"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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Rocket_Man said:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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Amen!

[SIGN]Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life within you![/SIGN]
 
PRmerger said:
Amen!

[SIGN]Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life within you![/SIGN]
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And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
Rocket_Man said:
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
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Do you believe Jesus gave “symbolic” blood on the cross?
Rocket_Man said:
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
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The Apostles taught this is a refernce to baptism. 👍
Rocket_Man said:
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
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We are united with Him in His death through baptism.
 
Rocket_Man said:
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
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Amen!

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Rocket_Man said:
Did you know that having received twelve years of Catholic education, I never once had a Bible 101 class? A dead baptism I did recieve, but never that which could bring a man to life through the Spirit.
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No, but it is certainly a sad commentary about the state of Catholic education at that time. I flunked out of Catholic school (incompatible deportment) so I was spared the charade. However, the catechism for students not in Catholic School was not any better.

There is no such thing as a “dead baptism” Rocket. I will concede that it seems to have been along time between when you were sealed with the promised HS, and you actually became aware of who you are in Christ, but I cannot agree that anything God does is “dead”.

Remember that David was annointed almost two decades before he became king. He was annoined God’s chosen king all that time, but did not come into his inheritance for many years.
 
Originally Posted by Rocket_Man
Did you know that having received twelve years of Catholic education, I never once had a Bible 101 class? A dead baptism I did recieve, but never that which could bring a man to life through the Spirit
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guanophore said:
No, but it is certainly a sad commentary about the state of Catholic education at that time. I flunked out of Catholic school (incompatible deportment) so I was spared the charade. However, the catechism for students not in Catholic School was not any better.

There is no such thing as a “dead baptism” Rocket. I will concede that it seems to have been along time between when you were sealed with the promised HS, and you actually became aware of who you are in Christ, but I cannot agree that anything God does is “dead”.

Remember that David was annointed almost two decades before he became king. He was annoined God’s chosen king all that time, but did not come into his inheritance for many years.
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This testimony which seems common with other Catholics too, appears to challenge the Catholic doctrine of baptismal regeneration. I even heard a Priest teach on a Catholic radio station which also hosted Catholic Answers, teach that adult Catholics had to be converted, even though they were baptized as infants.
 
2nd_Adam said:
This testimony which seems common with other Catholics too, appears to challenge the Catholic doctrine of baptismal regeneration. I even heard a Priest teach on a Catholic radio station which also hosted Catholic Answers, teach that adult Catholics had to be converted, even though they were baptized as infants.
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Yes. Anyone who has worked in any level of catechesis or ministry will confirm that the vast majority of cradle catholics need evangelism. It is a reflection of poor catechesis in the Church, as well as the abrogation of baptismal vows by parents. Parents give their promise to God to raise their children in the faith when they bring them for baptism. When they fail to do so, it harms the child, the church, the community, and themselves, as they will have to give an account to God for giving a "yes’ that was not a “yes”.

CAF is very useful to these poorly catechized cradle Catholics. EWTN is also an excellent resource. 100% Catholic, 100% of the time. No wishy washy lukewarm stuff there.

I would challenge any Catholic who thought they were not regenerated at baptism to try the Catechism with Fr. John Corapi. After that, we will talk!
 
guanophore said:
Yes. Anyone who has worked in any level of catechesis or ministry will confirm that the vast majority of cradle catholics need evangelism. It is a reflection of poor catechesis in the Church, as well as the abrogation of baptismal vows by parents. Parents give their promise to God to raise their children in the faith when they bring them for baptism. When they fail to do so, it harms the child, the church, the community, and themselves, as they will have to give an account to God for giving a "yes’ that was not a “yes”.

CAF is very useful to these poorly catechized cradle Catholics. EWTN is also an excellent resource. 100% Catholic, 100% of the time. No wishy washy lukewarm stuff there.

I would challenge any Catholic who thought they were not regenerated at baptism to try the Catechism with Fr. John Corapi. After that, we will talk!
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That’s a very interesting post. The Westminster Confession of Faith is very similar to your posting in regards to your comment about infant baptism.
 
Rocket_Man said:
of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.
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Do you also see it guan? A big Catholic Amen?

Yes, I will give this my AMEN! 👍
 
2nd_Adam said:
That’s a very interesting post. The Westminster Confession of Faith is very similar to your posting in regards to your comment about infant baptism.
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There is an astonishing degree of Apostolic Teaching retained in the Westminster, given the strong desire to jettison all that was Catholic.
 
guanophore said:
No, but it is certainly a sad commentary about the state of Catholic education at that time. I flunked out of Catholic school (incompatible deportment) so I was spared the charade. However, the catechism for students not in Catholic School was not any better.

