The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[With_Questions]

here is one problem with your current philosophy… The Church existed before the English language.

English dictionaries are have a bias against the Church. Dictionaries are produced by companies that desire to sell books. In the English language, a larger number of books can be sold to non-catholic christians. So the definition is slanted toward the non-catholic point of view. The fault is not yours, that lies within the community which you are a part of.

Then take that up with the dictionary, not with me.

However, the dictionaries are what we use to define the English language.

If you want to redefine words and declare that existing definitions as found in the English dictionary are not valid, go ahead. However, by doing so, you will in effect be creating another language that I do not choose to speak.

So yes, perhaps in your new language the Catholic church is not a denomination. However, in the language that I speak, that being English, it is.

 

[With_Questions]

I dont think your seeing what Jesus established on earth. The Catholic church is not a body of believers with a name as your definition implies from a denomination. The Catholic church is the “body of Jesus Christ” a living Person! “with questions”. This is the fundamental difference that needs to be deciphered.

How can one put a “denomination” term to a living person, the definition or term (denomination) does not apply to the Catholic church.

No one is debating the definition of the word denomination, what is trying to be expressed here, the term does not apply to the Catholic church, because she is living and alive where Jesus himself is sacramentally present always in person. Again “denomination” does not define a person, “only a body of believers with a name”, only Protestantism lay claim to this definition never Catholics.

To come away with a conclusion “that is what you believe” and “this is what I believe” denies Jesus Christ and has not truth, for there is only one “Truth” Truth cannot be divided.

The Catholic church may or may not be all that. Even if it is…

It is still

a recognized branch of a church or religion

(that religion being Christian…unless you want to say that everybody else is not Christian)

and it is still

a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

…and hence it is also a denomination.

Sheesh, is this so difficult to comprehend.

Just because an entity is A, B, C, and D with B,C, and D providing greater definition to A…it does not mean that is ceases to be A. What is the great difficulty here.

 

[Bear_Claw]

What is the great difficulty here.

Arrogance, stubbornness, inflexibility, the list is long…

“It’s our way or hell…err, the highway.”

 

[With_Questions]

Arrogance, stubbornness, inflexibility, the list is long…

“It’s our way or hell…err, the highway.”

That is what I am beginning to think. It is quite amazing that they can not look at the dictionary and just say…you are right…according to the English dictionary we are a denomination.

Then they can go on with the typical lecture on how they are more than a denomination…they are the church that Jesus Christ founded…etc…etc…etc…

 

[Thing]

With Questions:

It is still

Quote:
a recognized branch of a church or [a] religion

But you still don’t get it.
Catholicism is the Church - its not a branch of itself.
Catholicism is the religion - its not a branch of itself.

So under both counts in the definition it does not qualify as a denomination.

 

[Bear_Claw]

That is what I am beginning to think. It is quite amazing that they can not look at the dictionary and just say…you are right…according to the English dictionary we are a denomination.

Then they can go on with the typical lecture on how they are more than a denomination…they are the church that Jesus Christ founded…etc…etc…etc…

They will never give in, because their whole belief system and Traditions are based on this.
If they give any quarter, they cast doubt on their whole faith and belief system, and so a) they will be sinning against the Church, and b) making themselves doubt, also a sin…

And, to loose a debate might mean that they see the light and have to become Protestant! Shudder!
Sorry, I’m in a weird mood this morning…
But, yeah, that’s why they will argue in circles because they can’t concede.

 

[Thing]

Arrogance, stubbornness, inflexibility, the list is long…

“It’s our way or hell…err, the highway.”

Thats what Christ said to you - if you’re not against Me you are for Me. And as we all know St. Paul said that Christ called the Church he was persecuting, His Body. => If one persecutes Christs Church then one persecutes His Body and one is then considered to be against Him. The perennial problem, as always, is, how can I be christian and anti-Catholic at the same time.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The Catholic church may or may not be all that. Even if it is…

It is still

a recognized branch of a church or religion

With Questions:

Imagine a tree, a huge ancient oak. Can you see it? Okay. It is made up of a trunk and branches. The Catholic Church is the trunk, the denominations are the branches. Hence the Church is not a branch, the Protestant denominations are the branches.

