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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I may know more about Luther and Calvin than you imagine. Many of today’s Protestants are better Catholics than Catholics.
But I do not expect either understanding or sympathy.
- Status
But I do not expect either understanding or sympathy.
H
Huiou_Theou
Guest
Your sentence doesn’t make sense; the burial was relaxed for a whole day, that’s the point of the sabbath.
The ten commandments were delivered as part of the Jewish Law and covenant. The particular form of those statements, written on Stone – and not flesh, don’t apply to Catholics in the same way. It is because of the hardness of their hearts that God wrote the command on stone.
Each of the commandments, as written, is a figure or sketch of the divine law that is to be written in our hearts as Christians. But, the moment one is baptized, the legal observance of the Saturday sabbath is abrogated. There is no longer a penalty for breaking the Saturday observance; Nor does the church “make” Sunday a replacement for the “sabbath” in legal observance. (See sabbath in the CCC ).
However, all Mary did was allow God the son to “rest” on the sabbath. The purpose of the sabbath is as a safeguard against temptation toward single minded pursuit of wealth.
As Jesus said, “one can’t serve two masters, God and Mammon”.
If one works on Sunday – fine; that is acceptable; But what is not acceptable is that the entire week is dedicated only to work; nor that one should forsake family for pursuing money. If one works Sunday, they need to spend some of Monday or Tuesday, etc. reading to their children, visiting the elderly, or many other human relationship oriented tasks.
Here, where I live, all the locally owned stores close on Sunday. Only the three chain stores from out of town (FredMeyers, & WalMart & Walgreen’s) and fast food places/gas stations do not. This is an evangelical Christian dominated part of Oregon; but even so, I don’t feel guilty for doing work on Sunday – but I do, out of piety, try to offer any work done as charity; and not for my own profit.
But, I don’t complain that others like to have “civil war” on football Sunday; and enjoy a game or two. I don’t think that’s appropriate for me to do. All I hope to do is encourage them to be with friends, family, and neighbors on such a day – and leave the career pursuits alone for a few hours if possible. (including gambling…)
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Julian0404
Guest
HUIOU THEOU
In reviewing again the CCC on Sabbath, as you advised, para 2185 brings the point I am making to the forefront:
2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to GOD, the joy proper to the LORD’s Day the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body. Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse one from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
My point is, that compared to the activity of the Virgin Mary, who did interrupt the full and proper prepartion and burial of Her SON, JESUS, - and did so soley and entirely on the approaching Sabbath - that we, the N.T. Christians, have become so desensitized to knowing, acknowledging and practicing a true day of rest for the LORD, that we cannot expect to be able to fullfill the remaining Commandments of GOD. If we can’t “rest in the LORD”, then how can we be expected to “work in the LORD” consistantly, regularly with a purpose that leads our returning this nation, once again to the LORD?
So, as we enter into our Sunday, are our activites giving Honor to GOD? I look around and recall the negotiations Abraham had with GOD regarding Sodom, “…LORD, what if there are at least ten there?..” I think it would be a struggle to find 10 who are keeping the Sunday day of rest in honor of GOD.
In reviewing again the CCC on Sabbath, as you advised, para 2185 brings the point I am making to the forefront:
2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to GOD, the joy proper to the LORD’s Day the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body. Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse one from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
My point is, that compared to the activity of the Virgin Mary, who did interrupt the full and proper prepartion and burial of Her SON, JESUS, - and did so soley and entirely on the approaching Sabbath - that we, the N.T. Christians, have become so desensitized to knowing, acknowledging and practicing a true day of rest for the LORD, that we cannot expect to be able to fullfill the remaining Commandments of GOD. If we can’t “rest in the LORD”, then how can we be expected to “work in the LORD” consistantly, regularly with a purpose that leads our returning this nation, once again to the LORD?
So, as we enter into our Sunday, are our activites giving Honor to GOD? I look around and recall the negotiations Abraham had with GOD regarding Sodom, “…LORD, what if there are at least ten there?..” I think it would be a struggle to find 10 who are keeping the Sunday day of rest in honor of GOD.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean; do you mean you yourself have become desensitized and a group of Catholics with you?
Personally, I take time on Sunday to talk to other Christians on CAF; to pray; and rest. Often I hold my daughter on my lap, and we watch “Madeline” cartoons together and talk about them. But sometimes I sleep the whole day.
So, I’m not sure of this “we” you speak of.
The end of the quote you give re-enforces what I have just said – “habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health”; These are the things that the Sunday rest are supposed to support. If one rests on Sunday but does nothing to help family, religion, and health – they have essentially broken the meaning of the Sunday rest.
