The Seven Catholic Sacraments

[ChrisCrop]

esdra, what you quoted was NOT hte sinner’s prayer.
the sinner’s prayer baptists use , have Jesus Christ in it.

The bible verse you showed me…the guy makes no meniton o

1. beleiving in Jesus
2. beliving he died for our sins
3. accepting christ as “personal lord and savior”

 

[Esdra]

OK the one step further. Luke 22:19-22, Christ says the this is my body and my blood, this links back to John’s Gospel. Taking “do this in rememberance of me” to mean sharing bread and wine during prayer is a misinterpetation. From the very begining of the Church the Apostles and early Fathers understood transsubstituion.

1 Cor 11:27-29 he is teaching that one must be worthy to consume the bread and wine. If it we only bread and wine and this was a “feast of rememberance” why the warning?

Since you are/were Catholic, at what point did you stop believing that the bread and wine is the true body and blood of Christ?

Hi,

I guess I never have believed that bread and wine is the true body and blood of Christ…
As I have mentioned a hundred times here in CAF, I was really VERY poor catechised.
I mean, I can remember when I was a child, I often helped my granny to clean the Church and she told me that Jesus is real present behind the “Hight Altar”. I was impressed. But I still was a child.
I guess, I have never really understood the true meaning of the Holy Eucharist.
I mean, I heared about it when I was in preperation course for first communion, but I guess I never got it. - I guess, I was simply not interested in religion in that time…

But my theory is that there is a point in one’s life where you start searching for spirituality.
So I started reading the bible - and came in nearly all points of doctrine to very similiar, if not identical understanding than the Baptists (as I know now in the meantime).

I mean, I have found Jesus now — there was none who would have helped me in my spiritual journey from the Catholic side…
A former class mate of mine said, when I had told her that I have found Jesus in the Baptist Church: “Oh, I am happy for you. But on the other hand sorry, why didn’t you tell me you are searching? I didn’t know.” - She is a faithful catholic believing in the magesterium with quite strong charismatic leanings (Catholic Charismatic Renewal).

Yeah, if I would have known that there ARE faithful Catholics in the CC and someone would have took me with him/her to such gatherings, yeah, I probably would have never left the CC.
You see, most Catholic I got to know (remember: Catholic dominated country: over 80% of all Christians are C.!), were not faithful - they were either cafeteria Catholics, or Catholics by name only.

And considering Carina, my former classmate, about her and her family my mom said: “They are bigots and mentally crazy”, or so.
I didn’t know that actually this would have been really faithful Catholic Christians…

But now, I always keep saying, it is too late to go back to the CC again. - I have found a new family in the Baptist Church.
I do not hate Catholics, but see them as brothers and sisters in Christ - first and formost the “faithful Catholics” who I know so less!

In Christ,
Esdra

 

[Barbkw]

From your comments, it appears you attend the Baptist Church because you are searching for a Christian family.

I can respect that. There may come a time in your life, where these people too, disappoint.

When and if, keep searching for deeper truth. We each go to God alone.

Prayers for your journey back.

 

[DebChris]

I can see where marriage would be. God created Adam and Eve and joined them in marriage and told them to be fruitful.Genesis 2:18,Genesis 2:23-24…

While as Catholics, we point to the Wedding at Cana as elevating matrimony to the level of Sacrament, I found it interesting when reading a novel written by a Jew, the reference to marriage as a sacrament. The last book of the OT, Malachi, laments the breaking of marriage covenants as a sign of unfaithfulness to one’s spouse and to God.

 

[JRKH]

Esdra,
Thank you for posting this background. I am not familiar with you frm previous threads and this helps me to understand better.
In a nutshell your testimony speaks to what we so often here from those who have left the Church - Poor Catechesis. And to paraphrase Fulton Sheen, Thousands leave what they “think” is the Church…but they really don’t know…

Hi,
I guess I never have believed that bread and wine is the true body and blood of Christ…
As I have mentioned a hundred times here in CAF, I was really VERY poor catechised.
I mean, I can remember when I was a child, I often helped my granny to clean the Church and she told me that Jesus is real present behind the “Hight Altar”. I was impressed. But I still was a child.
I guess, I have never really understood the true meaning of the Holy Eucharist.
I mean, I heard about it when I was in preperation course for first communion, but I guess I never got it. - I guess, I was simply not interested in religion in that time…

Praise God for your granny. She sounds like a wonderful influence. I had one just like her. She would clean the Church, wash and iron the priest’s vestments etc.
The concepts of the Eucharist and the Real presence are certainly difficult ones, even for adults. How much more for children.

Recognizing how poorly catechized you were though, I’m glad you are here at CAF.
But my theory is that there is a point in one’s life where you start searching for spirituality.
So I started reading the bible - and came in nearly all points of doctrine to very similiar, if not identical understanding than the Baptists (as I know now in the meantime).

