The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[guanophore]

How do you know with any certainity that a dead saint has heard your prayer? How do you know if that “saint” you may be praying to is in hell or purgatory? Can they hear and do something from these places?

This is a very good question. Those persons who are declared as “saints” by the church go through a rigorous process to be declared as such. When they meet the criteria, and are declared as such, we know that they are in heaven.

How do I know that, if I ask you to pray for me, that you reallly will? Trust. God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and the saints are conformed to His will, which means that they, too, desire all men to be saved.

How do you know with any certainity that a dead saint has heard your prayer? How do you know if that “saint” you may be praying to is in hell or purgatory? Can they hear and do something from these places?

You may want to look at the context for the last part here. Paul is not talking about those who have died physically, but those who are “died” spiritually in Christ and continue to live in this world. See Romans 6 1-11 and compare with Colossians 3:1-4

Yes, I am aware of the context. Physical death does not change their relationship to Christ, or to HIs Body. He only has One Body, and we are all parts of it. One part cannot say to another “I have no need of you”.

 

[justasking4]

How did you come to be Pope, that it is now your duty to tell other Christians how to practice their faith?

I have a responsiblity in Christ to those who claim to follow Christ to either follow the truth and to reject error. If you take your faith seriously as it appears you do, you have the same responsilbity.
What would you do if you saw some one not practicing their faith as a catholic correctly?

Where did your scriptures come from?

God.

The Church is right because Jesus promised to make Her right, not because of how long she has been here.

I wish this was so. The Scriptures make no such claim about it and history is littered with all kinds of errors of your church and mine.

You are right. It is about asking the righteous in heaven to intercede for us, and they are very much alive!

You misunderstand me then. The righteous in heaven do not intercede for us.

We believe, as scripture teaches, that there is only One Body. Those who have shed the veil of flesh are not less a part of the Body. We also believe, as scripture teaches, that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It seems that you clearly don’t understand, and don’t want to understand. You believe they are dead, Catholics believe they are alive. It is a difference of perception.

I’m not arguing the issue of their being alive but there ability to hear you and do something about it. Its not just perception but how we know what we know about this kind of thing.

You are right. Asking for the intercession of the saints has nothing to do with praying to the dead.

You are right. The scriptures teach that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and the scriptures teach that the Holy Ones are in the presence of God. And the scriptures teach that the saints in heaven present our prayers in golden bowls before the altar of God.

Apparently you don’t understand the ministry of intercession, either.

Not so. i understand it and its unbiblical.

It is not an issue for Catholics, because we know those Saints who have gone before uso have passed are alive in Christ.

Is it not true that your church does not really know who is in heaven and who is not?
There are other related issues to this. Purgatory factors in on this belief also. For one, you don’t know who is there, for how long, and if they can hear prayers from there.

 

[justasking4]

Because most Protestants don’t even realize where their bibles came from.

Do you think this is true also of catholics?

They don’t know they were written by Catholics, or preserved by the Catholic Church, and they don’t know that Reformers took books out. They think that we “added” books!

 

[guanophore]

This testimony is what we call the Scriptures which we believe they have their source in God. You don’t have this testimony of the scriptures to support praying to the saints. You must assume this without the scriptures and rely on speculation.

You have not answered my question about where you thought the scriptures came from. You say here they have their source in God. How did they get in front of you today? Did they drop out of the sky into your lap?

The source of the teaching about praying to the saints is the same source that gave you that Bible. If you disregard Sacred Tradition, then you need to disregard your Bible too!
justasking4;2455741:

Then look at the grounds for their claims about this. If revelation (Scripture) doesn’t teach this, then you are left with the speculations of men.

On the contrary! If you do not accept the testimony of those men about the authenticity of the scripture, then you are only left with your OWN speculation!

There could also be other reasons for your personal expierences that have nothing to do with the saints.

I suppose that God is able to work miracles by whatever avenue He desires!

ed infallible Sacred Tradition. For me, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

How do you know they are reliable on this specific matter?

The Scriptures, which I regard as inspired and infallible, testify that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, therefore, I can confidently rely on the Church. Jesus promised that He would send HIs spirit to guide the Church into all truth and I believe that He is able to keep his promises!

I would offer you the same advice for a couple of reasons.
1- Scripture does not teach such a thing
2- Christ alone, directly to Him is more than sufficent for you.
3- since 2 is correct, praying to saints is totally unnecessary.

Yes. Praying to anyone but Christ and is something no Christian should ever do.

