The subtle lie: Women must be powerful but not fruitful

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joyfulandactive said:
Could you please give me a example of a job in the USA that you can get with nothing more than a high school diploma and enable you to get a mortgage and support a family of six?
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Welder. If you’re willing to accept a 1950s standard of living:
  • No cell phones
  • Old CRT TV
  • No cable
  • Old car or no car
  • No central A/C
  • Small house, kids sharing rooms
  • Lots of processed foods for dinner (e.g. spam)
  • And many more
Aquinas11 said:
what do you mean by “acceptable roles”? tread carefully on that one…
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Your definition. I’m not the one saying that women should only be stay-at-home moms.
Sarcelle said:
Worldwide fertility rates have gone down, with the exception in Sub Saharan Africa.

Even in countries like the religiously conservative Iran and Saudi Arabia, fertility rates are now barely at replacement level. So it is not a matter of being religious or not.
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I think that is a factor, but again, not the only one. If you look at the US, evangelical Protestants and Catholics have higher fertility rates than the rest of the country.
 
My aunt, my father’s sister, was an Obstetrician and gynecologist.

She used her education to serve the poor, often being paid in chickens or vegetables by her patients because that’s all her patients could afford to give.

Her husband was a lawyer so the family did not really need whatever little she earned.

She was also a mother of 8.

She just passed away recently.

RIP
 
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This video is not to support having less children but more as an explanation for where the increase of people are coming from: people living longer. Once again, I am not supporting his ideology, just showing what is happening demographically.

 
joyfulandactive said:
This video is not to support having less children but more as an explanation for where the increase of people are coming from: people living longer. Once again, I am not supporting his ideology, just showing what is happening demographically.

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I’ve not said that people living longer is not a factor. It is. But the bigger factor, and the one that, long-term, will absolutely dwarf longevity gains, is reduction in childbearing.

I’ve seen and checked the math. It’s not just longevity.
 
I work in the railroad industry and the engineers and conductors who run the freight trains can earn as much as 6 figures.

Don’t need a degree higher than a high school diploma for that, however there is a lot of OJT.
 
I have personally had older generations complain about younger generations not having more children. An older retired couple were railing against young Catholic couples. The man had had 2 children and then got a vasectomy against his wife’s wishes. The woman was his second wife, she had had zero children. I stayed silent while they complained. I find it mystifying. They did not choose to raise large families and yet they criticize younger people.
 
joyfulandactive said:
I have personally had older generations complain about younger generations not having more children. An older retired couple were railing against young Catholic couples. The man had had 2 children and then got a vasectomy against his wife’s wishes. The woman was his second wife, she had had zero children. I stayed silent while they complained. I find it mystifying. They did not choose to raise large families and yet they criticize younger people.
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Egad.

That’s not me! I’m only 27! Still plenty of time for my wife and me to reach replacement level!
 
Aquinas11 said:
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LumineDiei:
you don’t get paid for being a mom
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another stunning phrase. ask any Mom and she’ll 100% disagree with that. You’re paid in ways that can never be quantified in mere monetary terms
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:raising_hand_woman: Mom here. And no, I don’t disagree with that because Lumine is speaking monetarily, which is important for any family. Of course mothers know that raising children and creating a loving home is of primary importance. But we live in a realist, not idealist, world that requires money to support a family.

The truth is that non-working mothers is a really recent invention. Most women of the past worked from home in some capacity as their family’s needs demanded it.
 
I spent my early childhood in a poor and developing country.

I remember women, mostly mothers cooking candied bananas and sweet potatoes and selling them out on the streets, to augment the family income.

Others sold flowers, others took in laundry and others worked cleaning the houses of the more well to do.

Both men and women earned what they could to feed and clothe their children.
 
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Let’s not forget it takes two to tango. A young woman (or man) has to find a partner willing and able to make lifelong vows while you are still fertile. If you want to have any children you need to discuss it and be willing and able to welcome those children. If one parent is going to stay home that clearly must be a joint decision and the other partner has to willing and able to support the spouse staying at home.

Nowadays there are many people not willing to take on that financial burden/commitment. There are men who make it clear they expect their wives to continue working full time. If a wife is the main bread winner is she willing to support a house husband?

