The secret letters of Pope John Paul II - BBC

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Lily_Bernans said:
Money, of course, which if it’s true, **is a betrayal of JP’s lifelong loving friendship with her. **

I’ll not condemn her yet. The report I read did not list a source, so I cannot take it completely seriously. However, even if she gave them away for nothing, I think it’s still a betrayal. Even though they weren’t lovers, I’m sure JP wrote the letters for her eyes only. Sure, others knew about the friendship. Others were present during the ski trips and the camping trips, and others were invited to the Vatican, but I honestly don’t think JP intended the world to read the letters he wrote to a dear friend, innocent though the friendship was.

While the report does not claim the late pontiff broke his vow of celibacy with Polish-born philosopher Anna-Teresa Tymieniecka, it does say that the tone of some of his letters to her point to intense feelings between them.

That reporter should learn the difference between celibacy and chastity. I’m pretty sure the late pontiff was not married! And I would highly doubt that he broke his promise, not vow, but promise, of chastity. If you’ve taught Theology of the Body like I have, you pretty much know this pontiff never engaged in anything unseemly, even before he entered the seminary. Theology of the Body is a good course, but there are two or three things in it that show quite clearly that the writer was inexperienced in “the ways of the flesh.” I don’t know how else to say it and keep it as nice as possible. I’m on JP’s side here. I was just surprised, though why, I don’t know. I have friends who are priests myself. Just friends.
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Yes, though I’m sure there was nothing to hide, “the betrayal of a lifelong loving friendship” by revealing personal letters is how I thought of it.

But I have no wish to speculate on her reason for doing so.
 
rose_kelly said:
Yes, though I’m sure there was nothing to hide, “the betrayal of a lifelong loving friendship” by revealing personal letters is how I thought of it.

But I have no wish to speculate on her reason for doing so.
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I admit to being surprised, only at first, that he had the time to write so many letters, but I feel it was totally innocent, just like minds exchanging ideas, and probably a love for Poland, which they both no doubt missed.

Like you, I have no wish to go any further.
 
Brendan_64 said:
The whole thing is an attempt to smear this great pope and saint with innuendo. There is no evidence of anything morally wrong or illicit, yet that doesn’t stop people from wanting to smear St Pope John Paul.

The media do not like the Catholic Church. They do not like the Church’s teachings on sexuality and they see it as a given that the Church needs to liberalise its teachings. Who better to have a pop at than the man who was foremost in declaring the Church’s teachings on sexuality to the world?

This article sums up the irrelevance of the so-called revelations made by the programme.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/02/16/the-secret-letters-of-pope-john-paul-ii-a-silly-programme-that-revealed-no-secrets/#.VsLuaPwHVq0.facebook
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Yes, it does. Thank you for the link, Brendan.
 
If you don’t yet know, the BBC is one of the biggest propaganda networks in the world.

That said, when I first heard of this, I thought of Francis de Sales and Madame de Chantal.
Her commitment to God impressed Saint Francis de Sales, the bishop who became her director and best friend. Their friendship started before they even met, for they saw each other in dreams, and continued in letters throughout their lives.
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catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=60
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St. Francis de Sales’s eulogy of her characterizes her life at Bourbilly and everywhere else: “In Madame de Chantal I have found the perfect woman, whom Solomon had difficulty in finding in Jerusalem”.
…
During Lent, 1604, she visited her father at Dijon, where St. Francis de Sales was preaching at the Sainte Chapelle. She recognized in him the mysterious director who had been shown her, and placed herself under his guidance. Then began an admirable correspondence between the two saints. Unfortunately, the greater number of letters are no longer in existence, as she destroyed them after the death of the holy bishop.
…
newadvent.org/cathen/08282c.htm
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That people would read into this kind of relationships shouldn’t surprise anyone, really. Just think of how some people interpret Jesus’ love for John. 😃
 
“The World” cannot tell the difference between friendship, affection, and sex.

