The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[MariaG]

I know the doctrine of purgatory and there are major major problems with it.
.

Here are the doctrines of Purgatory in a new thread here. Let’s discuss this more.

 

[MariaG]

There is no such thing today as the “oral teachings of the apostles”. The only record we have of the apostles is the Scriptures. it may have been true at one time but no today. This is why “oral traditions” carry no weight in this discussion of praying to the saints.

Yet scripture says otherwise. Hold fast to what you have been told by word or by letter. Scripture makes no distinction between holding to the oral or the written. You have made a distinction and by doing so, disregard the plain written words of scripture you hold so high.

And I can understand wishing to ignore any source other than scripture when you have not other source for your interpretation of it.

What other authority do you know that is inspired-inerrant? It surely not your church leaders who are composed of fallen men.

Surely not. Men ARE fallen creatures. But the inspired and inerrant word tells us that those very same fallen men are have the authority to settle disputes in the Church and to interpret scripture that can be hard to understand without proper teachers.

The Holy Spirit will lead and guide His Church. We trust in the Lord that He will keep the words of His inerrant scripture true, otherwise the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth is just a lie. Then what else is a lie?

But again, we digress.

 

[savedsinner]

1.)Would you happen to have the verse for this? It’s certainly not Hebrews 12:1. (that the saints are concerned for us)

2.)Protestants don’t depend on “Oral Traditions” but the Scriptures.

3.)There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. For one, how do you know that the person who is telling you to pray to a saint knows that specific saint can hear you? This is impossible to know since there is no way to know with any certainty that so and so is in any position to hear and do something about your prayers. No one knows the the state of a dead person.

4.)Exactly. This is speculation. This is what happens when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures do give us the confidence that we can pray directly to Christ because He alone intercedes for us. Only He can hear our prayers and has the power and authority to answer them. With this great promise there is no need to pray to any saint, Mary or angel. Christ is all you need.

1.) Luke 16:19-31

2.) That is exactly what the Church fathers said about the heretics.

3.) We can know that they have heard us because in some instances there are miracles attributed to the intercessions of the Saints.

4.) The Saints are not the one answering our prayers, they are interceding to Christ. Christ is the one who will answer our prayers. With your reasoning, why should I ask another Christian to pray for me, when Christ is all I need?

 

[MariaG]

Your right your comments are off thrread. Look at those passages in scripture that your church uses to justify praying to saints in context and you will see they don’t support this idea of imploring help from them.

If by imploring help from them you mean imploring them to add their prayers to mine, you are quite wrong.

Somehow, unfortunately, I feel you still think asking saints for their prayers is the same as praying to God, something strictly forbidden by the Catholic Church as per scripture.

 

[savedsinner]

What other authority do you know that is inspired-inerrant? It surely not your church leaders who are composed of fallen men.

Wow, what a coincidence, the authors of the New Testament were also fallen men.

 

[MariaG]

Wow, what a coincidence, the authors of the New Testament were also fallen men.

Isn’t funny how we can trust God that scripture can be written by fallen men but you just can’t trust those same fallen men with teaching it? Except of course when you get to Luther. He got it right. Until Calvin corrected him, and the anabaptists corrected them all

 

[epostle]

epostle; First you are assuming the scriptures can teach without a teacher. This is impossible and illogical, as scripture does not teach thousands of conflicting interpretations. Neither does the Holy Spirit

.

I agree. however the scriptures do teach that false teachers will come into the church and decieve many.

Yes, the successors of the Apostles were constantly refuting heresy. Thats how you have come to accept the doctrine of the Trinity, because the bible doesn’t expicitly state that each of the Divine Persons of the Trinity equally share the same divine substance, so you can’t be an Arian. Second, talking about false teachers has nothing to do with with the fact that only qualified teachers can interpret the scriptures. Only the ordained can do this, and nowhere in the bible is this the responsibility of individual believers. Therefore that doctrine “teaching is responsibility of individual believers” is from false teachers who have no bishops. You are off topic with a non-sequitur argument:
there are teachers
there are false teachers
therefore the successors to the apostles are false teachers.

You are suggesting the bishops of Catholic Church, who can prove succession biblically and historically, are false teachers. Some of them, yes, and we know know who they were/are. Arius, a bishop, used the bible apart from the teaching authority of the Church, and so did every heretic of the patristic period.

