I
izoid
Guest
You do understand that Adam and his Calvinist friends look very unfavorably on the Catholic Church don’t you? Have you read any of the articles at the site he points you too, monergism? They are very anti-Catholic.
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tweetymom
Guest
I really don’t care and I have not read that he has a very unfavorable osition, just that He doesn’t agree with everything and sometimes I don’t either. So now you can get on my case! Did you read my post before in what I believe in, maybe you should! God Bless you too and I have nothing but Christ’s love for you.
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izoid
Guest
Wow, that was hostile. I was simply pointing out that his favorite website is filled with anti Catholic articles. I in no way was saying anything about you, sorry you took it that way. I am not your enemy, I am a fellow Catholic who was once in a theological system very similar to Adam’s. I was just saying that no one should be naive about what he thinks of Catholicism.I really don’t care and I have not read that he has a very unfavorable osition, just that He doesn’t agree with everything and sometimes I don’t either. So now you can get on my case! Did you read my post before in what I believe in, maybe you should! God Bless you too and I have nothing but Christ’s love for you.
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izoid
Guest
Quote from this “Godly, gifted pastor” whom you thank God for.
There’s a lot that could be said about Roman Catholic theology. We could expose its errors, which are numerous; we could talk about its sources of revelation or divine truth that are outside the pages of scripture, or we could talk about the corruption of the mass. We could talk about the idea that Mary is the co-redemptrix which, of course, is really a blasphemous concept. We could talk about the idea that God is a tough guy, and if anybody wants grace out of God, it’s only Jesus who could get it from Him; but you can’t expect to go to Jesus because He’s pretty tough himself, so you need to go to Mary, because nobody can resist his mother. And so she’ll talk to Him and he’ll talk to the father, and Mary will get you what you need, or some saint. We could talk a lot about those things; concepts of purgatory, concepts of the sinlessness of Mary, the virgin birth of Mary, a lot of things about Catholic theology that we could speak about; most notably their erroneous doctrine of justification, which cuts people off from the kingdom of God. But what I want to talk about is the scandal of the priesthood, and give you some sense of what the priesthood really is all about.
Taken form: biblebb.com/files/MAC/catholicscandal.htm
I
izoid
Guest
One more, taken from MacArthur’s own website:
As long as the Roman Catholic Church continues to assert its own authority and bind its people to “another gospel,” it is the spiritual duty of all true Christians to oppose Roman Catholic doctrine with biblical truth and to call all Catholics to true salvation. Meanwhile, evangelicals must not capitulate to the pressures for artificial unity. They cannot allow the gospel to be obscured, and they cannot make friends with false religion, lest they become partakers in their evil deeds (2 John 11).
Adapted from John MacArthur, Reckless Faith: When the Church Loses Its Will to Discern (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1994). For a fuller treatment of Roman Catholicism, consult this resource. © 2002 Grace Community Church. All rights reserved
The full article can be viewed here: gty.org/media/pdf/Roman_Catholicism.pdf
As long as the Roman Catholic Church continues to assert its own authority and bind its people to “another gospel,” it is the spiritual duty of all true Christians to oppose Roman Catholic doctrine with biblical truth and to call all Catholics to true salvation. Meanwhile, evangelicals must not capitulate to the pressures for artificial unity. They cannot allow the gospel to be obscured, and they cannot make friends with false religion, lest they become partakers in their evil deeds (2 John 11).
Adapted from John MacArthur, Reckless Faith: When the Church Loses Its Will to Discern (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1994). For a fuller treatment of Roman Catholicism, consult this resource. © 2002 Grace Community Church. All rights reserved
The full article can be viewed here: gty.org/media/pdf/Roman_Catholicism.pdf
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fhansen
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Tweety, most Christians, of all stripes, can say what you say about having a simple faith. The Catholic Church correctly delivered the basic message God had for mankind for centuries, so that my Italian grandmother, born essentially an illiterate peasant woman in the foothills of the Alps in the late 19th century, could have the kind of faith you speak of. The challenge came from, and continues to come from, “Reformers” who, like Adam, question basic doctrines of our faith and claim to have a superior take on things, to the extent that Reformers early on-over 500 years ago- as well as Mormons 150+ years ago, either thought that the CC was the antichrist or at least so corrupt in doctrine that totally new churches were in order to rectify the situation-and that’s just history which continues on with every new denomination that adds to the disunity already present in the Christian world.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
There you go again, trying to put words in my mouth. There are Protestants who disagree with John MacArthur in regards to the Catholic Faith. Heck, the Protestant Bible Answer Man Hank Hanigraft considers Catholics to be in the same family of God in Christ. JI Packer is a staunch gifted Reformed theologian who signed ECT 1 and ECT II. Chuck Colson is one of the main Protestant behind ECT 1 and ECT II, and he credits RC Sproul for his conversion. I believe Colson is probably Reformed. I have laid my cards on the tables several times.
