The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[guanophore]

What traditions were these?

There were many, but the one most salient to this thread is praying to the Saints.

The order of the liturgy is another, and how the Sabbath was changed from Sat. to Sunday.

Which books belong in the NT, the Assumption of the Blessed mother… maybe we should start a new thread?

 

[icxc_nika]

Doesn’t that actually defend both the Catholic and Orthodox positions?

Of course it does!! *

*Couple issues however are always debated

 

[icxc_nika]

What traditions were these?

Too many to count.

Live the life and they will all become rather obvious with time and prayer.

 

[avflf]

There were many, but the one most salient to this thread is praying to the Saints.

The order of the liturgy is another, and how the Sabbath was changed from Sat. to Sunday.

Which books belong in the NT, the Assumption of the Blessed mother… maybe we should start a new thread?

Two very innovative ideas. Wonder who thought of them first.

 

[Man]

Two very innovative ideas. Wonder who thought of them first.

I think the ancient Jews…

 

[guanophore]

Two very innovative ideas. Wonder who thought of them first.

The Holy Spirit, of course!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Actually, MariaG when Paul asked for prayer for himself and his ministry he meant that they should pray to God thru Christ. Not to pray to Mary or to Tom, **** and Harry. There is a slight difference there.

Catholics pray to God. Only God.

 

[avflf]

I think the ancient Jews…

Ancient as ancient or just old?

 

[avflf]

The Holy Spirit, of course!

Not according to Man’s post. He said it was some old Jews

 

[Man]

Not according to Man’s post. He said it was some old Jews

The custom of pray for the dead and so forth follow from Jewish custom, that is their understanding of the afterlife. Although, there are still various Jewish views on the afterlife, this one seems to follow most closely to what Jesus held.

 

[avflf]

avflf,

Do you believe that “saints” go to Heaven when they die?

OR

Do that they rest in the grave until the Jesus comes again?

To the first question Paul thought so (Php 1:21) “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” so that would be a Yes

The second question gets a …Yes also (Psa 115:17) “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

See how accomodating.the Scriptures can be.

 

[Man]

To the first question Paul thought so (Php 1:21) “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” so that would be a Yes

The second question gets a …Yes also (Psa 115:17) “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

See how accomodating.the Scriptures can be.

So, you appear to be what is “called” a pre-millennialist. The Catholic Church holds that the Communion of saints is now in Heaven, consequently, when we die, we go to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Now, let us not slide down a discussion on purgatory, but rather on whether or not we are judged when we die…

Are we judged at our deaths?

If you intend to evade refer to the following:
(Don’t pull some “time” mojo on me… It can be very time consuming to illustrate properly with definitive language that which you can clearly see I am asking… that is, the question is asked from our perspective)

 

[avflf]

The custom of pray for the dead and so forth follow from Jewish custom, that is their understanding of the afterlife. Although, there are still various Jewish views on the afterlife, this one seems to follow most closely to what Jesus held.

Don’t let a Rabbi hear you say that.

 

[Man]

Don’t let a Rabbi hear you say that.

Was it the Pharisees or the Sadducees that believed in the resurrection? I can’t remember off the top of my head. They still disagree to this day. AND Rabbis have heard me say it.

 

[avflf]

So, you appear to be what is “called” a pre-millennialist. The Catholic Church holds that the Communion of saints is now in Heaven, consequently, when we die, we go to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Now, let us not slide down a discussion on purgatory, but rather on whether or not we are judged when we die…

**Are we judged at our deaths? **

If you intend to evade refer to the following:
(Don’t pull some “time” mojo on me… It can be very time consuming to illustrate properly with definitive language that which you can clearly see I am asking… that is, the question is asked from our perspective)

The answer is Yes … and No
For ‘Yes’ one can refer to the writer of Hebrews (Heb 9:27) “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but **after **this the judgment:” where the Greek word meta (after) denotes accompaniment, meaning close together.

For ‘No’ see (Rev 20:12-13) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were **judged **every man according to their works.
.(Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Also note that people are judged by their “works” in this account. Paul would have had a fit if he were still alive at the time Revelation got into print.

 

[Man]

The answer is Yes … and No
For ‘Yes’ one can refer to the writer of Hebrews (Heb 9:27) “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but **after **this the judgment:” where the Greek word meta (after) denotes accompaniment, meaning close together.

For ‘No’ see (Rev 20:12-13) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were **judged **every man according to their works.
.(Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Also note that people are judged by their “works” in this account. Paul would have had a fit if he were still alive at the time Revelation got into print.

Catholics, and most Christians, are typically Amillennialists.

"Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints. "

catholic.com/library/rapture.asp

And yes, I know, a dead body doesn’t know anything, but a resurrected person (in Heaven) might…

 

[avflf]

Was it the Pharisees or the Sadducees that believed in the resurrection? I can’t remember off the top of my head. They still disagree to this day. AND Rabbis have heard me say it.

The Pharisees believed in the resurrection. The easiest way to remember is that the Sad…ducees did not; that’s why they were sad.

 

[Man]

…
Also note that people are judged by their “works” in this account. Paul would have had a fit if he were still alive at the time Revelation got into print.

The philosophy goes that one will necessarily partake in good works if they are indeed a Christian, but, we also admit that we don’t know that much about free will (you’ll know them by their fruit… where were you when I was hungry… etc.)

So, that being said, and keeping that in mind, our discussion of pre-millennialist philosophy.

Why is it that you prefer the interpretation you do, over the one I have given you?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

To the first question Paul thought so (Php 1:21) “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” so that would be a Yes

The second question gets a …Yes also (Psa 115:17) “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

See how accomodating.the Scriptures can be.

Are the Saints dead? See how confusing Scriptures can be without an Infallible Interpreter?

 

[avflf]

Are the Saints dead? See how confusing Scriptures can be without an Infallible Interpreter?

And who might that be? The Pope?