So all of these sweeping statements about families need to have commitment and buy in from both partners. Many people do not see value in a parent staying home at all.
 
I raise that point as one of the “other” reasons people are not having more children. They are marrying later (if at all). So you clearly can’t have children or many children until you have a marriage partner.
 
joyfulandactive said:
I raise that point as one of the “other” reasons people are not having more children. They are marrying later (if at all). So you clearly can’t have children or many children until you have a marriage partner.
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This is ABSOLUTELY a factor. And I think it’s partly because of the “RomComification” of romance, if you’ll allow the neologism. People are now sold on finding the perfect partner who is wonderful in every way, both in terms of personality and attractiveness. And it takes some people way too long to realize that that’s not how it works.
 
How widespread is it though? These RomComification. It’s too easy to tell singles they’re too choosy.

The odds seem to be stacked against finding someone.

If you are a devout Catholic, devout Catholics of the opposite sex are as rare as a hen’s tooth.

Now factor into that an insecure job market where you can get laid off in a moment’s notice and you have to move often to where the jobs are. Hard to put down roots and get to meet and really get to know someone when you’re constantly moving.

Add to that student loans. Hard to imagine supporting loads of children when you’re barely able to make ends meet.

It’s like the perfect storm. All the factors coming together to create a perfect storm.

I’ve barely scratched the surface on this.
 
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Sarcelle said:
How widespread is it though? These RomComification. It’s too easy to tell singles they’re too choosy.

The odds seem to be stacked against finding someone.

If you are a devout Catholic, devout Catholics of the opposite sex are as rare as a hen’s tooth.
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There’s an appropriate level of choosiness. You should’t just try to get hitched to the next person you meet, but I saw over-pickiness all the time when I was single. Women’s profiles on dating sites so often demanded a guy with a car, a six-figure income, at least 6’ tall, etc. Men can be just as bad, I’m sure, but I didn’t spend much time on their profiles.

Also, the dating world for educated young women is terrible. ANOTHER BOOK RECOMMENDATION: “Date-onomics,” by Jon Birger. Long story short, few educated women are willing to date blue-collar men, and there are a lot more women getting degrees now than men. As a result, in the white-collar dating market, men are the scarce resource and things are very tough for women.
Sarcelle said:
Now factor into that an insecure job market where you can get laid off in a moment’s notice and you have to move often to where the jobs are. Hard to put down roots and get to meet and really get to know someone when you’re constantly moving.

Add to that student loans. Hard to imagine supporting loads of children when you’re barely able to make ends meet.

It’s like the perfect storm. All the factors coming together to create a perfect storm.

I’ve barely scratched the surface on this.
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Many, many factors.
 
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Sarcelle said:
How widespread is it though? These RomComification. It’s too easy to tell singles they’re too choosy.

The odds seem to be stacked against finding someone.

If you are a devout Catholic, devout Catholics of the opposite sex are as rare as a hen’s tooth.

Now factor into that an insecure job market where you can get laid off in a moment’s notice and you have to move often to where the jobs are. Hard to put down roots and get to meet and really get to know someone when you’re constantly moving.

Add to that student loans. Hard to imagine supporting loads of children when you’re barely able to make ends meet.

It’s like the perfect storm. All the factors coming together to create a perfect storm.

I’ve barely scratched the surface on this.
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It really shows you where our community’s priorities are. 😦
 
I find it interesting that the Orthodox Jewish communities and traditional Mormons who still have 7+ plus children share many characteristics. They marry young, with the expectation they will bear many children. Their tight knit religious communities provide a great deal of material help when needed. The Orthodox jews have ministries where a young woman can come and choose a wedding dress from a large selection of donated dresses. Many parts of the wedding: food, tables and chairs etc. will be donated. Then when children come along there are “stores” of donated clothes and baby items etc. etc. so a young family on a low income can still survive and thrive.

The Mormon have “supermarkets” which are up market food banks. With a letter from the bishop they can visit as often as they need (non Mormons can also access these resources).

www.google.com

Salt Lake City offers glimpse of socialism, Mormon-style

Utah has one of the nation’s lowest rates of income inequality in part because of the Church of Latter-day Saints’ welfare system, but it also ranks dead last for economic equality for women
www.google.com www.google.com
 
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