I believe in remnant theology, that there are converted Christians in Protestant, Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox churches. There are unconverted goats in all branches of Christianity. I am a Christian first, Evangelical second and a Calvinist third. I adhere to the 5 solas of the protestant reformation, forensic justification, imputation, and penal substitution. I believe all Christians know in part and God saves sinners through Christ regardless of our doctrinal errors, I do believe in the invisible church and the visible church. I am here to enjoy fellowship with other Christians, and to encourage each other to grow our love and affection for our Triune God. I’m sorry you had a bad experience through Protestantism, and I’m glad you are a happy Catholic Christian. Oh BTW, I enjoy listening to Catholic radio when I’m working near Portland. If you are more like minded with Zee the Mormon than myself, then that’s your free will choice.
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izoid
Guest
I am not saying that we are not brothers in Christ. What I am saying is that some of the men that you feel are Godly men and direct us to read have very low views of the Catholic Church.
Do you believe that the Catholic Church teaches the truth that leads it’s members to salvation? Are the Catholic Churches teachings Biblical and sound?
I
izoid
Guest
My experiences in Protestantism was certainly not what I would call negative or “bad”. In fact, I met God there, I read scriptures, studied and taught the things of God. I had the priveledge of being the full time Children’s Pastor in a great church for 2 1/2 years. Hardly a bad experience.
One thing that I never did do was to tell Cathlics that I embraced them as brothers and sisters in Christ and then tell them that John MacArthur was a Godly teacher and direct them to his articles. I was very clear on how I felt and had no problem condemning those who believed differently, Catholics included.
In my recent search for a new church here in Georgia I decided to see which Protestant denomination was closest to the 1st century church. I read church history, protestant history books that is. I read scripture and I prayed. I then read the early church fathers from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries. I quickly found that none of these men propsed a form of Christianity that resembled my Protestant beliefs. It was very clear that these men were Catholic, the same Catholics as today’s Catholic Curch.
I spent many weeks dialoging with my protestant friends. I bought every anti Catholic apologetic that I could find. Guess what? No one was able to explain the verses that I listed for you earlier in this thread. They all directed me to the same verses that you have while ignoring all others that might have supported the Catholic view. The answers simply weren’t there.
No my friend, I did not have a bad experience, just a partial experience. I can now say that in the Catholic Church my Christian faith is complete. All of the graces that God desires for me are now available to me. My faith has been made whole.
One thing that I never did do was to tell Cathlics that I embraced them as brothers and sisters in Christ and then tell them that John MacArthur was a Godly teacher and direct them to his articles. I was very clear on how I felt and had no problem condemning those who believed differently, Catholics included.
In my recent search for a new church here in Georgia I decided to see which Protestant denomination was closest to the 1st century church. I read church history, protestant history books that is. I read scripture and I prayed. I then read the early church fathers from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries. I quickly found that none of these men propsed a form of Christianity that resembled my Protestant beliefs. It was very clear that these men were Catholic, the same Catholics as today’s Catholic Curch.
I spent many weeks dialoging with my protestant friends. I bought every anti Catholic apologetic that I could find. Guess what? No one was able to explain the verses that I listed for you earlier in this thread. They all directed me to the same verses that you have while ignoring all others that might have supported the Catholic view. The answers simply weren’t there.
No my friend, I did not have a bad experience, just a partial experience. I can now say that in the Catholic Church my Christian faith is complete. All of the graces that God desires for me are now available to me. My faith has been made whole.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Of course, there is much history between the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Church. The Westminster Confession of Faith states the Pope is in the spirit of the anti-Christ which is an understandable statement when the framers wrote the WCF. The Council of Trent is quite clear what the Catholic Church believed in regards to historic Protestants. Actually, the Council of Trent is more condemning than the WCF. There is no way Pope Benedict could have taught on justification by faith alone as posted in my signature in another generation. Within Protestant communities and Catholic communities, there is a large range on what members of our respective communities believe about others in opposing Christian communities. I have never hidden the fact that I adhere to the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, or a forensic justification. However, does that mean that those who do not agree with me on those essential issues are outside the family of God in Christ? Even RC Sproul teaches that there are members in the Catholic Church who are in the invisible church, but outside the visible church since the Catholic Church does not meet the Westminster Confession of Faith’s definition of a true visible church. The Catholic Church does that same juggling act regarding Protestant communities and conceding that Protestants are separated brethrens, and still holding to the claim of being the One True Church. True ecumenism within Christendom will always cause tension and requires a juggling act. Interpert my icons if you can.