I marvel that you feel you have the authority to tell others what Christians should and should not do.

Christ established His Church, so obviously, He seemed to think it was necessary. He made Himself present in the lives of others who have gone on before me, forming “a great cloud of witnesses” so He must have felt that was necessary. His sacred scriptures instruct all the saints to pray for one another “without ceasing” (which we cannot do in the flesh because we have to sleep, and do other things) so he must have thought intercession for one another was necessary.

It is sad that you think all these things that Christ created are unnecessary, but I will respectfully agree to disagree with you. You have clarified a comment I hear often on EWTN, about Catholics having the “fullness of truth”, since you have shown so clearly how you have excised the Apostolic Teaching, and rejected it for yourself.

 

[guanophore]

I have a responsiblity in Christ to those who claim to follow Christ to either follow the truth and to reject error. If you take your faith seriously as it appears you do, you have the same responsilbity.

I am not sure what qualifies you to decide what is truth, and what is not, and what the responsibilities of others may be. However, the forum rules explicity state that it is not allowed for you to come in here and try to instruct members of the Board in how to practice their faith, or to pull them away from the Catholic Teachings, as you have been doing on this thread. This type of violation will get you banned from the Board.

We are not here to be evangelized by outsiders. We are here to answer questions about the faith, and for myself, to learn how to express my practice of the faith to those who don’t understand. If you have questions, you may pose them, but you are not permitted to proselytize or deride Catholic practice. If you want to do that, you will have to go to another venue.

What would you do if you saw some one not practicing their faith as a catholic correctly?

This is a good question, but is off topic in this thread, which is another violation of the forum rules.

Since you are not a Catholic, and clearly do not understand or respect Catholic Teaching, it seems to me that you are not in a position to correct my faith practice.

The Scriptures make no such claim about it and history is littered with all kinds of errors of your church and mine.

Apparently there are a number of passages about Christ establishing His church in scripture that you do not know about, or do not understand. This is a good place to find out! However, it is off topic in this thread. In the meantime, I recommend some research in the origin of that Bible of yours. You may be surprised how God sent it to you!

You misunderstand me then. The righteous in heaven do not intercede for us.

You know, you might be right about that. They perhaps are not as presumptuous as you, and may not find themselves in a position to over ride your own faith practice. Perhaps they don’t pray for you because you don’t ask them. Perhaps they are only praying for me, because I asked them!

Quote:
We believe, as scripture teaches, that there is only One Body. Those who have shed the veil of flesh are not less a part of the Body. We also believe, as scripture teaches, that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

The scriptures teach that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, and the scriptures teach that the Holy Ones are in the presence of God. And the scriptures teach that the saints in heaven present our prayers in golden bowls before the altar of God.

Quote:
Apparently you don’t understand the ministry of intercession, either.

Not so. i understand it and its unbiblical.

Oh my lands! That one blew me away! However, that is also a topic for another thread. Do you want to make one, or shall I ?

There are other related issues to this. Purgatory factors in on this belief also. For one, you don’t know who is there, for how long, and if they can hear prayers from there.

That is true, but it does not hurt to ask their prayers. Besides, you don’t believe in purgatory! Saints, by virtue of their being saints, are not in purgatory.

 

[guanophore]

Do you think this is true also of catholics?

Yes, I think there are far too many poorly catechized Catholics. However, they don’t tend to whack people over the head with their truncated bibles.

Are you aware that these “apoc books” in the centuries before the 1500’s were considered dutero-canical and not at the same level as the other 66 books? It was not until Trent that they were elevated to full canon status.

I am aware that this is common protestant misinformation. However, this is also a topic for another thread. these books were in the canon used by Jesus and His Apostles, and that is why they were chosen.

 

[justasking4]

You have not answered my question about where you thought the scriptures came from. You say here they have their source in God. How did they get in front of you today? Did they drop out of the sky into your lap?

There ulitmate source is God. God used the church of the early centuries to discover or discern what the canon of the NT should be.

The source of the teaching about praying to the saints is the same source that gave you that Bible. If you disregard Sacred Tradition, then you need to disregard your Bible too!

On the contrary! If you do not accept the testimony of those men about the authenticity of the scripture, then you are only left with your OWN speculation!

Not so. The Scriptures derive their authority not from the church but from God. i do think that the catholic church did get the canon of the NT right. However, that does not mandate anyone to believe that just because they got this right that they are right in all areas at all times.