The World believes it is not possible to be chaste and intimate at the same time.
The World has a perverse view of human nature that reduces human beings to the lowest possible motives. The more heroic the human nature, the more it must be torn down b y The World.
The World cannot tolerate virtue, it must tear it down out of envy, just as it tore down Christ.

As with all the best lies The World takes some grain of truth and distorts it with speculation, innuendo, prejudice, etc…The World simply cannot accept goodness for it’s own sake. And of course, some Catholics will lead the charge in idle speculation.

How can it be a surprise that a man with heroic virtue would simply be a good friend to others? DUH.
 
clem456 said:
“The World” cannot tell the difference between friendship, affection, and sex.

The World believes it is not possible to be chaste and intimate at the same time.
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Absolutely right. As far as ‘liberal’ society today is concerned, affection=sex, love=sex, intimacy=sex, relationship=sex. A completely twisted view.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
I would expect him to fall in love. He was a human being. However, priests are always told that if they fall in love with someone, the “right” thing to do is absent themselves from the woman’s presence, don’t have contact with her, cut her out of their life, etc.

I’m not surprised he fell in love with someone like-minded. I’ve always wondered if he was ever in love prior to joining the priesthood. What bothers me is that he didn’t cut off the relationship but seemed to nurture it. It’s a huge disappointment to me. There can’t be two sets of rules, one for him and one for other priests.

I am pretty sure he never broke his promise of chastity because of something he wrote in Theology of the Body. It’s clear he never had a sexual relationship, even before he was a priest. It kind of makes me smile when I read it because anyone who’s had a physically intimate relationship, even one, will know this man did not.

But to go camping with her? What would we say if we found out our pastor had been on a camping trip with a woman he loved? I don’t think anything good.

I will try to come to terms with it.
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Your words resonate with me. I was talking with my dh about it last night. He said a lot of the things I’ve already heard here, and I said “she was married” and he stopped. Then I asked “if he was the married one, what would we now be saying/thinking about him?”.

I guess we will hear a lot about how he was human, yes he was. But we are to avoid the occasion of sin, if the letters/replies were just him being polite to her (he only mentions a summer visit to her and her husband’s home) as I read one of his friends have suggested in the news perhaps he could have for a moment realised she was married and obviously in love with him, why perpetuate it? I’m not sure I want to force myself to come to terms with something I think is this wrong.
 
I guess my question is how would you feel about the relationship if it was your spouse? If you considered it a betrayal, then you might understand how others find this to be one. I would love to hear some convincing to the contrary but I’m afraid it’s my own cognitive dissonance talking?!
 
Happywife said:
Your words resonate with me. I was talking with my dh about it last night. He said a lot of the things I’ve already heard here, and I said “she was married” and he stopped. Then I asked “if he was the married one, what would we now be saying/thinking about him?”.

I guess we will hear a lot about how he was human, yes he was. But we are to avoid the occasion of sin, if the letters/replies were just him being polite to her (he only mentions a summer visit to her and her husband’s home) as I read one of his friends have suggested in the news perhaps he could have for a moment realised she was married and obviously in love with him, why perpetuate it? I’m not sure I want to force myself to come to terms with something I think is this wrong.
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Thank you! I know. I love him. I revere him. I think he was very holy and kind. I believe he is a saint.

However, our priests are told to absent themselves from any woman who is “in love” with them. Now, I realize the pope can’t absent himself from a member of his flock, but it seems, and I stress seems, that he did not discourage her love for him, which I think he should have done. As pope he needed to set an example for all the other priests of the world who find themselves in that position. I am not married, but I can imagine how scandalous my parish would think it if I were to announce I was going on a camping trip with the pastor, even if it was a group camping trip. That sort of thing just isn’t done in my diocese. I know one priest who learned a woman was in love with him. He asked for and received permission from the bishop to become a military chaplain, and he went to Germany, an ocean away. He did not write the woman, either.

Like you, I have to ask myself: Why perpetuate it? I’ll not stop loving JP II, and I do think he was holy, but I also think this was unwise. I’m not judging him, I don’t have all the facts and can’t judge anyway, but it just sits wrong with me.