It was pope John Paul II; in some of his Wednesday audiences that pointed out what the church desires of Catholics on Sunday. And in the Catechism, it even formally says near the paragraph you are quoting that Sunday is not another Sabbath.
**2175 **Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:
It does not say, “its ceremonial observance by doing what was done on Saturday by Jews, or in reference to the old law” Mary’s actions have nothing to do with Sunday as we know it now – for even her actions came before he arose on Sunday. Your proposal certainly has shock effect, but why do you compare me to her in this particular way?
Again, the commandments are a figure; I think you might be confusing our traditional attachment to them as an outline for moral teaching with their specific contents.
Sabbath doesn’t mean “rest” it means “protest” or “cease” if I recall its etymology correctly. No one can truly rest in the sense of the Sabbath, until they rest in God in the beatific vision. No act one does here on earth is really “rest” in that sense – and therefore Sunday is but a “sign” (figure) announcing what will happen when we enter into heaven and God’s eternal rest. Sunday, then, is a sacramental not a sacrament in and of itself.
Sunday is really a day of purpose; and in the quote you cite, notice it doesn’t say you can’t work “If work doesn’t interfere with worshipping God.”. It also isn’t appropriate to say that “work” automatically interferes with the worship of God. For priests work all Sunday with many masses… and there are other “works” which do not interfere with worship of God.
A father, poor, earning a living on a Sunday does not dishonor God by doing so.
A father, rich, earning a few spare dollars on a Sunday does.
A bachelor witnessing to Christ in his work place can honor God more than him sleeping at home. The entire reality of the meaning of Sunday is to avoid that which “interferes” with the worship of God. And again, Pope John Paul II made it clear in his Wednesday audiences that the particular day one does this on need not be Sunday. The church discipline requires one to attend mass on Sunday, unless a legitimate excuse occurs. These excuses don’t need to be extreme for Jesus’ burdens are light.
There are 8 in my family alone; and my wife is more fundamentalist in her interpretation of Sunday rest than I am. In these two towns we are in – with closed shops on Sunday — there are more than 10 people observing Sunday, to be sure.
This place that I am in, though, is the least Catholic I know of and is full of woes of other kinds. In what way would you see “Honor” (and not Honorarium given in the collection) of God on Sunday to be raised here by a more rigorous observance of Sunday? The non-Catholics are still … non-Catholic.
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jcrichton
Guest
I may have misjudged your reply (that you may be reasoning on superficial reasonsexcuse for leaving the Church as if they were important issues); I did not mean to imply that you lacked knowlledge on any subject.
…Catholics can be as confused as any and may follow social wisdom rather than the Church’s Doctrines… still that only reflects on the individual’s lack of obedience and commitment. To me, leaving the Church is akin to abondoning a spouse and/or children… so your statement confused me since such grave and often permanent act should not be as a result of confrontational experiences such as the ones on threads such as this one.
Maran atha!
Angel
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GEddie
Guest
Angel; maranatha indeed
Most people don’t see deconversion in the same way you do, however. I deconverted from the Church in 1988 and stayed out for five years; and did not believe I was “abandoning” anybody, except maybe family cultural roots, which did not mean that much to me.
I honestly believed at the time that all religions were equivalent and which one somebody belonged to was strictly a function of where and to whom one was born: if one was born in Mexico or to a Mexican family, one was Catholic, but if born in Riyadh, one would have been a Muslim, etc. So to me there was nothing wrong with entering another church owing to a faith crisis in one’s life. It was years before I found out that only the Catholic faith makes full sense Biblically.
I imagine that many of those who leave feel the same way; and so a strong enough “confrontation” experience can indeed drive someone out. We should just pray that such instances become rare and that those affected by them can find the truth.
ICXC NIKA.
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Julian0404
Guest
Huiou Theou
My use of the pronoun “…we…” is very clear and attches directly to N.T. Christians, which are all christians alive today who believe in JESUS.
Quote by Huiou Theou
Again, the commandments are a figure; I think you might be confusing our traditional attachment to them as an outline for moral teaching with their specific contents
Well lets examine this statement:
First, the use of the word “figure” reflects insignificance as is they are musem pieces to be viewed but not followed - wrong.
Second, recall where the 10 Commandments rest today. They rest where GOD told Moses to place them, inside the Ark of the Covenant - the old one covered in gold. The fact that the whereabouts of this first Ark of the Covenant is unknown at the moment, is immaterial to the fact that it was designed by GOD and holds HIS 10 Commandments by HIS direct order. So do not be coy with their importance.