And if the Baptists had not matched your personal interpretation would you have joined them? Or would you have continued to look for a group that matched your beliefs.
Is this conforming yourself to Christ or conforming Christ to you?
Like I said earlier, I’ve been where you are, and am guilty of this same fault of believing my personal reading and understanding of the bible is better than 2000 years of Catholic Christian understanding and teaching.

I mean, I have found Jesus now — there was none who would have helped me in my spiritual journey from the Catholic side…
A former class mate of mine said, when I had told her that I have found Jesus in the Baptist Church: “Oh, I am happy for you. But on the other hand sorry, why didn’t you tell me you are searching? I didn’t know.” - She is a faithful catholic believing in the magesterium with quite strong charismatic leanings (Catholic Charismatic Renewal).

Yeah, if I would have known that there ARE faithful Catholics in the CC and someone would have took me with him/her to such gatherings, yeah, I probably would have never left the CC.
You see, most Catholic I got to know (remember: Catholic dominated country: over 80% of all Christians are C.!), were not faithful - they were either cafeteria Catholics, or Catholics by name only.

Yes, you’ve hit another “hot button” for many catholics who have left the church. We have not been strong and faithful followers (as a whole) but obviously there are strong faithful Catholics out there and the fact that many are NOT strong in their faith does not negate the teachings fo that faith.
This same trouble of people being strong in their faith can be found in any denomination. In your case it stood out because, a) you were raised Catholic and b) because of it being a “Catholic Country” the Church was highly visible.

And considering Carina, my former classmate, about her and her family my mom said: “They are bigots and mentally crazy”, or so.
I didn’t know that actually this would have been really faithful Catholic Christians…

That is sad.
{quote]But now, I always keep saying, it is too late to go back to the CC again. - I have found a new family in the Baptist Church.
I do not hate Catholics, but see them as brothers and sisters in Christ - first and formost the “faithful Catholics” who I know so less!

In Christ,
Esdra
It’s never too late to come home. It may well be, given your exposure growing up, that God led you out of the Catholic Church for a time (though if you are baptized Catholic you remain Catholic). Now he has brought you to CAF where you can get good strong Catholic Catechesis. It may well be that He will lead you back Home to the Catholic Church where you can become one of many wonderful converts/reverts who are instilling new life, courage, outreach, and joy into The Church.
Keep questioning and learning.

Peace
James

 

[KathleenGee]

Esdra,

I have shared with you before…OK, you are a Baptist now…we Catholics are not a people of the book but of the gathering of Christ upon His Word and Flesh.

We see the life of God in the Jewish people…but where is the life of Christ among the Christians after Revelations? Where is the implementation of Christianity, why doesn’t the New Testament show the history of Christianity like the Old Testament does?

Jesus said there would never be enough books able to be written about Him…what did he mean by that?

Why didn’t He just ‘get it over with’ and hand out Bibles or have His apostles instead direct their efforts to writing books and giving them to the peoples??

Have you ever studied the contents of an ancient catechism? A young woman was brought up in an American anti-Catholic family. She found transcripts from the ancient catechisms. Later she got hold of a modern Catholic catechism and was shocked to find the modern catechism is teaching the same as the ancient.

My family was invited to go to a Baptist church. I was in the third grade… The building inside was secular looking, nothing holy. This minister got up and started raging about the evil Catholic church. Even though I was a child, I saw this man as in darkness and he frightened me. It was weird and not sane. I was so happy to be back at Mass and you never hear a priest putting other Christians down, condemning them, or using alot of heavy emotions to move people.

The Word of God is Holy, Sacred, and enlightening. At Mass, when we hear the Old Testament readings, we are witnessing again the events of the Jewish people, we reflect on them, and we see we are enduring some of the same trials they had.

The Word of God should never be used as one upmanship or to condemn another person or classification of people. The Word of God is for guiding and redeeming us, and not to be used for self-justification. We need to be especially cautious in using Sacred Scripture to justify our own ‘holiness’ or righteous against other Christians. And I know there are some Baptists out there who do not even consider us as even having the Scriptures at Mass or even being Christian.

Christ always is calling us to oneness, that was His constant prayer. He is always calling us to come to His Banquet table, that the kingdom of Christ is within. When He said at the Last Supper, ‘Do this in memory of Me’, He was directing this statement to the Apostles, that attending at the Sacred Banquet Table—the fulfillment of ancient Jewish worship – was the Apostles’ directives as priests in recalling Jesus at the Mass. The Apostles were to bring about the fulfilled worship of God through Christ.

Esdras, do you acknowledge that in the Bible, God told Moses how He wanted to be worshipped, and not how the Jews thought He should be worshipped?

Have you looked at the description of the temple, to the daily sacrifice with the lambs, to even the details of the priests’ vestments in Exodus? There was a remark that God did not want their rituals, but sincere hearts…that did not mean to do away with Jewish worship or the priesthood…otherwise the Bible would have told us that. It did not happen. God never intended to do away with ritual or the priesthood.

