The secret letters of Pope John Paul II - BBC

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Tomdstone said:
I don’t think that too many married men would want their wives to be in a close relationship with a clergyman.
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I don’t think many husbands would want their wives in a close relationship with any man, clergyman or not, and even if the relationship was “just friends.”
 
Lily_Bernans said:
The words of Jesus you wrote are the beginning Psalm 22, which ends on a note of praise to God for his constant consolation. Christ did not think God had abandoned him. Just the opposite. Go read Psalm 22, and you will see.
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It’s a question of interpretation. If Jesus was not wholly human as the Gnostics argued then my faith is undermined. If he was wholly human and like us suffered doubt then God truly entered the human condition and the Gospel truths are secured.
 
Peccavi said:
It’s a question of interpretation. If Jesus was not wholly human as the Gnostics argued then my faith is undermined. If he was wholly human and like us suffered doubt then God truly entered the human condition and the Gospel truths are secured.
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He was fully human and fully divine, the hypostatic union. He was fully human; his faith in the Father allowed him to escape despair, however, he certainly suffered as any one of us would suffer.
 
Men can have women friends. Men can have married women friends. I certainly do. The relationship was not secret. Her husband knew about it and it seems it was not secretive. As to whether he may have had some romantic feelings toward her, or vice versa, that just makes him human.

Not to create a distraction here, but I am not what one would call a JPII apologist. If one wants to criticize him, there are things one could certainly point to. Being human and having friends is not one of them. He was a good man, but he was a human. That is a not a fault, it is a good thing.
 
DaddyGirl said:
He wrote to her,** “I belong to you.”**
That’s intense … and not something you say to “just a friend,” as you say.
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Can writing letters like this ever be considered putting oneself “in occasion of sin”?
I’m unclear on the definition of that…or what it means to create “scandal”?
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Is it all right for a Roman Catholic clergyman to write romantic letters to a married woman? If this is something which is going on, why wouldn’t it be much better to allow all Roman Catholic clergy to marry an unattached woman?
 
Tomdstone said:
Is it all right for a Roman Catholic clergyman to write romantic letters to a married woman? If this is something which is going on, why wouldn’t it be much better to allow all Roman Catholic clergy to marry an unattached woman?
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It’s not all right, even if she were single, and I’m not saying the letters were romantic. I’m in no position to judge that. I’m just saying, as the niece of seven priests and two archbishops, yes, it’s natural for priests to fall in love at times. When they do, they are supposed to distance themselves from the woman, the sooner the better. Under no conditions are they supposed to encourage the relationship.

As for people saying “It just means he’s human,” sure it does, but we all know there are human impulses we have to curb.

I say that and I have been a JP II apologist big time for years.
 
It actually sounds more like she was in love with him.
“I was looking for an answer to these words, ‘I belong to you,’ and finally, before leaving Poland, I found a way—a scapular,” he writes in a September 1976 letter. “The dimension in which I accept and feel you everywhere in all kinds of situations, when you are close, and when you are far away.”
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It reads as though *she *told him “I belong to you” and he attempted to find an appropriate way to respond.

Either way, I don’t find this disturbing in the slightest. If he were in love with her, it didn’t seem to interfere with his work and life as a priest and it’s assumed that he never acted on his feelings physically. It also seems he never interrupted her marriage but instead consulted with her husband on political matters.
 
DaddyGirl said:
He wrote to her,** “I belong to you.”**
That’s intense … and not something you say to “just a friend,” as you say.

Yes, he’s human…and I’m glad his peers say it’s understandable even for a pope to “fall in love” – as one priest wrote.

Can writing letters like this ever be considered putting oneself “in occasion of sin”?
I’m unclear on the definition of that…or what it means to create “scandal”?

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I belong to you…
And tell me , Daddy Girl , what about those
Yours truly
Yours sincerely
Yours affectionately

What if we make those " yours" romantic and intense?:cool:
Can' t " I belong to you " be a translation from polish of such " prescribed " ending or wording ?
 
gracepoole said:
It actually sounds more like she was in love with him.

It reads as though *she *told him “I belong to you” and he attempted to find an appropriate way to respond.

Either way, I don’t find this disturbing in the slightest. If he were in love with her, it didn’t seem to interfere with his work and life as a priest and it’s assumed that he never acted on his feelings physically. It also seems he never interrupted her marriage but instead consulted with her husband on political matters.
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She was in love with him, and the thing to do is for him to distance himself from her, not keep writing to her. That only encourages her love.

We’d have to see all the letters, at lest some of hers, to put things in proper context.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
She was in love with him, and the thing to do is for him to distance himself from her, not keep writing to her. That only encourages her love.