Third I am not confusing any “specific content” with “traditional . . . moral teaching”, because that is one and the same. Their content teaches us morals - very specifically.
Fourth, lets see how the CCC - a reference you called forth - addresses the 10 Commandments as regards their “moral teaching”, in which case I call forth Paragraph 1454 of the CCC which reads as regards to the sacrament of forgiveness
**The reception of this Sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the the light of the Word of GOD. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings
The CCC very purposefully makes the 10 Commandments references for moral behavior and teaching.
You are correct in your declaration that Sunday is not the Sabbath - never said it was, never the point.
The point is that our behavior - New Testament Christians - on the day of the LORDS appointed rest - Sunday for Christians - is no longer giving honor to GOD, but only to ourselves and our activities for enjoyment or distraction. And therefore, is it any surprise that the American holocaust of abortion has continued for so long? If we do not understand how to “rest in the LORD”, how can we understand how to stop our nation from the continuation of legalized murder?**
My use of the pronoun “…we…” is very clear and attches directly to N.T. Christians, which are all christians alive today who believe in JESUS.
Quote by Huiou Theou
Again, the commandments are a figure; I think you might be confusing our traditional attachment to them as an outline for moral teaching with their specific contents
Well lets examine this statement:
First, the use of the word “figure” reflects insignificance as is they are musem pieces to be viewed but not followed - wrong.
Second, recall where the 10 Commandments rest today. They rest where GOD told Moses to place them, inside the Ark of the Covenant - the old one covered in gold. The fact that the whereabouts of this first Ark of the Covenant is unknown at the moment, is immaterial to the fact that it was designed by GOD and holds HIS 10 Commandments by HIS direct order. So do not be coy with their importance.
Third I am not confusing any “specific content” with “traditional . . . moral teaching”, because that is one and the same. Their content teaches us morals - very specifically.
Fourth, lets see how the CCC - a reference you called forth - addresses the 10 Commandments as regards their “moral teaching”, in which case I call forth Paragraph 1454 of the CCC which reads as regards to the sacrament of forgiveness
**The reception of this Sacrament ought to be prepared for by an examination of conscience made in the the light of the Word of GOD. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic Letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings
The CCC very purposefully makes the 10 Commandments references for moral behavior and teaching.
You are correct in your declaration that Sunday is not the Sabbath - never said it was, never the point.
The point is that our behavior - New Testament Christians - on the day of the LORDS appointed rest - Sunday for Christians - is no longer giving honor to GOD, but only to ourselves and our activities for enjoyment or distraction. And therefore, is it any surprise that the American holocaust of abortion has continued for so long? If we do not understand how to “rest in the LORD”, how can we understand how to stop our nation from the continuation of legalized murder?**
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Sabbath means Saturday and other feast days in the Mosaic Covenant; We do not require Sabbathing on Saturday’s — therefore, yes, the specific content of the command – at the time it was given – are a museum piece for Catholics; not for Jews or seventh day Adventists…(are you either?). Catholics do not require special worship on the specific days Moses indicated; You appear to be accusing the Catholic church of disobeying the moral law which I find laughable.
They, as WRITTEN, are extremely important to the Jews. They, under their covenant are still bound to the Saturday rest. We are not. I am not the one being coy, here; I am being direct.
The specific content of the commandment is on the “Sabbath”; Sabbath, as defined by Moses is a set of days on the calendar year; and a set of years and special feasts. But it is not immoral to ignore that Specific Content of DAYS and YEARS; the specific content and their moral meaning (do not be a slave to money and the wold at all times) are quite different things.
In the Catholic Catechism, it is quite clear that the command for “rest” is not fulfilled on earth. And it is quite clear that you are talking about something we must do here on earth. Again, the Sunday rest is an announcement (figure) of the Eternal rest of God.
No; The LORDS appointed rest is in heaven;
**2175 **Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:
The word “announces” does not mean “IS”; Sunday, the Catechism does not say IS God’s eternal rest nor that Sunday “Causes” God’s eternal rest; therefore Sunday is not one of the Seven Sacraments; NOR is it God’s eternal rest. The only thing left is that Sunday is a sacramental; a sign “prefiguring” an eternal rest.
Far from being “insignificant” it is a sign and “significant”
Man can’t worship God and Money. For us, it is enough that we be ready to let go of money and strengthen our resolve to use (but not abuse) it. Protesting against the servitude of mammon and idols as a reminder of what our attitude must be to enter God’s kingdom.