I suppose that God is able to work miracles by whatever avenue He desires!

I agree. However it is a different matter to know specifically when He does.

ed infallible Sacred Tradition. For me, the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

The Scriptures, which I regard as inspired and infallible, testify that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, therefore, I can confidently rely on the Church.

If you look at this verse its not really saying everything you claim here. 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
Paul is not saying that the church “is the pillar and foundation of the truth” but rather the “support” of it.

Jesus promised that He would send HIs spirit to guide the Church into all truth and I believe that He is able to keep his promises!

The context for this does not claim that this about the church but it was given to His disciples in whom the Spirit would guide. It makes no reference to any future promise to leaders in the church after the aposltes leave.

I marvel that you feel you have the authority to tell others what Christians should and should not do.

Its not any authority in me but what the scriptures teach. Your doing the same thing but instead of using the scriptures to support your position you rely on the catholic church.

Christ established His Church, so obviously, He seemed to think it was necessary. He made Himself present in the lives of others who have gone on before me, forming “a great cloud of witnesses” so He must have felt that was necessary. His sacred scriptures instruct all the saints to pray for one another “without ceasing” (which we cannot do in the flesh because we have to sleep, and do other things) so he must have thought intercession for one another was necessary.

It is true the scriptures do exhort christians to pray for one another but it does not ever teach or exhort us to pray to those who have died.

It is sad that you think all these things that Christ created are unnecessary, but I will respectfully agree to disagree with you. You have clarified a comment I hear often on EWTN, about Catholics having the “fullness of truth”, since you have shown so clearly how you have excised the Apostolic Teaching, and rejected it for yourself.

Actually i look at this issue and see a lot of speculation. Praying to those who have died was never taught by Jesus or His apostles. You don’t have an “Apostolic Teaching” if the apostles never taught it. This “fullness of the truth” claim that i see is alot of doctrine and practices that is not grounded in the scriptures but is the speculations of men. i think 2 Cor 11:3 applies here where Paul writes— But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Who cares if it is biblical–even though it is!

If God’s church says it is true then I guess you’re just going to call god a liar or call the Holy Spirit a liar for inspiring Maccabees to be written.

I don’t listen to people who call the holy spirit a liar!

And I also don’t countenance people who think that once saints get to heaven their ears are as limited as human ears!

Or that God wants them not to intercede of others–do you think God says 'Look–it’s time for you to quit loving now so everyone on earth will have a greater chance of going to Hell!

And for all you people who aren’t the anti-intelligence nominalist let’s band together and be happy in our own desolationess narrow mindedness that results in not being able to go to the bathroom because it isn’t in the scriptures just ask yourself this question:

Have you ever spoke to a relative or prayed for them after they have died?

Do you think such prayers were stupid?

Do you think God hated you for it?

If someone here on Earth was deaf would you strill pray for them or speak to them even though they couldn’t hear you?

Why did Jesus say “He who has ears to hear let him hear!”

Is the concept of being able to hear without ears too big for you to understand?

Can you hear a tune in your head even though the soundwaves aren’t there?

Are you going to tell me that the saints that are living because Jesus has told us so aren’t able to at least do in heaven what they have done on Earth?

And are you going to tell me that Christ’s church has the authority to change the day of the sabbath without scripture but when it teaches that the saints do hear us that it is a liar?

Ask yourself this: If you were Satan and wanted people to despair would you want them to believe that the saints could hear their prayers or would you want them to believe that no one who has died could hear their prayers?

The next time they say the apostle’s creed in your Protestant church will you have the self honesty to Not say that you believe in the communion of the saints?

The last time I checked real communion involved communication on a level surpassing what physical ears on earth could hear.

But hey! If you refuse to “Discern the Body of the lord” in the Eucharist --wouldn’t hearing beyond your own physical ears be too much to comprehend?

Jesus many times said “they have eyes and they do not see–they have ears and they do not hear”.

It was true of the Jews–it is true of the Protestants–but it will never be true to the saints who have had ears to hear Jesus’ Catholic Church!

 

[Dominic_Brother]

I have not read all the posts; my apologies. Nevertheless, I will say something.

Try meditating on the following scripture passages as it relates to Saints in Heavan/Purgatory.