Besides reading the catechism of ancient Christians, have you ever read how the early Christians worshipped…have you read the description of worship by St. Justin the Martyr in 155 AD, 60 years after the death of St. John the Evangelist? Do you know that he described the Mass at the request of the Emperor of Rome and the description conformed to how Christians worshipped throughout the ancient world at that time?

 

[FAB]

Hi,

I guess I never have believed that bread and wine is the true body and blood of Christ…
As I have mentioned a hundred times here in CAF, I was really VERY poor catechised.
I mean, I can remember when I was a child, I often helped my granny to clean the Church and she told me that Jesus is real present behind the “Hight Altar”. I was impressed. But I still was a child.
I guess, I have never really understood the true meaning of the Holy Eucharist.
I mean, I heared about it when I was in preperation course for first communion, but I guess I never got it. - I guess, I was simply not interested in religion in that time…

But my theory is that there is a point in one’s life where you start searching for spirituality.
So I started reading the bible - and came in nearly all points of doctrine to very similiar, if not identical understanding than the Baptists (as I know now in the meantime).

I mean, I have found Jesus now — there was none who would have helped me in my spiritual journey from the Catholic side…
A former class mate of mine said, when I had told her that I have found Jesus in the Baptist Church: “Oh, I am happy for you. But on the other hand sorry, why didn’t you tell me you are searching? I didn’t know.” - She is a faithful catholic believing in the magesterium with quite strong charismatic leanings (Catholic Charismatic Renewal).

Yeah, if I would have known that there ARE faithful Catholics in the CC and someone would have took me with him/her to such gatherings, yeah, I probably would have never left the CC.
You see, most Catholic I got to know (remember: Catholic dominated country: over 80% of all Christians are C.!), were not faithful - they were either cafeteria Catholics, or Catholics by name only.

And considering Carina, my former classmate, about her and her family my mom said: “They are bigots and mentally crazy”, or so.
I didn’t know that actually this would have been really faithful Catholic Christians…

But now, I always keep saying, it is too late to go back to the CC again. - I have found a new family in the Baptist Church.
I do not hate Catholics, but see them as brothers and sisters in Christ - first and formost the “faithful Catholics” who I know so less!

In Christ,
Esdra

Esdra,
By your first post it sounds as though you are still serching for answers which is a good thing.
Your story is not uncommon. I ask because in a few short weeks I will be ordained as a Permenant Deacon in the Catholic Church and I am interested in how I can help individuals just like you find the spirituality you seek within the Church. It is true on a couple of counts that we as a church have not done the best job of catichising our faithful. Catholics are also sometimes our own worst example of our faith. We often take it to casually, and as you said become cafateria style.
I will encourage you to keep seeking. Your questions about the sacraments are good since they may help you to understand the fullness of grace and truth within the Church you are leaving. It’s not as simple as if it not in the bible I’m not going to believe it. To understand that the Holy Spirit continues to reveal the message of the Lord to each generation is a concept to be grasped.
As far as the the Eucharist being the true body and blood of our savior, his physical and just not spirtual presance for us. This is the point that we put reason aside and our faith comes forth. If you believe that Christ changed water into wine, healed the sick forgave sins and rose from the dead, why is it difficult to believe that the third person of God, the Holy Spirit is present as the preist calls upon Him to change the humble offering of the bread and wine, made by human hands into the actual body and blood of out Lord?
In our modern scientific world we want facts, but often that very reasoning blinds us to the miracles of God. We turn a great mystery, beyond our understanding into a rememberance.

Peace, in my daily prayer , those like you are included, that you will see that your true home is in Christ’s Church.

 

[Esdra]

Hi

thank you for sharing the Lutheran position to this topic.

The Lutheran Evangelical Joice probably would’ve been my second choice if I wouldn’t have found the Baptist Church. I have also quite often visited Lutheran services.

Did you know that Baptists (at least my Church) considers Luther as a kind of Church Father? - They even use (sometimes) his catechism.

Esdra

You asked for a Lutheran view. So, first, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments. For rites instituted by men will not in this way be Sacraments properly so called. For it does not belong to human authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without God’s command are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps instruct the rude [children or the uncultivated], or admonish as to something [as a painted cross]. 4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments.
Here, the Lutheran view is almost identical to the Catholic view - it is a sacrament - one Baptism for the remission of sins. Luther strongly condemned anabaptism.

From a Lutheran view, the Gospel accounts and Paul’s account are better than John 6, as they say in Christ’s own words at the event - “This is my body”. And it is, indeed. From Luther: “Before I drink mere wine with the Swiss, I shall drink blood with the pope”. IOW, Transubstantiation is far the better explanation of the Lord’s Supper than a symbolic remembrance.

The verse supporting it (Lutherans call it confession/ HolyAbsolution, has already been presented. Luther stronly support private confession, and the rite of Confession/Absolution appears in most Lutheran service books. As the Apology says above, this is a sacrament. Some Lutherans link Absolution so closely to Baptism, that they don’t list it as a separate sacrament. I, personally, reject that view.