We’d have to see all the letters, at lest some of hers, to put things in proper context.
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I ll try and find Aciprensa and what the Director of the Library where the letters are kept say.
I ve been reading it in Spanish.
None of the closest give 2 cents for this " supposedly" romantic story.
Hold on for a short while ,Lily !🙂 …if you can ,that is.

Here is one
translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.aciprensa.com/noticias/un-bulo-en-la-bbc-juan-pablo-ii-no-tuvo-intensa-relacion-con-una-mujer-casada-59935/&usg=ALkJrhhysb8EI4QDnwvJVWFxlqD2e4AwgQ

Here is another one

translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com.ar&tl=en&u=http://m.lavoz.com.ar/mundo/afirman-que-las-cartas-de-juan-pablo-ii-con-la-mujer-eran-una-broma-de-san-valentin&usg=ALkJrhhMXJkMGW8rnO4nlsggcmW97csKNg
 
graciew said:
I ll try and find Aciprensa and what the Director of the Library where the letters are kept say.
I ve been reading it in Spanish.
None of the closest give 2 cents for this " supposedly" romantic story.
Hold on for a short while ,Lily !🙂 …if you can ,that is.

Here is one
translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.aciprensa.com/noticias/un-bulo-en-la-bbc-juan-pablo-ii-no-tuvo-intensa-relacion-con-una-mujer-casada-59935/&usg=ALkJrhhysb8EI4QDnwvJVWFxlqD2e4AwgQ
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Thank you!
 
Lily_Bernans said:
She was in love with him, and the thing to do is for him to distance himself from her, not keep writing to her. That only encourages her love.

We’d have to see all the letters, at lest some of hers, to put things in proper context.
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Perhaps the situation was more complex than this, though. Clearly she and JPII connected on a number of levels, not least of which was philosophical in nature. That they maintained their close friendship until his death and did so without it disrupting her marriage or his papacy seems to indicate that they found a way to navigate the complexity of the relationship while still reaping its benefits.
 
gracepoole said:
Perhaps the situation was more complex than this, though. Clearly she and JPII connected on a number of levels, not least of which was philosophical in nature. That they maintained their close friendship until his death and did so without it disrupting her marriage or his papacy seems to indicate that they found a way to navigate the complexity of the relationship while still reaping its benefits.
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I’m sure it was complex and complicated.

I don’t judge anyone, but I still wish the BBC had never dredged this up. But, it’s the BBC.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
I’m sure it was complex and complicated.

I don’t judge anyone, but I still wish the BBC had never dredged this up. But, it’s the BBC.
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I like the BBC. 🙂

This is something akin to finding out that Mother Teresa experienced deep, lasting spiritual droughts – “emptiness, darkness,” as she called it. “I have no faith,” she wrote. I love and respect her more for these truly human thoughts and reactions.
 
gracepoole said:
I like the BBC. 🙂

This is something akin to finding out that Mother Teresa experienced deep, lasting spiritual droughts – “emptiness, darkness,” as she called it. “I have no faith,” she wrote. I love and respect her more for these truly human thoughts and reactions.
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I love and respect her more for that, too, but that was her relationship with Christ. It did not involve another person. That’s a huge difference. And her spiritual director made the letters public, so all can see there was nothing unseemly in them. Just letters from a lover of Christ to her spiritual director and his advice. She wanted them destroyed, but he thought they would help others, and they do, immensely.

The BBC is okay, but I wish they would have left this alone. It’s between JP II, the woman, and God, really. It’s private information I wish I hadn’t learned, and just the tip of the iceberg, too. I will not judge anyone, but it’s impossible not to think about it. JP II was, and is, such a towering figure in the Catholic Church.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
The BBC is okay, but I wish they would have left this alone. It’s between JP II, the woman, and God, really. It’s private information I wish I hadn’t learned, and just the tip of the iceberg, too. I will not judge anyone, but it’s impossible not to think about it. JP II was, and is, such a towering figure in the Catholic Church.
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Don’t be lulled into a false sense of security regarding the BBC. The BBC has a very liberal agenda. It may present this agenda in a very ‘British’ fashion, with a calm, polite voice, but the agenda is there. In the UK, the BBC’s agenda is very apparent. In my opinion, the BBC is not a benign organisation.

As for St Pope John Paul, he has not been guilty of any impropriety in this. He had a very close friend who was a married woman and he cared deeply for her. That is all.

Thinking that this is the tip of the iceberg is to fall into the trap of those who would like us to think this. It is suggestive of some moral impropriety and scandal on behalf of this great pope and saint. If there was any evidence of this do you think that the BBC would not have readily exposed it? Of course they would have. But there is no such evidence and no reason to think negatively of St Pope John Paul II.
 
Thank you for telling me about the BBC, and for your other advice, Brendan. I appreciate it.
 
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