

 

[Ortho]

George Waters:

Faith101,

I do not wish to frustrate you, but Iran is the only Islamic theocratic republic on earth. Why can’t we use Iran to judge how Islam is interpreted on a national level?

I have been told that we should not judge Islam on the actions of bad members of that religion, past or present, and I am told we can not use nations to judge Islam, I am told I should only use the true teachings of the Quran. How am I to know the true teachings? As you know I have ordered an English copy of the Quran, but if I ever post a verse from it that is in my opinion is unfavorable to Islam I will be told I am misinterpreting it or as it is not in Arabic it can not be taken at face value. We have seen r.gonzales do this time and time again. And yes, we do the same to you. As long as members of any religion try to claim a monopoly on truth and try to discount the teachings of another’s religion simply to bolster their own we will have this issue.

You know I want to believe the best about Islam, but we are constantly bombarded by atrocities being done in the name of Islam. The crusades are constantly brought up to judge all Catholics, even though those actions were contrary to the teachings of Jesus, so it is only fair Muslim be held to the same measure.

I was not a member at the time or did not read the thread you mention.

I have asked if the lack of a central authority in Islam contributes to a lack of consistency and erroneous teachings and was assured it does not, but I have to admit I feel that it does.

How does one learn the interpretations and meanings of the Christian bible? How does one know the teachings of Christianity? How does one learn the teachings of Buddha? How does one learn the teachings of Hindus? How does one learn about the works of Jefferson?

The answer is very simple. Just study the originals and read a wide variety of commentary about them. Ignorance does not justify fantasy.

On the fairness of judging a religion, if one religion justifies its past actions using a particular rationale, may another use that same rationale to justify its current actions?

You can use Iran only to judge how the people in power in Iran are using Islam at a national level. It applies nowhere else. You also might want to determine if the folks in Iran are accurately applying Islam. That would entail an independent study of Islam and then an analysis of how it has been invoked in Iran, followed by an evaluation of whether islam is actually applied on a national levelk in Iran.

One might also ask if one can use the actions of American Catholic bishops to judge Catholicism. Would their actions be sufficient information?

 

[r.gonzales]

as expected, disciple runs to his beloved christian missionary site, answering-islam.org with more examples of the mindset i described above.

discipleofJesus:

That is cruel, humiliating, degrading and mean.

that’s purely your opinion. the verse outlines, as i mentioned above, a method for dealing with your wife when she is causing discord in the family.

discipleofJesus:

When looking at the dictionary translation, it is clear that the Arabic word means beat with the main example also containing this verb giving the meaning to beat up. Muslims that claim otherwise are clearly trying to outwit or deceive and should seriously consider whether they are guilty of trying to change the Qur’an.

one dictionary’s definition for the word daraba and that’s sufficent proof to refute the explanation of the verse given by the Quranic exegetes whose mastery of the arabic language far excels oxford’s arabic-english dictionary? you’ve got to be kidding me.

the hans wehr arabic-english dictionary has quite a few more definitions under the word daraba than what’s given in those missionary articles you linked to. hans wehr lists, “to beat, strike, hit (someone, something, with; with something on; someone on), shell, bombard (someone, something)…” and the list goes on.

in the Quranic exegeses we find:
al-muyassar: “then hit them with a hitting that contains no harm.”

as-sa’dee: “… otherwise hit them with a hitting that is not severe…”

ibn katheer: “… hit them with a hitting that is not severe… just as ibn 'abbaas (cousin of the prophet) said, ‘a hitting that is not severe.’ al-hasan al-basree said, ‘meaning, doesn’t leave an effect.’ the jurists said, ‘it is that which does not break any limbs nor leave any effect.’ alee bin abee talhah said from ibn 'abbaas, 'one boycotts her in the bed then if she accepts, otherwise Allah has allowed you to hit her with a hitting that is not severe, nor breaks a bone of hers…”

al-baghawee: “… then hit them with a hitting that is not severe nor disgraceful. and 'ataa said, 'a hitting with the siwaak (a small twig used for cleaning the teeth)…”

at-tabaree: “the description of the hitting that Allah allowed for the husband of the naashiz (i.e., the one causing discord) is that he hits her, the non-severe hitting.” then at-tabaree relates 18 narrations supporting this description, among them those that say “non-severe”, “leaving no effect”, “with the siwaak”, “not disgraceful”, and “does not break a bone of hers”.

this is how the muslim scholars understand this verse, among them prophet muhammad’s companions like abdullah bin abbaas, and their students.

 

[Ortho]

shockerfan:

Here is your chance to teach everyone in these forums. Since (I assume) you are Muslim, what is your interpretation of the Quranic verses supplied by decipleofJesus in his posts #47 and #48 that relate to the treatment of women? Please enlighten us.

I have not revealed any personal religion. This is an opportunity, but I decline since I lack sufficient competence in Quranic interpretation. However, I think you would find a number of very good resources at the local mosque, or at an Islamic studies department at a university.

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

as expected, disciple runs to his beloved christian missionary site, answering-islam.org with more examples of the mindset i described above.

as expected you continue with your ad hominems

r.gonzales:

that’s purely your opinion. the verse outlines, as i mentioned above, a method for dealing with your wife when she is causing discord in the family.

no it’s not purely my opinion. just like i know that murdering people is wrong and raping women is wrong, i know that hitting women is wrong. this is my moral sense, something which you seem to lack.

also, where did you get “a method for dealing with your wife when she is causing discord in the family” from? The Quran simply says

“…If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.” Sura 4:34

r.gonzales:

the hans wehr arabic-english dictionary has quite a few more definitions under the word daraba than what’s given in those missionary articles you linked to. hans wehr lists, “to beat, strike, hit (someone, something, with; with something on; someone on), shell, bombard (someone, something)…” and the list goes on.

what does that prove? since it has multiple definitions, how do we know which one to accept?

I know, let’s go see the example of Muhammad to find out

Sahih Muslim
Book 004, Number 2127:
“Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?..”

By the way r.gonzales, i know Arabic so don’t make me laugh

The word in the Quran in 4:34 used for “beat” is “idreb”. It is a conjugate of the word “daraba” which primarily means “to beat, strike, to hit” - Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, page 538.

Anyone who knows how to speak Arabic to a reasonable extant knows that “idreb” almost always means hit in a painful way!