Of the others, marriage, confirmation and unction could easily be considered sacraments, as they in some ways, meet the Apology’s definition. Orders, less so, though I consider quite important to the Church.

Curious that you invoke Luther, yet choose to reject his view of both sacraments you referred to as scriptural, and his view of both is essentially the view of the Church Catholic.

I hope some of the other posters have helped you in this way.

Jon

 

[Esdra]

Hi Kathleen,

yes, we have already corresponded before! I like you, really.

But I really have to defend in this case my Baptist Church (which by the way doesn’t have “Baptist” in its name. It’s a ‘Free Evangelical Church’ - and except that they also believe in credo baptism only and Sola scriptura, sola fide and sol iesus, they have little in common, judging from posts about and from American Baptists here in CAF, with the American Baptists).

Our pastor is great: He never said one single word against the CC and that she is not Christian or anything like that. On the contrary: He tries to find the dialogue between the various Christian Churches - he even wanted to start an eucumenical prayer evening - but scattered at the CC - the catholic Priest said: “He doesn’t want to have anything to do with ‘this sect’”. Our pastor always says: We believe in the same god and believe in Jesus. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and if you can’t pray together with a person from another Church, you don’t love your brother.

So I think this is also important to know for all of you, as obviously only very few, have read my older posts!

For me basically I guess it is hard to believe in the mystery Catholics believe in, concerning Real Presence, or that for a worship/mass a priest is necessary as a link between god and the people… or the Eucharist itself. The Holy Spirit changes bread and wine in the real blood and flesh of Jesus? For me this sounds like a sacrifce like the Jews did sacrifice lambs etc to god. I have learned through my bible studies that the sacrifce of Jesus Christ was sufficent - no other that pure sacrifice could have been brought before God and now we can again have a relationship to Him with Jesus Christ as the link.
There are no other sacrifices like in the old days needed anymore…
Of course we also have the Holy Supper but we do it “in remembrance” of what Jesus has done for us on the cross. - And because someone has mentioned that: The warning in 1 Cor 11:28 ff refers to that we need to know what Jesus has done to us on the Cross and think him for that - St. Paul wanted to say that this is not a “normal supper” (because in 1 Cor 11:21 he writes: "For in eating every one takes before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. ") but a symbolic meal in remebrance what Jesus has done for us.

Esdra

Esdra,

I have shared with you before…OK, you are a Baptist now…we Catholics are not a people of the book but of the gathering of Christ upon His Word and Flesh.

We see the life of God in the Jewish people…but where is the life of Christ among the Christians after Revelations? Where is the implementation of Christianity, why doesn’t the New Testament show the history of Christianity like the Old Testament does?

Jesus said there would never be enough books able to be written about Him…what did he mean by that?

Why didn’t He just ‘get it over with’ and hand out Bibles or have His apostles instead direct their efforts to writing books and giving them to the peoples??

Have you ever studied the contents of an ancient catechism? A young woman was brought up in an American anti-Catholic family. She found transcripts from the ancient catechisms. Later she got hold of a modern Catholic catechism and was shocked to find the modern catechism is teaching the same as the ancient.

My family was invited to go to a Baptist church. I was in the third grade… The building inside was secular looking, nothing holy. This minister got up and started raging about the evil Catholic church. Even though I was a child, I saw this man as in darkness and he frightened me. It was weird and not sane. I was so happy to be back at Mass and you never hear a priest putting other Christians down, condemning them, or using alot of heavy emotions to move people.

The Word of God is Holy, Sacred, and enlightening. At Mass, when we hear the Old Testament readings, we are witnessing again the events of the Jewish people, we reflect on them, and we see we are enduring some of the same trials they had.

The Word of God should never be used as one upmanship or to condemn another person or classification of people. The Word of God is for guiding and redeeming us, and not to be used for self-justification. We need to be especially cautious in using Sacred Scripture to justify our own ‘holiness’ or righteous against other Christians. And I know there are some Baptists out there who do not even consider us as even having the Scriptures at Mass or even being Christian.

Christ always is calling us to oneness, that was His constant prayer. He is always calling us to come to His Banquet table, that the kingdom of Christ is within. When He said at the Last Supper, ‘Do this in memory of Me’, He was directing this statement to the Apostles, that attending at the Sacred Banquet Table—the fulfillment of ancient Jewish worship – was the Apostles’ directives as priests in recalling Jesus at the Mass. The Apostles were to bring about the fulfilled worship of God through Christ.

Esdras, do you acknowledge that in the Bible, God told Moses how He wanted to be worshipped, and not how the Jews thought He should be worshipped?

Have you looked at the description of the temple, to the daily sacrifice with the lambs, to even the details of the priests’ vestments in Exodus? There was a remark that God did not want their rituals, but sincere hearts…that did not mean to do away with Jewish worship or the priesthood…otherwise the Bible would have told us that. It did not happen. God never intended to do away with ritual or the priesthood.