MATTHEW 22:31-32
“But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
MARK 12:29-31
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
JOHN 15:14-15
"You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.”
1 JOHN 4:20-21
If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Jesus clearly reveals life after death. Saints are alive and by definition have God’s blessing. Not a Saint after death can only mean a soul in hell. It is not clear from these passages when the Soul re-unites with the Body. But it is clear to me that Saints are alive and ***Saints are your neighbours. ***

Therefore, if Saints are your neighbors, and you do not love your neighbour as yourself (especially loving those in Purgatory), then: (… must I say more? …)

 

[guanophore]

There ulitmate source is God. God used the church of the early centuries to discover or discern what the canon of the NT should be.

Well, at least we are in agreement about something! Now, by what authority or ability was the early church able to accomplish this?

Quote:
The source of the teaching about praying to the saints is the same source that gave you that Bible. If you disregard Sacred Tradition, then you need to disregard your Bible too!
justasking4;2456005:

Not so. You are assuming your church is the source of the Scriptures when they are not. The source of the Scriptures is God. He used the catholic church to discern the canon of the NT. The catholic church is not the source but an only instrument to bring the Scriptures to the church

It is not an assumption. This is part of the incarnational principle. There is no separation between Christ, and His Bride. He gave His HS to the Church, and it is that HS that guides the church into all truth. The Canon is one of those truths. The Communion of Saints is another.

Quote:
On the contrary! If you do not accept the testimony of those men about the authenticity of the scripture, then you are only left with your OWN speculation!

Not so. The Scriptures derive their authority not from the church but from God. i do think that the catholic church did get the canon of the NT right. However, that does not mandate anyone to believe that just because they got this right that they are right in all areas at all times.

God working through the Apostolic Authority, which He established prior to His ascension. If they got the canon right, and the Nicene creed right, and the person and work of Jesus right, how do you discern which teachings handed down from the Apostles they did not get right? there ARE no Catholic teachings that contradict the bible.

The Scriptures, which I regard as inspired and infallible, testify that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, therefore, I can confidently rely on the Church.
justasking4;2456005:

If you look at this verse its not really saying everything you claim here. 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Paul is not saying that the church “is the pillar and foundation of the truth” but rather the “support” of it.

However you say it, the truth is what it is held up by the Church. Since there was no NT at the time this was written, all the truth was present in Sacred Tradition. It was in the preaching of the Apostles, held by the Church, that gave birth to the written word. The scriptures reflect sufficiency of those teachings unto salvation, but they were never intended to be the full revelation of divine truth, which was given completely orally by Jesus to the Apostles. The Sacred Traditions, from which the scriptures were written, have been preserved faithfullly, just like the scripture, as the Apostles taught them. Among these Sacred Traditions are prayers to the saints.

Quote:
Jesus promised that He would send HIs spirit to guide the Church into all truth and I believe that He is able to keep his promises!

The context for this does not claim that this about the church but it was given to His disciples in whom the Spirit would guide. It makes no reference to any future promise to leaders in the church after the aposltes leave.

What is the church, if not the body of disciples?
Jesus said He would be with them until the end of the age. We are still here, so the end has not come yet!

 

[guanophore]

Quote:
I marvel that you feel you have the authority to tell others what Christians should and should not do.

Its not any authority in me but what the scriptures teach. Your doing the same thing but instead of using the scriptures to support your position you rely on the catholic church.

I don’t do the same thing. I am echoing the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, and I am saying that you have the freedom not to follow it if you choose not to do so. Don’t get me mixed up with Jerry-Jet and the hellfires!

Quote:
Christ established His Church, so obviously, He seemed to think it was necessary. He made Himself present in the lives of others who have gone on before me, forming “a great cloud of witnesses” so He must have felt that was necessary. His sacred scriptures instruct all the saints to pray for one another “without ceasing” (which we cannot do in the flesh because we have to sleep, and do other things) so he must have thought intercession for one another was necessary.

It is true the scriptures do exhort christians to pray for one another but it does not ever teach or exhort us to pray to those who have died.

No, I think not. This we get from the Sacred Tradition, which teaches us that the saints are alive in heaven, and offer our prayers to God.

Actually i look at this issue and see a lot of speculation. Praying to those who have died was never taught by Jesus or His apostles.

When you think about it, you will realize that heaven had not been opened yet when Jesus was teaching, and it was His Apostles who were martyred to whom the first intercessions were asked. St. Stephen the first, St. James shortly after, and Peter, Paul, and the rest. All pillars of the Church. All in heaven with the angels, worshipping before the throne of God, presenting our prayers. Righteous persons, whose prayers are powerful.

You don’t have an “Apostolic Teaching” if the apostles never taught it.