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fisherman_carl
Guest
I just want to address the OP’s original question. The Saturday Sabbath was a practice by all Jews of which Mary was a Jew. And that would explain why she honored the Saturday Sabbath. In addition, Jesus hadn’t rose from the dead yet in the example you are giving so the practice of the Lord’s day had not yet being instituted. It is very likely that Mary, a Christian, honored the Lord’s day with the other Christians when it had been instituted. She was in the upper room with the disciples when they received the Holy Spirit (Act 1-2).
The practice of the Lord’s day was mentioned even in scripture (see Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 ). As far as why most Christians don’t honor the Saturday Sabbath today, that requires some history. But, it is basically for the same reason that Christians are not required to be circumcised as mentioned in Acts 15 and Romans. Many of the Jewish ceremonial practices like circumcision, Sabbath day, and other ceremonial laws no longer required for gentiles or Jewish Christians under the New Covenant.
In the Catholic Church we honor the command to have one day to honor the Lord and that day we do that is on Sunday, also called the Lord’s day, because that is the day that the Lord rose from the dead. The Jews do not practice the Lord’s day because they are not Christian.
Here is a good article with a number of quotes from Church Fathers about this issue
catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday
When Jesus listed the commands of what one must obey in order to inherit eternal life the Saturday Sabbath was not one of them.
He said, “You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother.’”
And he gave us the command to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. He expanded on the commandments in Mt 5-7, but did not make any requirements on the Sabbath.
Isn’t it interesting how the Pharisees tried to accuse Jesus of not honoring the Sabbath.
"Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.”
- Mk 2:27
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jcrichton
Guest
…and the learning continues!Angel; maranatha indeed
Most people don’t see deconversion in the same way you do, however. I deconverted from the Church in 1988 and stayed out for five years; and did not believe I was “abandoning” anybody, except maybe family cultural roots, which did not mean that much to me.
I honestly believed at the time that all religions were equivalent and which one somebody belonged to was strictly a function of where and to whom one was born: if one was born in Mexico or to a Mexican family, one was Catholic, but if born in Riyadh, one would have been a Muslim, etc. So to me there was nothing wrong with entering another church owing to a faith crisis in one’s life. It was years before I found out that only the Catholic faith makes full sense Biblically.
I imagine that many of those who leave feel the same way; and so a strong enough “confrontation” experience can indeed drive someone out. We should just pray that such instances become rare and that those affected by them can find the truth.
ICXC NIKA.
I’ve truly never seen it that way… I’ve always thought that those who left the Church were seeking “modern” pastures where they could be free to roam (or is it “of Rome”–an attempt at levity
).I concur with you; I always end my prayer with a clause that we all be One!
Maran atha!
Angel
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stevekehl
Guest
So Catholic churches that hold Saturday evening Mass are apostate? My point was that we are not restricted to Satuday worship under the New Covenant. A Jew would never have gone to synagogue on a Wednesday night, but if we are prevented from attending worship for a good reason (sickness, work, etc…) we can worship at a midweek service, remember “where two or three are gathered in my name, there I Am also.”
By the way, weren’t Jews who worshipped on the first day of the week breaking with tradition and religious authority as well. Protestants are Christians too, my brother.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
As I said, I do not expect understanding, much less sympathy. Only the kind of answer that ultimately drives people further from the church.
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jcrichton
Guest
…still, I am not an authority in the Catholic Church so if you (everyone that reads my posts) find me confusing there are several recourses to take (which includes simplifying the query to one particular item per post in order to get a more detail exchange, ignore the response, consult the local Priest/Bishop…); prayer also comes to mind–we can never exhaust the value of prayer!
Maran atha!
Angel
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
I think it would be good if you could provide a link to this interpretation; for it speaks also to the question of the kosher laws, and the eating of meats unclean; and the statement Jesus makes:
John 5:16 Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work.
For some Jews took the stance that eating meats unclean was reason enough to die; Some Jewish fighters refused to defend themselves on the Sabbath, receiving death. But I have heard from a Father Vincent Benoit (OP) that eating such meats did not render one sinful, but only momentarily unclean. And other Jews, for the sake of the existence of the promise of the tribes fought on Sabbaths to prevent the extinction of a promised tribe.
Anyone else know more detail?
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Yoda-le-he-hooo… what would YODA do? and wwJD!There are two things which happened on Saturday; Jesus rested in a tomb; Mary protested (Sabbathed) between his death and the second burial (death). On Sunday, Her protest was part of a victory! How many Union members wish theirs were heard by the Father too?
Saturday and the sabbath PREFIGURES some things in reference to Christ.