Since your church claims to be the only church with the authority to interpret the scriptures, what do they offical say about this passage?

 

[epostle]

There is nothing like the scriptures. Only they are inspried-inerrant and not doctrines. It is by the scriptures that we grow in respect to salvation. See I Peter 2:2.

I don’t dispute that. I Peter 2:2 does not support this doctrine of yours that says only doctrines explicitly found in the bible are trustworthy, and neither does one single verse of scripture.

I Peter 2:2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation;

It does not say
I Peter 2:2 Like newborn babes, long for scriptures, that by it you may grow up to salvation;

I am not refering to salvation, I am refering to the Bible as being the only source of doctrines which is a doctrine you rigidly adhere to that is not found in the Bible. We Catholics follow the Bible as the primary source for doctrine, but not the only source. I’m sorry, but the Bible does not support this doctrine of yours…

If there is any dishonesty its on those who misuse the scriptures to support doctrines that the scriptures don’t

:banghead:

This all sounds great but has no basis in scripture. For one you have no way to know if a specific dead person you may pray to can hear your prayers.

You can’t assume to know Catholic teaching by following old boring arguments from anticatholic books and web sites. You have to study Catholicism with an open mind and a humble heart from the right source: the Church herself, and from real people, not a monitor. Sister, The Kingdom of God has a basis in scripture. The unity of the family of God in heaven with the family of God on earth has a basis in scripture. The twelve thrones are both on earth and in heaven and that is based on scripture. Separating the Kingdom of God is the same doctrine you use to separate the Communion of Saints and THAT has NO basis in scripture .

You don’t know, nor does your church know if that person is in purgatory or hell. The Only one we are commanded to pray to is God.

The realization that a person is in heaven is not done over the phone, and yes, the same Church that compiled the Holy Books of the Bible has the same authority to declare an exemplorary Christian a saint. Their holiness, evidenced by miracles after their death, and often during their lives, shows they are interceeding, and the Church has every right to say what is good fruit and what is not. Your definition of church is similar to your definition of the Kingdom of God and the Communion of Saints. I wish you could see the bond the Church on earth has with heaven. Jesus made it very clear in Matthew 19:28-30 and in Acts 9:5. I’m sorry you have separated the Kingdom of God in heaven from earth. I hope your reformed concept of dividing heaven from earth is reformable because it is bad for your spiritual health, and makes you blind to understanding what has been practiced for 2000 years by 80% of Christians on the planet.

prayer = worship is another recent doctrine that developed through a gradual change in meaning of the words. Catholics worship ONLY God, and we pray for one another like the bible tells us to. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar. Saints in heaven are more perfected humans, not made less human.

I have two suggestions.

1. anti-catholics have been refuted a million times and most of us know their agenda, so it’s a bad place to get your information.
2. Be yourself. Present questions you have based on Catholic resources. The earth could not contain all the books on everything that Jesus did, and we have never kept it a secret. It’s called Apostolic Teaching, and the Bible flows from that wellspring complimented by Oral Teaching. They compliment, they cannot contradict.
   The Bible tells us PART of the whole of Christian faith, because the Church produced the bible, the bible did not produce the Church. That is another tradition of men.

If you are sincere, sign up for free catechism classes, you don’t have to commit to anything and no one should bug you to be a Catholic. People go there because they want to learn, not argue.

 

[Gill79]

Ah, so it doens’t! Doesn’t this defeat Sola Scriptura!
Why would you believe in Trinity if the word Trinity is not in the Bible?

bad agrument.
Trinity is a newer word for old english word Godhead in Bible

 

[MariaG]

water;2454318:

Ah, so it doens’t! Doesn’t this defeat Sola Scriptura!
Why would you believe in Trinity if the word Trinity is not in the Bible?

bad agrument.
Trinity is a newer word for old english word Godhead in Bible

Um… the bible was not originally written in old english.