Marsha

 

[With_Questions]

But you still don’t get it.
Catholicism is the Church - its not a branch of itself.
Catholicism is the religion - its not a branch of itself.

So under both counts in the definition it does not qualify as a denomination.

You still don’t get it.

Catholicism is not the only church. Your own catechism calls the Orthodox a church.

Catholicism is not the only Christian religion. Your own catechism acknowledges us as Christian.

 

[With_Questions]

With Questions:

Imagine a tree, a huge ancient oak. Can you see it? Okay. It is made up of a trunk and branches. The Catholic Church is the trunk, the denominations are the branches. Hence the Church is not a branch, the Protestant denominations are the branches.

Marsha

Of course the word branch has other meanings that do not relate to a tree.

One meaning (Oxford dictionary) is

a division of a large organization, group, etc.

So again
The Catholic church is a division of the group churches (unless you want to defy your own Catechism and refuse to recognize the Orthodox as a church).

The Catholic church is also a division of the group, entity Christian (unless you want to defy your own Catechism and say that I am not Christian).

Sheesh, what is the great difficulty here. I am not trying to debate theology here. I am just trying to show that even according to your own theology and the English language that you are a denomination.
</repeating myself>

 

[MGLechner]

I can agree with you, BUT…

The Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Christ. All of the other churches left the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church is the oldest and original Christian organisation.

As the fullness of Christian truth and doctrine subsists in the Catholic Church, it is accurate to say that the Roman Church is more than a denomination. It is the Mother Church from which all other christian denominations originate. It is wrong to label this ancient, divine institution as simply another man-made denomination.

Orthodox Christians claim the same birthright, and they think the Catholic Church is in schism. To “denominate” means “to be named apart from…” Therefore, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are named apart from each other. Therefore they are both denominations!

 

[elvisman]

Take a look at the dictionary definitions of denomination please.

Now even if you are correct and everything else is a “rebellious spinoff” (which I of course disagree with but it is not relevant), there is nothing in the dictionary definitions of denomination that are mutually exclusive from the original also being a denomination.

Consider the Methodists. At some point there was one Methodist denomination. Now there are several. However, all of these denominations , including the original can be classified as Methodist denominations.

Hope that helps.

Sorry, but you’re WRONG.

Catholic means Universal - as in the one universal Church that Jesus established (Matt. 16:15-19).

As Sean Boyle has already shown you - the Church pre-existed the English language. I can show you resources from a Catholic Dictionary that say the Catholic church ISN’T a denomination - and you will say that it’s wrong because it’s biased.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Thats what Christ said to you - if you’re not against Me you are for Me.

Here’s that verse for you:

Luke 9:49
Then John said in reply, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow in our company.”
50
Jesus said to him, “Do not prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Sound like that even Jesus was aware of other groups of His Body and didn’t stop them. It gives me pretty clear indication that a) there were more than just the apostles following Jesus, and b) that Jesus was okay with it.

Do you think that Jesus would have responded differently to John if He wanted all Christians to follow the apostles verbatim?
Do you think that Jesus would have put a stop to it if it wasn’t in his plan?

Absolutely.
So, I think we have pretty good evidence, biblically, that Jesus was ok, accepted and didn’t hinder other groups doing deeds in His Name, and proclaiming His Name.

Your denomination is not the end all and be all. Even according to Jesus.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Orthodox Christians claim the same birthright, and they think the Catholic Church is in schism. To “denominate” means “to be named apart from…” Therefore, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are named apart from each other. Therefore they are both denominations!

This is right on the nose!

Great explination and hopefully another side of the coin for them to see.

 

[NDfan]

Sorry, but you’re WRONG.

Catholic means Universal - as in the one universal Church that Jesus established (Matt. 16:15-19).

As Sean Boyle has already shown you - the Church pre-existed the English language. I can show you resources from a Catholic Dictionary that say the Catholic church ISN’T a denomination - and you will say that it’s wrong because it’s biased.

Elvis my brother is Notre Dame going to play better this year or what?? Hopefully the blowout of Hawaii is a preview of the upcoming year.