Actually, the Apostolic Teachings have been faithfully passed on by those ordained of the Apostles, and commissioned with the responsibility for teaching the truth of Jesus Christ.

This “fullness of the truth” claim that i see is alot of doctrine and practices that is not grounded in the scriptures but is the speculations of men. i think 2 Cor 11:3 applies here where Paul writes— But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

If you believe it is your job to judge Catholics, then I guess you are doing what you believe Christ has called you to do. You have taken over the job of the Holy Angels to separate the wheat from the tares.

I suggest you try the Orthodox Forum, since they have not been influenced by Roman ideas since the schism in 1050, yet teach all these same doctrines, handed on to them from the Apostles. Including prayers to the Saints!

 

[icxc_nika]

I suggest you try the Orthodox Forum, since they have not been influenced by Roman ideas since the schism in 1050, yet teach all these same doctrines, handed on to them from the Apostles. Including prayers to the Saints!

 

[icxc_nika]

There are a number of unproveable assumptions being made on this doctrine of praying to the saints who have died. Since the Scriptures never tell us that a dead saint can our prays here you must assume that they can. You also have to assume without any evidence or proof that a particular saint you pray to can hear you and do something about your prayer.
The only One the Scriptures exhort us to pray to is God. Only the ispired-inerrant Scriptures tells us this. To go beyond what is written in them is to speculate without any foundation.

Who’s speculating??

You deny the Spirit of Truth.

You deny the countless miracles witnessed by thousands of people.
Perhaps you should just as well deny Jesus healing the blind man or paralytic… as many of our Saints have done in the name of Christ.
BTW, if you really think you are on par with this “dead guys” than please provide a single protestant that has taken the leg of a corpse and grafted it to a leper and healed them.

Since Christ has risen and left us to be with his Father, we have had a lot of Christian history, and a lot of witnessing.

You apparently wish to just see the witnessing of select few that protest what Christ himself established on earth, and the miracles that they have performed… just as he foretold!

I often respected protestants for their vigor in proclaiming Christ… however it makes me recall a Christian author who once said that the protestants have created their own folk-lore religion, and refused to accept that they even worshiped the same Christ.

I get a clearer understanding as to why he said this after I read these posts. It is even more evident when I see people post things such as…

 

[icxc_nika]

It is right to ask other christians in this world to pray for each other. Scripture certainly confirms this. What it does not teach is asking the dead saints to help you.

I guess when people see the Saints come 'alive" and walk out from icons and heal every infirmity known to man, in the name of Christ, some people actually listen.

When people see icons of saints, and icons of the theotokos, weeping with myrh and ointment… Christians should take note.

When Christians venerate the saints, and construct temples in their name, and venerate their God fearing deeds, and the saints visit them in the a real life body, and perform countless God bearing deeds; Christians respond by thanking God for allowing them to see the tangible, real people that walked amongst us, people that we can actually see without the pain of seeing God himself.

I feel very bad that you have become the victim of the enemy, and murderer of mankind, by denying your own inheritance.
I shutter at the thought of going through life without the benefit of the Saints, let alone the Holy mysteries of God.

 

[icxc_nika]

Are you aware that these “apoc books” in the centuries before the 1500’s were considered dutero-canical and not at the same level as the other 66 books? It was not until Trent that they were elevated to full canon status.

The RCC has changed the official church biblical canon on several occasions, as is their right to do so.

Many of the Eastern church’s never revised the biblical canon, or otherwise defined one officially… Guess what they all have in common… The maccebees that you are denying.

 

[icxc_nika]

Hi, how are you? When you say “saints” are you talking about “all of God’s people” … or just the Catholic saints?

The reason I ask is because it seems that Catholics are under the impression that only Catholic saints can go to heaven. But this is not correct. When the NT and OT speak of “saints” the exact definition in the Greek and Hebrew is … “God’s people”.

And because God doesn’t play the favorites game, there are is no “special person” that He prefers over another. So which do you believe … just wondering.

blessings skelly-

I see you have not read and/or taken my trivia question from the earlier posts.

Please site for me where you get this fanciful notion that the the word saint is translated as “god’s people”.

Find me the OT and the NT texts that you are referencing so I can check the greek on it for you… unless you are siting a mistranslation… i can assure you that you have no idea of what you speak of when you attempt to define saints as “god’s people”.

Thanks for your time.