:knight2::slapfight: :blackeye::flowers::hug1::harp:
I
izoid
Guest
You must agree that it is a hard thing to accept when someone who did not exist, protestants, for 1500 years come along and claim to be the true church. Catholicism has always been, prtestantism has only been for around 500 years.Of course, there is much history between the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Church. The Westminster Confession of Faith states the Pope is in the spirit of the anti-Christ which is an understandable statement when the framers wrote the WCF. The Council of Trent is quite clear what the Catholic Church believed in regards to historic Protestants. There is no way Pope Benedict could have taught on justification by faith alone as posted in my signature in another generation. Within Protestant communities and Catholic communities, there is a large range on what members of our respective communities believe about others in opposing Christian communities. I have never hidden the fact that I adhere to the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, or a forensic justification. However, does that mean that those who do not agree with me on those essential issues are outside the family of God in Christ? Even RC Sproul that there are members in the Catholic Church who are in the invisible church, but outside the visible church since the Catholic Church does not meet the Westminster Confession of Faith’s definition of a true church. The Catholic Church does that same juggling act regarding Protestant communities and conceding that Protestants are separated brethrens, and still holding to the claim of being the One True Church. True ecumenism within Christendom will always cause tension and requires a juggling act. Interpert my icons if you can.
So what do you think, does the Catholic Church teach the truth or are saved Catholics saved despite the teachings of the church?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
By divine providence you are on the right thread to answer your own question; the central issue is the sufficiency of Christ as defined by adoption through propitiation. I seem to agree with good old Bible Answer Man - Hank Hanigraft in regards to discerning the Catholic Faith. He stated something like this… the Catholic Church is not a cult, and members can find Jesus in the Catholic Church… but it’s more difficult because of the various teachings (very loose paraphrase heard maybe 10 years ago). Now please answer my question. Do you believe John MacArthur is a false teacher?
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izoid
Guest
I used to take the bus to work and home every day. I would listen to Hank Hannegraf, the Bible Answer Man, every day. It is funny that you mention him. When I had come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the true church I looked to see what Hank had to say on the matter.
I answered you on Zee, you have to answer me. Does the Catholic Church teach truth or not? Once you give a clear answer to that I will answer about MacArthur.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Of course the Catholic Church teaches much truth. We share many of the same historic creeds and confessions, unlike Mormonism.I used to take the bus to work and home every day. I would listen to Hank Hannegraf, the Bible Answer Man, every day. It is funny that you mention him. When I had come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the true church I looked to see what Hank had to say on the matter.
I answered you on Zee, you have to answer me. Does the Catholic Church teach truth or not? Once you give a clear answer to that I will answer about MacArthur.
I
izoid
Guest
Much truth? Is the teaching on Justification true?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I clearly believe in a forensic justification, and imputation. However, how many contemporary Protestants even know what those terms mean? God saves sinners through Christ. He does not save us by perfect theology. Does the Catholic Church teach that my view is heretical? Of course she does, but she also calls me a seperated brother.
I disagree with the Catholic Church mainly with
- Justification
- Authority
I
izoid
Guest
If I understand correctly, I am not trying to put workd in your mouth, there are saved Catholics because they are a part of the remnant. This salvation is despite the churches teachings on justification which you believe are incorrect?
Do you believe that upon salvation we are actually cleansed or just pronounced clean? My understanding of forensic justification is that it is a declaration of righteousness but not actually being made righteous. Musch like a judge passing a sentance.
Regarding John MacArthur, I don’t really know what I think. I do think he is an angry individual, is this righteous anger I don’t know. He is hostile to those that do not believe as he does, even other protestants. I think he teaches scripture according to his own interpretation, which I find some fault in. Example: In Acts when Peter says, “be baptized for the forgiveness of sins”, MacArthur translates the word that is used “for” as “because of”. This Greek word is used over 1700 times in Scripture and not once is it translated “because of”. Why did he twist that, I can’t answer. Jojn MacArthur can be and is very hostile to those that do not believe as he does. Does that make him a false teacher? I don’t know.
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2nd_Adam
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tweetymom
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Guess I am simple minded old lady. I don’t even know or have ever heard of all these people. I was raiesed a half way Catholic thanks to my Mexican grandmother who I am sure never heard of all the do’s don’ts about the Catholic Church. She lived a Christian life and I know without a shadow of a doubt where she is. My parents were divorced. She taught me to pray and go to Mass.
I was a Protestant for at least 30 years of my life and learned more than I ever had I accepted Jesus when I was 35 and let me tell you it was wonderful! I learned more about the CC in Protestant Bible study than I ever heard anywhere and it is what made me come back to the Church of my childhood.
Do I agree with everything the Church teaches, no. And let me say that in all my years as a Protestant I never heard any negative about the Catholic Church.
So here I am and I am happy un the Lord and I feel that most of the time He is happy with me. I am not going to critize Adam because he is my brother in Christ and I agree with him on many things, even tho I am a Catholic!!!
I was a Protestant for at least 30 years of my life and learned more than I ever had I accepted Jesus when I was 35 and let me tell you it was wonderful! I learned more about the CC in Protestant Bible study than I ever heard anywhere and it is what made me come back to the Church of my childhood.
Do I agree with everything the Church teaches, no. And let me say that in all my years as a Protestant I never heard any negative about the Catholic Church.
So here I am and I am happy un the Lord and I feel that most of the time He is happy with me. I am not going to critize Adam because he is my brother in Christ and I agree with him on many things, even tho I am a Catholic!!!
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zerinus
Guest
Matthew 7:
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 23:
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
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