…]

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
Thank you for posting this background. I am not familiar with you frm previous threads and this helps me to understand better.
In a nutshell your testimony speaks to what we so often here from those who have left the Church - Poor Catechesis. And to paraphrase Fulton Sheen, Thousands leave what they “think” is the Church…but they really don’t know…

With pleasure!

Praise God for your granny. She sounds like a wonderful influence. I had one just like her. She would clean the Church, wash and iron the priest’s vestments etc.
The concepts of the Eucharist and the Real presence are certainly difficult ones, even for adults. How much more for children.

Oh yes, she is a wonderful person. But actually, because of her (she was very authorative in catholic educating here 3 daughters) my mom left the Church… and secondly when mom had scattered on our priest at that time to renew our Parish (Charismatic Renewal) she then really had left.
I like talking to granny now and it is amazing how much she knows about Christ and the Church. But I never told her that I have converted (or better said: soon will be) - I don’t know how she would react… I guess she wasn’t to happy knowing from mom that she was in the Charismatic Renewal (Of course I only know that from stories dad and mom had told me). How would she react then if she found out that I am in a sect (and I guess in the eyes of most Catholics here in Austria the Baptists ARE a sect)
I have also attended the rosary with her for one and another time.
I really like the rosary - it is so meditative. I mean I don’t really believe in Mary as a link between the people and Jesus and so I also don’t believe that Mary (or any other Saint) can answer prayers - only Jesus can! But I love the rosary as a kind of meditation, like also praying before the real presence (meditative/repetative prayers which is so common in the CC) - although I have done least very seldom so far. Actually, I really miss all the “meditative stuff” in the Baptist Church…

And if the Baptists had not matched your personal interpretation would you have joined them? Or would you have continued to look for a group that matched your beliefs.
…]

Well, I haven’t thought about that. For me the fact that the Baptists believe the same than I do was a signt that I have been right, that the Holy Spirit has guided me really in understanding the Scriptures!
As I said a post earlier: My second choice would’ve been the Lutheran Church, although even there are a lot of cafeteria lutherans or even lutherans on the paper only (at least here in Austria).

…]
This same trouble of people being strong in their faith can be found in any denomination. In your case it stood out because, a) you were raised Catholic and b) because of it being a “Catholic Country” the Church was highly visible.

Yes, definitely. I mean a mass never touched me. I didn’t really know what was going on here. I mean I knew and know the rituals (the answers to the prayers of the priest, kneeling, standing up, Holy water and so on) but this never touched my heart. I couldn’t see Jesus in any mass nor in bread and wine. It was just more or less an obligation. You just do repetitavely what you know you have to do or better said what was expected. Later on, I tried to listen to the priest, what he was actually praying. - But I didn’t get it. I even didn’t get that these prayers are word by word from the Holy Bible (as I know from CAF in the meantime) I guess I have never understood the real meaning of the mass.

When I have become a Baptists, I have often visited masses with my family at the High feasts (like Christmas and Easter) and I have payed close attention to the Gospel Reading and the reading of the OT in the lesson and the sermon. This became really important for me when I have attended mass (or "word-service) in our Catholic parish (which in this case is the whole of our political community plus the neighbouring village!).

The funny thing is: When I have asked my dad (when he had gone to mass more regular and I was a very young Baptist): “What was the Gospel and what was the sermon about?” - he normally couldn’t answer. I guess he is kind of a sleep - and I have always had the feeling that nearly everybody is at sleep in mass. None pays attention! On the contrary in my Baptist Church: There are bibles in the Church and nearly everybody is reading the verses the Pastor or Elder uses in the Bible-reading or the sermon.

That is sad.

Yes, it is. In the meantime I know that she and her family were probably one of the few who are “real Catholics” in our parish. There were also rumours about this family in my village that Carinas mom ones phoned another former class-mate of mine and said that she had to draw out a demon of her… And other rumours. These rumours, I guess, are also one of the reasons, why they were seen insane and bigots.
Especially Medjugorje (HR) (what this family also has visited) is a “place for bigots and mentally ill”, as mom keeps saying.

It’s never too late to come home. It may well be, given your exposure growing up, that God led you out of the Catholic Church for a time (though if you are baptized Catholic you remain Catholic). Now he has brought you to CAF where you can get good strong Catholic Catechesis. …].

Well, I just have the feeling that Jesus wants me to have where I am now. He gave me a new family. Can I leave my family? They have already done so much good for me: They have encouraged me when I felt bad, they prayed for me and with me, they laughed together with me and shared my joy etc. We have read the bible together…
And sadly enough, I have never experienced something like that in the CC…

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

From your comments, it appears you attend the Baptist Church because you are searching for a Christian family.

I can respect that. There may come a time in your life, where these people too, disappoint.

When and if, keep searching for deeper truth. We each go to God alone.

Prayers for your journey back.

Hi

yes, that can be. But I hope this will never happen. So far nothing in this direction happened.
I am happy that I found a community of Christians who believe more or less the way I believe who respect me as I am and who became my new family.