 

[Gill79]

Im intrested tp apart from protestants catholics differance

just as it is in Christ time. not now not centuies go by as if Jesus is here like in bible as it tell sences what with n testment

do catholics think prostestants cant go heaven? if they do why?

what the real object as far I know as Jesus so often said

ask in my name, etc so that what they do (basic)

believe of three
belive Jesus as God (basic)

born of a virgin, that Jesus(basic)

jesus only way to heaven (basic)

fellowship with other christians(basic)

 

[MariaG]

Im intrested tp apart from protestants catholics differance

just as it is in Christ time. not now not centuies go by as if Jesus is here like in bible as it tell sences what with n testment

do catholics think prostestants cant go heaven? if they do why?

what the real object as far I know as Jesus so often said

ask in my name, etc so that what they do (basic)

believe of three
belive Jesus as God (basic)

born of a virgin, that Jesus(basic)

jesus only way to heaven (basic)

fellowship with other christians(basic)

You really need to start a new thread for your questions, multiple threads if the questions are too divergent .

But I’ll help you out, with one that is easy to answer. No. Catholic do not think that Protestants CANT go to heaven.

Protestant may go to heaven.

God bless,
Maria

 

[Gill79]

Gill79;2531635:

Um… the bible was not originally written in old english.

of course. it was texts from greek amaric but i said Godhead written in old ENGLISH
sorry just so it understood there is a Godhead refering newer word. just assumption there is A word refering meaning of Godhead of it foreign orgin?

 

[Gill79]

as we all got own prejuries what we view right to other or wrong to other God overlook these simple facts the basics is what truly matter.

protestants v catholcis

(my words as i remmebered it!)

12 disciples was sent out by Jesus, so story goes they working healing people in Jesus name, arise walk in name of jesus of narzbeth etc. they came back to jesus saying people healed in your name etc but there a man healing people in your name. so we stopped him. Jesus said no as long he do in my name dont stop him.

like prostesants catholics they view each other strange
like 12 disciples just cos they dont know the man at all, object to him
like 12 disciples
they come from both sides object to each other cos faiths is strange to other forgot what matter as long u do in name of jesus realized him.
i consider it very importance understood in prayer in name of Jesus and recongize him as Lord. I had my disagree on some catholics issues. and frankly just the impressions it give out in an instant, ever so, i know God use them as well any any INDIVIDUAL in christianity as long in name of Christ and the basic stuff.

judge person to person so God do same in both there those not saved there those that are in prostestants and catholics

 

[whatevergirl]

We know of certain persons who are there, because God has revealed that to us. However, you are right, about those of whom it is not revealed, we do not know.

So true! We don’t pray to them…we ask them to pray for us.

 

[MariaG]

MariaG;2531681:

of course. it was texts from greek amaric but i said Godhead written in old ENGLISH
sorry just so it understood there is a Godhead refering newer word. just assumption there is A word refering meaning of Godhead of it foreign orgin?

There had to be some word or another, however, it is clear from the writings of the Early Church that not all clearly “saw” the Trinity or Godhead if you will and the doctrine had to be defined.

However, it is a good question that maybe you should start a thread on

 

[justasking4]

epostle;2525542]I don’t dispute that. I Peter 2:2 does not support this doctrine of yours that says only doctrines explicitly found in the bible are trustworthy, and neither does one single verse of scripture.

If the inspired scriptures are not your foundation for doctrine, then you must trust in men’s ideas. Take what this topic is about. There is not one reference in the scriptures of someone being exhorted or taught to pray to a dead saint.

I Peter 2:2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation;

It does not say
I Peter 2:2 Like newborn babes, long for scriptures, that by it you may grow up to salvation;

I am not refering to salvation, I am refering to the Bible as being the only source of doctrines which is a doctrine you rigidly adhere to that is not found in the Bible. We Catholics follow the Bible as the primary source for doctrine, but not the only source. I’m sorry, but the Bible does not support this doctrine of yours…

When you reject the Scriptures as the only foundation for doctine and practice, you then must rely on men’ speculations. Look at the various sources for many of its doctrines and you will that these are but the imaginations of men.

:banghead:

You can’t assume to know Catholic teaching by following old boring arguments from anticatholic books and web sites. You have to study Catholicism with an open mind and a humble heart from the right source: the Church herself, and from real people, not a monitor. Sister, The Kingdom of God has a basis in scripture. The unity of the family of God in heaven with the family of God on earth has a basis in scripture. The twelve thrones are both on earth and in heaven and that is based on scripture. Separating the Kingdom of God is the same doctrine you use to separate the Communion of Saints and THAT has NO basis in scripture .