I’m glad someone understands! 🙂 Thank you, and your dh, for having the courage to express your opinion.
 
Happywife said:
I guess my question is how would you feel about the relationship if it was your spouse? If you considered it a betrayal, then you might understand how others find this to be one. I would love to hear some convincing to the contrary but I’m afraid it’s my own cognitive dissonance talking?!
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Wow! I just noticed you have 13 children! Kudos to you! What a big, wonderful, happy family you must be! 👍
 
My two cents: Did St. John Paul II make an error in judgment in contining this friendship with a married woman? Perhaps. If so, that’s wonderful because if such a great saint could make an error in judgment maybe, just maybe, there’s some hope for me. Only Jesus never stumbled or fell. Saints show us that even when we fall we can still get up and reach the kingdom, with God’s help.

As far as this relationship being a bad example for priests, if a priest can’t distinguish this from his own situation perhaps he should rethink his vocation.
 
clem456 said:
As a Catholic I take offense at this question. Fortunately I gave up swearing for lent.

Do we “make” reality? Do we make a person’s reputation? Do we make a person’s interior spiritual life?

The problem is, people will “make” something out of this that it is not, through idle speculation and wicked gossip.

The answer to your question is we make nothing out of it. God made JP2 who he is and that is good enough for me.
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👍
 
billsannie said:
My two cents: Did St. John Paul II make an error in judgment in contining this friendship with a married woman? Perhaps. If so, that’s wonderful because if such a great saint could make an error in judgment maybe, just maybe, there’s some hope for me. Only Jesus never stumbled or fell. Saints show us that even when we fall we can still get up and reach the kingdom, with God’s help.

As far as this relationship being a bad example for priests, if a priest can’t distinguish this from his own situation perhaps he should rethink his vocation.
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It began when he was either a diocesan priest or Archbishop of Krakow. It applies to today’s “everyday” priests.
 
Jesus (Yesua) was wholly human as well as the chosen one of God - the Messiah. On the Cross he utters " My God, my God why have you forsaken me ?" Here in his last agony and racked with pain he thinks God has abandoned him, just as we often think the same. To make Jesus less than human, to deny him the understanding fully of our human condition is to deny what the Gospels teach us and enter the realm of mystic magic.
Popes like Jesus are also wholly human. If John Paul II whom I had the great good fortune to meet when he came to the UK, had a close female friend who cares. It is the evil in man that reads more into a relationship than was there.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
It began when he was either a diocesan priest or Archbishop of Krakow. It applies to today’s “everyday” priests.
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I think some things apply to everyone, and we all struggle with these.
  1. Don’t talk about others when you don’t know what you are talking about
  2. Along the same lines, speculating about what happened when you don’t know what happened can only lead to arguments, gossip, rumors, and defamation. AKA sin.
  3. Always assume the best of someone rather than every perverse and titillating possibilty (not too hard to do in the case of St JP2)
    Geez, our pastor runs a parish with a team of women (whooole 'nother topic) who he spends long hours with, and he likes them! It would be easy to talk and speculate about the laughter coming from the parish offices.
 
Happywife said:
I guess my question is how would you feel about the relationship if it was your spouse?
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I don’t think that too many married men would want their wives to be in a close relationship with a clergyman.
 
Peccavi said:
Jesus (Yesua) was wholly human as well as the chosen one of God - the Messiah. On the Cross he utters " My God, my God why have you forsaken me ?" Here in his last agony and racked with pain he thinks God has abandoned him, just as we often think the same. To make Jesus less than human, to deny him the understanding fully of our human condition is to deny what the Gospels teach us and enter the realm of mystic magic.
Popes like Jesus are also wholly human. If John Paul II whom I had the great good fortune to meet when he came to the UK, had a close female friend who cares. It is the evil in man that reads more into a relationship than was there.
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The words of Jesus you wrote are the beginning Psalm 22, which ends on a note of praise to God for his constant consolation. Christ did not think God had abandoned him. Just the opposite. Go read Psalm 22, and you will see.
 
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