Esdra

 

[DebChris]

Esdra,
As JRKH posted, I too have the feeling that you are still seeking. Why else would you have asked about the scriptural basis of the Sacraments? My question is the same as his. Are you leaving the CC because you are drawn by Christ, or because you are drawn by the people who belong to the other church? People will always disappoint; God will not. Which is more important, the church’s theology or the fellowship of its members?
Jesus prayed that all might be one as He and the Father are one. When we leave each other, when we separate we are no longer one. One problem with sola scriptural is that it limits God to the pages of a book. Christ did not come to us in a book, but as a man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He is Immanuel, God with us, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, God in us.
Poor catechesis from the past can be changed. Does your local Catholic church offer an enrichment program? Did you ever take advantage of it?
Cursillo is a lay Catholic movement that began in Spain as an effort to address a lack of catechesis shortly after WWII.
Much of what the Church teaches lies in mystery. St. Augustine trying to understand the Trinity saw a child digging in the sand. As it is impossible to empty the ocean, it is also impossible to adequately explain the Trinity, or how ordinary unleavened bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The same words written on paper can be interpreted different ways, depending on personal background and inclination. Do you reject John 6 because you find it as difficult to accept as those listening when Jesus gave this teaching? The teaching of Christ were initially preached orally and only later committed to paper. These teachings were entrusted to the Apostles and have been handed down intact to us by the magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, safeguarded by the Holy Spirit.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other Apostles, "Brothers, what should we do? Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers. (Acts 2: 37,41-42)

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
As JRKH posted, I too have the feeling that you are still seeking. Why else would you have asked about the scriptural basis of the Sacraments? My question is the same as his. Are you leaving the CC because you are drawn by Christ, or because you are drawn by the people who belong to the other church? People will always disappoint; God will not. Which is more important, the church’s theology or the fellowship of its members?
Jesus prayed that all might be one as He and the Father are one. When we leave each other, when we separate we are no longer one. One problem with sola scriptura is that it limits God to the pages of a book. Christ did not come to us in a book, but as a man. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He is Immanuel, God with us, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, God in us.
Poor catechesis from the past can be changed. Does your local Catholic church offer an enrichment program? Did you ever take advantage of it?
Cursillo is a lay Catholic movement that began in Spain as an effort to address a lack of catechesis shortly after WWII.
Much of what the Church teaches lies in mystery. St. Augustine trying to understand the Trinity saw a child digging in the sand. As it is impossible to empty the ocean, it is also impossible to adequately explain the Trinity, or how ordinary unleavened bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The same words written on paper can be interpreted different ways, depending on personal background and inclination. Do you reject John 6 because you find it as difficult to accept as those listening when Jesus gave this teaching? The teaching of Christ were initially preached orally and only later committed to paper. These teachings were entrusted to the Apostles and have been handed down intact to us by the magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, safeguarded by the Holy Spirit.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other Apostles, "Brothers, what should we do? Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers. (Acts 2: 37,41-42)

Hi,

well, I am not sure if I am actually searching.
I am just interested. Interested to get to know my culture, where I am actually from. Because in Austria Catholicism IS so to speak equal with culture…

I know about Cursillo. Our parish offers Cursillo courses as well. And even other programs. I guess I will visit one of these programs offered there in my Christmas holidays (who thankfully will start soon! ) I really have a longing for meditation/mystery/spirituality - which the Baptist Church can’t offer, as I have found out. I mean the big advantage among the Baptists is their sense of community, I have never felt in the CC. (see my previous post).
By the way in a very beautiful area a very small village called “Kronburg” at about 1000 metre sea level. There is also a small monastir which belongs to the “compassionate sisters” who have their main monastir in our neighbouring village.

I have never heared of something like enrichment program so far. But this could also be that I simply don’t understand what it means in German (my mother tongue, naturally, as I am from Austria! )

I am pretty sure that I was drown to this Baptist Church by Jesus. That the community is really nice and I have found a new family is “only a very positive side effect”.
I guess I have been searching for a “Christian family” indeed - and I found it.
And I am happy that I found it.
And I wrote that it “is too late know to come back to the CC” because one can’t leave his family, can he?
By the way: to return to the CC, there are still too many things I can’t believe what the she teaches.
But I do and can believe what the Baptist teaches. So this is my home, isn’t it?
As I am in a Catholic dominated country, I can always go to Catholic events.
As JRKH said before: I can’t escape the CC in Austria. (not a literal quote!)

esdra

 

[JonNC]

Hi

thank you for sharing the Lutheran position to this topic.

The Lutheran Evangelical Joice probably would’ve been my second choice if I wouldn’t have found the Baptist Church. I have also quite often visited Lutheran services.

Did you know that Baptists (at least my Church) considers Luther as a kind of Church Father? - They even use (sometimes) his catechism.