The realization that a person is in heaven is not done over the phone, and yes, the same Church that compiled the Holy Books of the Bible has the same authority to declare an exemplorary Christian a saint. Their holiness, evidenced by miracles after their death, and often during their lives, shows they are interceeding, and the Church has every right to say what is good fruit and what is not. Your definition of church is similar to your definition of the Kingdom of God and the Communion of Saints. I wish you could see the bond the Church on earth has with heaven. Jesus made it very clear in Matthew 19:28-30 and in Acts 9:5. I’m sorry you have separated the Kingdom of God in heaven from earth. I hope your reformed concept of dividing heaven from earth is reformable because it is bad for your spiritual health, and makes you blind to understanding what has been practiced for 2000 years by 80% of Christians on the planet.

prayer = worship is another recent doctrine that developed through a gradual change in meaning of the words. Catholics worship ONLY God, and we pray for one another like the bible tells us to. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar. Saints in heaven are more perfected humans, not made less human.

How do you or your church knows who is in heaven and who is not?
What do you know of the after life? How do you know that can hear your prayer and do something about it? How would you know if they are in purgatory or not?

I have two suggestions.

1. anti-catholics have been refuted a million times and most of us know their agenda, so it’s a bad place to get your information.

1. Be yourself. Present questions you have based on Catholic resources. The earth could not contain all the books on everything that Jesus did, and we have never kept it a secret. It’s called Apostolic Teaching, and the Bible flows from that wellspring complimented by Oral Teaching. They compliment, they cannot contradict.
   The Bible tells us PART of the whole of Christian faith, because the Church produced the bible, the bible did not produce the Church. That is another tradition of men.

If you are sincere, sign up for free catechism classes, you don’t have to commit to anything and no one should bug you to be a Catholic. People go there because they want to learn, not argue.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2524961]Yet scripture says otherwise. Hold fast to what you have been told by word or by letter. Scripture makes no distinction between holding to the oral or the written. You have made a distinction and by doing so, disregard the plain written words of scripture you hold so high.

What am asking you to do is to back up this “oral tradition” that the aposltes had that is not in the scripture. I know the scriptures speak of Paul having a tradition that he exhorted the Thessalonians to hand on. My question for you is: what exactly was it?

And I can understand wishing to ignore any source other than scripture when you have not other source for your interpretation of it.

Working within the scriptures is a safeguard from error. While catholics must contend with all kinds of teachings and practices not found in them which leaves them open to false teachers.

Surely not. Men ARE fallen creatures. But the inspired and inerrant word tells us that those very same fallen men are have the authority to settle disputes in the Church and to interpret scripture that can be hard to understand without proper teachers.

I agree. However, does that mean they always are correct in what they teach?

The Holy Spirit will lead and guide His Church. We trust in the Lord that He will keep the words of His inerrant scripture true, otherwise the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth is just a lie. Then what else is a lie?

But again, we digress.

 

[justasking4]

savedsinner;2524964]1.) Luke 16:19-31

What does this have to do with praying to the saints?

2.) That is exactly what the Church fathers said about the heretics.

3.) We can know that they have heard us because in some instances there are miracles attributed to the intercessions of the Saints.

How do you know that they are not being decieved? Anytime a person involves in something like this, open themeselves up to deceptions.
What would you say to a non catholic that prayed to a dead non catholic and has a prayer answered. Would you believe that a non catholic can help another non catholic?

4.) The Saints are not the one answering our prayers, they are interceding to Christ. Christ is the one who will answer our prayers.

If what you are saying is true why then don’t the scriptures ever teach this?

With your reasoning, why should I ask another Christian to pray for me, when Christ is all I need?

Scriptures teach that other believers in this world to pray for each other. That’s biblical. Its not to pray to the dead.

 

[justasking4]

If by imploring help from them you mean imploring them to add their prayers to mine, you are quite wrong.

Somehow, unfortunately, I feel you still think asking saints for their prayers is the same as praying to God, something strictly forbidden by the Catholic Church as per scripture.

What is forbidden is any communication with the dead.