 

[EJM]

catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02387.htm

How is the above prayer, particularly the highlighted portions, simply a request for intercession. Is it not asking the saint to actually do things, not to just ask God to due them for the supplicant?

Hey SyCarl,

If any follower of Jesus can help somebody, prayer must be present. This should just go without saying. If anyone comes to me with ANY type of problem, no matter what else I should do, prayer needs to exist. Bringing the matter to God 100% must be present.

One hope all disciples of Christ should have is that if someone asks them for help, it is assumed that prayer/converstaion with the Lord will be part of our help.

So, if someone asks me to ‘take care of their family’, they should know that prayer would be part of all my help, even if they don’t specifically ask me to pray for them.

I think this answers your concern.

Peace

 

[skelly123]

Hi Maria … lovely name by the way. Yes, this is correct. Those in heaven and those on earth will never be separated because we are all the Body of Christ.

But just because we can’t be separated, doesn’t give us permission to “pray” to people gone on to heaven.

Again, Jesus said we are to pray only “to the Father” and onlly “In His Name”.

Miriam and the “saints” cannot give ACCESS to God because they did not EARN this right on the cross. So here are the TRUE instructions to prayer …

1st Tim 2:5: For there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have ACCESS by one Spirit to the Father.

John 14:14: Ask anything in MY NAME and I will do it.

I wish you a Proverbs 10:22 day.

Selma Kelly.

 

[skelly123]

Yeah, we know FULLY WELL where the CHRISTIAN BIBLE comes from … and it ain’t the Catholic Church … okay?

The Catholic Bible comes from the Latin Vulgate (which means “vulgar”).

Because of all the OUTRAGEOUS alterations found in the Vulgate and Catholic Bible, wars and struggles errupted ALL OVER EUROPE.

The Cathollic Church had gotten their hands on the original Greek Texts back in the 2nd century and … with no one’s permission whatsoever … had HIDDEN the words of Christ and the Apostles for ONE THOUSAND YEARS.

Then, in the advent of the printing press, CHRISTIAN men such as Wycliffe / Tyndale / Luther / Rogers / Coverdale and Gutenberg, printed the Words of Christ and showed them to commoners for the FIRST TIME from 1380 to 1560.

But not without bloodshed. Historians KNOW FOR A FACT that the Catholic Church tortured and murdered over 1 million people … for daring to QUESTION some of the Catholic teachings such as:

1. Paying Indulgences “to get into heaven”.
2. Not being allowed to look at the scriptures.
3. Limbus Infantium.
4. Purgatory
5. Flagellation
6. Poverty as a “gift” and disease as a “blessing”
7. Praying to someone other than God and Christ.

The reason for the outcry against the Vatican is because these teachings are not found ANYWHERE in the words of Christ, and gross misinterpretations were also discovered.

For instance, the Vatican purported that 1st Corinthians 3:9-15 was “proof” on Purgatory. But if you read this passage, the Apostle Paul is CLEARLY talking about the Work in the Ministry and how difficult it can get sometimes.

After that, all heck broke loose and the world broke free of Catholic tyranny forever. (No doubt they would’ve stuck an apple in my mouth and BBQ’d me.)

Okay, so which part of history do we “protestants” not know?

Selma Kelly
Orange County, Cal.

Because most Protestants don’t even realize where their bibles came from. They don’t know they were written by Catholics, or preserved by the Catholic Church, and they don’t know that Reformers took books out. They think that we “added” books! So, you are right, they may reject the truth anyway,but they have a right to know what it is first.

 

[skelly123]

Okay, good point of view. However, it doesn’t match the Words of Christ and the Apostles. Let’s see what THEY said about it:

1st Tim 2:5: For there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have ACCESS by one Spirit to the Father.

John 14:14: Ask anything in MY NAME and I will do it.

These are just 3 of 100 instructions in the NT concerning how we should play and to whom. And nowhere is it written that we are allowed to pray to the deceased or Miriam … for the simple reason they did not EARN that right on the cross.

Hey SyCarl,

If any follower of Jesus can help somebody, prayer must be present. This should just go without saying. If anyone comes to me with ANY type of problem, no matter what else I should do, prayer needs to exist. Bringing the matter to God 100% must be present.

One hope all disciples of Christ should have is that if someone asks them for help, it is assumed that prayer/converstaion with the Lord will be part of our help.

So, if someone asks me to ‘take care of their family’, they should know that prayer would be part of all my help, even if they don’t specifically ask me to pray for them.

I think this answers your concern.

Peace