Was not, Mary, the Magdalane who annointed his feet also at the Tomb; “Rabboni!” The one who annointed (Christos) his feet before the uncertain death?
Oh, Benadam, quote for us what Jesus’ Mother did DO on Sunday!!!
A Rose rosarium contemplationarium mystery GLORIAM.
:clapping:
And, Bury the dead??? (Corporus works of Mercy).
…They already did it Friday before evening…
The hokee problem is that the Sabbath prefiguring Christ (the annointing) is seven weeks too early on that Sunday. It WASN’T time yet… Sabbath of Sabbaths; 7 of 7=49+1=50th. It is never a mercy to bury alive except as a seed, and then – don’t dig it up – “I have not yet ascended to the father???” (sort of touchy argument)
Catholics are ALWAYS getting their hands on corpses; why else are they made incorruptable, except to keep our hands clean. The father must shake Moses’ onerous head in heaven.
What if they had come on the Sabbath, and wound his face with tight bandages like Lazarus; “Lazarus, COME OUT! … uhhhhhh… ? …CMon! Someone untie him…?!”
Those “chains of Love”.
The head wrapping was NEATLY rolled up in a corner of the tomb by itself; (NO?!) undoubtedly the first thing to really get in his face when he woke up.
The pope did add glorious mysteries to the rosary; I had always wondered why the original rosary did not have them. They are certainly some of the best.Fr. Vincent Benoit OPenly frowned on them; I think they’re too much for his aess-thetic study.
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Dymphna82
Guest
It all just sounds like a slippery slope to me. I don’t like the slippery slopes I’ve been seeing since I came back to the church. Everything is made easier and simpler, as if we no longer think God is worth the extra effort.
Life used to be harder and people were more reverent.
Life used to be harder and people were more reverent.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
Yeah, I agree. It’s like a greased band-aid ™. You never know where it is going.
But going nowhere isn’t fashionable these days; so what’s wrong with downhill fast?
ouch: Rhetoric! I couldn’t help myself. ).You are right, though, No one likes to think any more, it seems; hey we have computers! it’s definitely easier. Hi, how are you? kemosabe !!HOW!! hi are you? Glad to meet you! love you!
:kiss4you: :bluelite:!=:slapfight: :sad_bye: :stretcher: =
What does it all mean? :blushing:
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Benadam
Guest
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
:juggle:Thats semi-biblical; I think we need a new word — “Ambassading”; You are ambassadors for Christ as if he himself… (she herself?) Well, man is inclusive.
{ 2Cori 5:20 }
Yeah, she ambassaded on our behalf, showing what she thought of this “death” stuff.
Is that too complicated?
News Flash:
The Other Mary, Theotokos, acted as an ambassador to the People of God; staging a walk out to show the king of this world what she thought of his power.
Meanwhile, Satan tried to deal a coup de grace with Band-Aid™ corporation smear tactics, However, the imposter failed. The minister of defense (2Cori 6:2), was none the less blamed for 's motherly tactics right in the kisser.
Details at the end of the world.
Si, Latino e-spanol – MEDIATRIX MEDIATRIX MEDIATRIX… aribba andele andele andrew…
I could be wrong, it’s not like I re-read the verse in Greek or anything, but it’s somewhere along those lines. 2Cori 6:2 ( KJV: salve-ation, have I succored thee!? )
I can see the general connection you appear to be allowing; eg: there is a reference to the “third” day and the “wedding feast”;The only insight I might have on that comes from the Gospel of John.
John 2
Mary was given to the beloved disciple, John, at the crucifixion – and in the resurrection account; John runs to the tomb ahead of Peter (but doesn’t go in until Peter arrives) – so that I would expect, since Mary has been taken by him as one of his treasures; that on the second day – she was most likely with John – and it follows that on the third day we could infer she would also have been with the disciple Jesus loved, as well.
Sometimes an exact reversal has meaning; irony, etc. And normally the Groom isn’t invited to his own wedding…
I’ll mull it over a bit longer; but it is a mildly provocative start. Thanks.
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Benadam
Guest
I’m thinking that because of the exclusive character of St Mary’s intimacy with the Incarnation it follows that her intimacy with the resurrection is likely of the same character.
On Sunday Mary saw what she was praying for Saturday. Like Abraham she had seen His Day and was glad. I’m thinking only Jesus’ mother had faith eneough in Jesus to be praying for what no one else could because no one else would believe the resurrection possible.
Sooooo, on the third day it was Jesus’ mother who St John describes as ‘there’ and everyone else are ‘also invited’. Hmmm??
- Status