Esdra

No, I didn’t know that. I would guess they skip the parts about the sacraments. How do they respond to the section on the Apostle’s Creed, and the numbering of the 10 Commandments?

Jon

 

[DebChris]

No, I didn’t know that. I would guess they skip the parts about the sacraments. How do they respond to the section on the Apostle’s Creed, and the numbering of the 10 Commandments?

Jon

Non-Catholic churches follow the 10 Commandments, although they number them differently than we do as Catholics. Mainline churches recite the Apostles’ Creed. While the Creed as recited by Catholics uses a lower case c for catholic, the Presbyterians version says Catholic.
Luther referred to confession as a “remedy against pride and self-delusion.” [Boenhoeffer *The Cost of Discipleship. We know that God is a merciful God. The TV was on when a non-denominational minister was preaching assertiveness. After giving one piece of advice, he told them “you can ask for God’s forgiveness afterward.” A poorly catechized individual could easily be duped and not realize the preacher had just told his congregation to sin.

 

[JRKH]

Oh yes, she is a wonderful person. But actually, because of her (she was very authorative in catholic educating here 3 daughters) my mom left the Church… and secondly when mom had scattered on our priest at that time to renew our Parish (Charismatic Renewal) she then really had left.
I like talking to granny now and it is amazing how much she knows about Christ and the Church. (Snip)
I have also attended the rosary with her for one and another time.
I really like the rosary - it is so meditative. I mean I don’t really believe in Mary as a link between the people and Jesus and so I also don’t believe that Mary (or any other Saint) can answer prayers - only Jesus can! But I love the rosary as a kind of meditation, like also praying before the real presence (meditative/repetative prayers which is so common in the CC) - although I have done least very seldom so far. Actually, I really miss all the “meditative stuff” in the Baptist Church…

I can understand the “authoritative” aspect you mention. My granny that I mentioned was quite similar. It wasn’t until much later, even after her death, that I discovered just how wonderful a lady she really was.
Please stick to praying the rosary. You are right it is wonderfully meditative. Also take time to pray beofre the blessed sacrament in the temple or during adoration. These things will begin to speak more and more to your heart. The Holy Spirit knows what He is doing here…

Well, I haven’t thought about that. For me the fact that the Baptists believe the same than I do was a signt that I have been right, that the Holy Spirit has guided me really in understanding the Scriptures!

And if you believed as the Methodists, they would have been a “sign”, or the Lutherans or the Catholics or the Orthodox or the…

I’ll share this with you. When I decided to return to the Catholic Church, I still didn’t agree with all of her teachings (I still have trouble with some). But I had done some research and determined that the Catholic Church HAD to be the Church that Christ founded. The history, timeline, development of the Bible, tracability of the Popes and some major bishoprics ECF’s etc, left no doubt that, if I was to call myself a Follower of Christ and obedient to His Word and Listen to The Church" (Mt 18:17) it had to be in the Catholic Church.
It was AFTER I returned and really started to study the Catholic teachings that I found that the Church really had it together.

Yes, definitely. I mean a mass never touched me. I didn’t really know what was going on. I mean I knew and know the rituals but this never touched my heart. I couldn’t see Jesus in any mass nor in bread and wine. It was just more or less an obligation. You just do repetitavely what you know you have to do or better said what was expected. Later on, I tried to listen to the priest, what he was actually praying. - But I didn’t get it. I even didn’t get that these prayers are word by word from the Holy Bible (as I know from CAF) I guess I have never understood the real meaning of the mass.

Yes I’m afraid that this can too often happen in “cradle catholics”. I suffered from the same problem. Now that I DO understand the real meaning of the mass, and DO recognize the real presence, I could not worship anywhere else and be filled. Protestant “evangelical” services just don’t do it. To me they are nothing more than “prayer services” and “bible studies” and frankly are more about the preacher than the Lord. Of course that is just my experience.

When I have become a Baptists, I have often visited masses with my family at the High feasts and I have payed close attention to the Gospel Reading and the reading of the OT in the lesson and the sermon. This became really important for me when I have attended mass (or "word-service) in our Catholic parish.
The funny thing is: When I have asked my dad, “What was the Gospel and what was the sermon about?” - he normally couldn’t answer. I guess he is kind of a sleep - and I have always had the feeling that nearly everybody is at sleep in mass. On the contrary in my Baptist Church: There are bibles in the Church and nearly everybody is reading the verses the Pastor or Elder uses in the Bible-reading or the sermon.

We have the same trouble over here. But you know what? I don’t go to mass for what others might or might not get out of it. I go to worship and partake of Christ Present on the Altar and the most precious gift any of Gods creatures could ever receive. Himself, fully present in the Eucharist.
Trust me, even if you don’t understand it, and haven’t felt it, it is definitely there and someday it will call you home.