I’ll say this on this topic. I agree that the universal church could never be a denomination. That would be like saying Jesus started a denomination Jesus started Christianity and built a church we call universal because it has no bounds. There’s no denomination there.

Now that begs the question. Is the Roman Church a denomination? Is the Eastern Orthodox Church a denomination? I believe your answer will be the Roman Catholic church is the original church so no it can’t be a denomination. But I think this is the stumbling point of the argument. Many Protestants do not see the Roman Catholic Church as being the original church because of the creation of some specific doctrines they think were not part of the original church. I’m including all Rites within this mind you. Simply that underneath the umbrella of Christianity you have denominations which includes Roman Catholics and their doctrines, EOs and theirs, Presbyterians, Methodists etc. etc. and theirs.

I think you’re assertion is that the Roman Catholic Church IS the initial umbrella. Is that a fair statement? If so then this discussion will never get resolved so you would have to just agree to disagree.

 

[Thing]

Here’s that verse for you:

Sound like that even Jesus was aware of other groups of His Body and didn’t stop them. It gives me pretty clear indication that a) there were more than just the apostles following Jesus, and b) that Jesus was okay with it.

Do you think that Jesus would have responded differently to John if He wanted all Christians to follow the apostles verbatim?
Do you think that Jesus would have put a stop to it if it wasn’t in his plan?

Absolutely.
So, I think we have pretty good evidence, biblically, that Jesus was ok, accepted and didn’t hinder other groups doing deeds in His Name, and proclaiming His Name.

Your denomination is not the end all and be all. Even according to Jesus.

So you’re not against the Catholic Church? Because thats the condition.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

So again
The Catholic church is a division of the group churches (unless you want to defy your own Catechism and refuse to recognize the Orthodox as a church).

The Catholic church is also a division of the group, entity Christian (unless you want to defy your own Catechism and say that I am not Christian).

Sheesh, what is the great difficulty here. I am not trying to debate theology here. I am just trying to show that even according to your own theology and the English language that you are a denomination.
</repeating myself>

With Questions:

Many believe that if they repeat an inaccuracy loud enough and often enough it will become accurate. It won’t, but you just keep on repeating it . . . maybe if you cross your fingers and click your heels while you repeat it . . . no, even then it won’t work. Sorry.

The Catholic Church is NOT a division of Christianity, hence it is not a branch of Christianity, hence it is not a denomination. Only Protestant groups are denominations. The Orthodox Church is not Protestant, hence it is not a denomination.

 

[With_Questions]

I think you’re assertion is that the Roman Catholic Church IS the initial umbrella. Is that a fair statement? If so then this discussion will never get resolved so you would have to just agree to disagree.

Actually, what I am saying is that even if the Roman Catholic Church IS the “initial umbrella” per the dictionary it is still a denomination.

 

[With_Questions]

Sorry, but you’re WRONG.

OK. Because you say so I suppose.
Catholic means Universal - as in the one universal Church that Jesus established (Matt. 16:15-19).

As Sean Boyle has already shown you - the Church pre-existed the English language. I can show you resources from a Catholic Dictionary that say the Catholic church ISN’T a denomination - and you will say that it’s wrong because it’s biased.

I use the English dictionary not the Catholic dictionary. English is the language that I speak.

If you want to speak to me in another language go ahead. However in the language that I speak, the Catholic church is a denomination.

 

[NDfan]

With Questions:

Many believe that if they repeat an inaccuracy loud enough and often enough it will become accurate. It won’t, but you just keep on repeating it . . . maybe if you cross your fingers and click your heels while you repeat it . . . no, even then it won’t work. Sorry.

The Catholic Church is NOT a division of Christianity, hence it is not a branch of Christianity, hence it is not a denomination. Only Protestant groups are denominations. The Orthodox Church is not Protestant, hence it is not a denomination.

Marsha how can the Orthodox church not be a denomination? One church has to be the original. Which is it?? I agree the original is not a denomination but the others would be. So if the Orthodox is the original then the RCC is a denomination and vice versa. You can’t have 2 originals.