Well, I just have the feeling that Jesus wants me to have where I am now. He gave me a new family. Can I leave my family? They have already done so much good for me: They have encouraged me when I felt bad, they prayed for me and with me, they laughed together with me and shared my joy etc. We have read the bible together…
And sadly enough, I have never experienced something like that in the CC…

Esdra

I agree that for the time being the Holy Spirit has put you here, and by that I mean with the Baptists AND here on CAF. Once He calls you back home to The Catholic Church, I believe He is going to have some very important work for you to do.
As for “Can you leave your family”, you may not have to. It might very well leave you. One of the things about these independent evangelical churches is how “preacher dependent” they are, and how dependent the preacher is on the more “influential” members of the congregation. If the "balance of power"shifts, the pastor you like may leave or be fired, or the congregation might split over some issue or other.
These kinds of things have been issues with Protestnat denominations since the time of Luther and Calvin…

Peace
James

 

[DebChris]

The Eucharist is the “source and summit” of Catholic faith. How bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is a mystery, not to be solved; rather it is a mystery to be entered into. Jesus calls each of us to a personal relationship, to a deep intimacy with our Creator. Unlike food for our body that changes to become part of us, when we consume the Eucharist, it is we who are transformed into the Body of Christ.
In the Mass, we are nourished by both the Word in scripture and through the Eucharist. The Mass itself is an act of worship. The definition of worship that I like actually comes from JD Jakes. When we worship, we offer ourselves to God in service. Mass comes from the word, mission. We are sent forth to “love and serve” the Lord.
The more we, like John the Baptist, “decrease that He might increase,” the more we are nourished and the greater our transformation.

The cup that we bless is a communion with the blood of Christ, and the bread that we break is a communion with the body of Christ. [1 Cor 10:16)

*Worship God in a way that is worthy of thinking beings, by offering your living bodies as a holy sacrifice, truly pleasing to God [Romans 12:1]

Pray constantly, and for all things give thanks to God, because this is what God expects you to do in Christ Jesus. [1 Thessalonians 5:18]

 

[JonNC]

Non-Catholic churches follow the 10 Commandments, although they number them differently than we do as Catholics. Mainline churches recite the Apostles’ Creed. While the Creed as recited by Catholics uses a lower case c for catholic, the Presbyterians version says Catholic.
Luther referred to confession as a “remedy against pride and self-delusion.” [Boenhoeffer *The Cost of Discipleship

. We know that God is a merciful God. The TV was on when a non-denominational minister was preaching assertiveness. After giving one piece of advice, he told them “you can ask for God’s forgiveness afterward.” A poorly catechized individual could easily be duped and not realize the preacher had just told his congregation to sin.

Thanks, DebChris,
The poster I was responding to, Esdra, made the comment that sometimes Baptists use Luther’s (Small) Catechism. It surprised me a bit considering that what’s in it seems unlike what my perception of what Baptists teach is. So, I was asking, in effect, how Baptists might use it.

My point in the post was that Lutherans number the 10 Commandments the same way Catholics do, and I was wondering how Baptists feel about that, since I don’t think they do (I could be wrong). I was also wondering if Baptists actually confess the Apostle’s Creed.

As for confession, while wha Luther said is true, it is also a means of grace, whereby the pastor/confessor grants absolution, in persona Christi.

Jon

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thanks, DebChris,
The poster I was responding to, Esdra, made the comment that sometimes Baptists use Luther’s (Small) Catechism. It surprised me a bit considering that what’s in it seems unlike what my perception of what Baptists teach is. So, I was asking, in effect, how Baptists might use it.

My point in the post was that Lutherans number the 10 Commandments the same way Catholics do, and I was wondering how Baptists feel about that, since I don’t think they do (I could be wrong). I was also wondering if Baptists actually confess the Apostle’s Creed.

As for confession, while wha Luther said is true, it is also a means of grace, whereby the pastor/confessor grants absolution, in persona Christi.

Jon

Jon I to was enterested in the responce to that as I have been around many Baptist form Southern, to American and so on. I have a hard time seeing Baptist useing Luthers samll catechism. I have never even heard a referrance to the Creeds by a Baptist. And a Baptist claims there pastor could grant absolution would have them bured as a heratic by the rest of the congregation.

 

[JonNC]

Jon I to was enterested in the responce to that as I have been around many Baptist form Southern, to American and so on. I have a hard time seeing Baptist useing Luthers samll catechism. I have never even heard a referrance to the Creeds by a Baptist. And a Baptist claims there pastor could grant absolution would have them bured as a heratic by the rest of the congregation.

Hi Scott,
Yes, that’s my perception, as well, but I certainly would trust a Baptist’s word about what they teach over mine. Here are the topics in the Small Catechism

• Luther’s Preface to the Small Catechism
• The Ten Commandments
• The Creed
• The Lord’s Prayer
• The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
• Confession
• The Sacrament of the Altar
• Daily Prayers
• Table of Duties
• Christian Questions with Their Answers

There just doesn’t seem a great deal there that Baptists would teach from (outside of the Lord’s Prayer and maybe some things in the last three topics), but I may be wrong. In fact, I hope I am wrong.

Jon