There is no such thing as a “dead baptism” Rocket. I will concede that it seems to have been along time between when you were sealed with the promised HS, and you actually became aware of who you are in Christ, but I cannot agree that anything God does is “dead”.

Remember that David was annointed almost two decades before he became king. He was annoined God’s chosen king all that time, but did not come into his inheritance for many years.
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Yes,and I rather think many who rec’d many years of catechizes did get it in the head, the problem I suspect ,they were beating it to another place before it had a chance to reach the heart where it has gotta be.Carlan
 
guanophore said:
Yes. Anyone who has worked in any level of catechesis or ministry will confirm that the vast majority of cradle catholics need evangelism. It is a reflection of poor catechesis in the Church, as well as the abrogation of baptismal vows by parents. Parents give their promise to God to raise their children in the faith when they bring them for baptism. When they fail to do so, it harms the child, the church, the community, and themselves, as they will have to give an account to God for giving a "yes’ that was not a “yes”.

CAF is very useful to these poorly catechized cradle Catholics. EWTN is also an excellent resource. 100% Catholic, 100% of the time. No wishy washy lukewarm stuff there.

I would challenge any Catholic who thought they were not regenerated at baptism to try the Catechism with Fr. John Corapi. After that, we will talk!
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Catholic Christians are not the only Christians guilty of this. In my opinion it happens amongst the separated Churchs every bit as much. Carlan
 
2nd_Adam said:
This testimony which seems common with other Catholics too, appears to challenge the Catholic doctrine of baptismal regeneration. I even heard a Priest teach on a Catholic radio station which also hosted Catholic Answers, teach that adult Catholics had to be converted, even though they were baptized as infants.
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THis problem is certainly not limited to the Catholic Church. Look at divorce rates, adultery, fornication, etc., in any denomination. This is a serious issue and does not adhere to any denominational label.
 
guanophore said:
Parents give their promise to God to raise their children in the faith when they bring them for baptism. When they fail to do so, it harms the child, the church, the community, and themselves, as they will have to give an account to God for giving a "yes’ that was not a “yes”.
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They will claim that they also were not regenerated. My parents will stand with me and claim that their infant baptism and mine was meaningless. And where were my baptismal sponsers, I haven’t even met them? Why, because they weren’t serious about thier commitment as they weren’t regenerated either. The whole system is flawed.
 
guanophore said:
Yes. Anyone who has worked in any level of catechesis or ministry will confirm that the vast majority of cradle catholics need evangelism. It is a reflection of poor catechesis in the Church, as well as the abrogation of baptismal vows by parents. Parents give their promise to God to raise their children in the faith when they bring them for baptism. When they fail to do so, it harms the child, the church, the community, and themselves, as they will have to give an account to God for giving a "yes’ that was not a “yes”.

CAF is very useful to these poorly catechized cradle Catholics. EWTN is also an excellent resource. 100% Catholic, 100% of the time. No wishy washy lukewarm stuff there.

I would challenge any Catholic who thought they were not regenerated at baptism to try the Catechism with Fr. John Corapi. After that, we will talk!
Click to expand...
As a cradle Catholic I have often stated on CAF that many converts know their catholic faith better than cradle Catholic for the reason given in Guan post. While I do not believe the system is flawed I do believe those Catholics that promised to raise their children/godchild catholic did not take their faith seriously and thus did not do what they promised for the Child, For God, and for the church. Think it is awful to promise God something then not deliver but this also happens in many marriage today also. Baptism in the first for believers in the initiation into the faith but they must grow in the faith and if baptized as an infant then it is the parents job to help in this growth as the early church parents/godparents took so seriously as part of their job. I hope more parents/godparents will take this seriously in the future and not just leave it up to the church to try to do while maybe only seeing this child once or twice a week.
You are right Fr. Corpi is wonderful to listen too and pulls no punches on the truth, I have learned allot here in CAF and I watch EWTN and also have refreshed my memory with some thing I learned as a child in Catholic grade school that as a child I did not think important.
 
Rocket_Man said:
They will claim that they also were not regenerated. My parents will stand with me and claim that their infant baptism and mine was meaningless. And where were my baptismal sponsers, I haven’t even met them? Why, because they weren’t serious about thier commitment as they weren’t regenerated either. The whole system is flawed.
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So if that is what you and your family claim, take responsibility for it, don’t blame the Church and it’s truth for your denial of it.Carlan
 
Carlan said:
So if that is what you and your family claim, take responsibility for it, don’t blame the Church and it’s truth for your denial of it.Carlan
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“This sacrament is the door of the Church of Christ and the entrance into a new life. We are reborn from the state of slaves of sin into the freedom of the Sons of God. Baptism incorporates us with Christ’s mystical body and makes us partakers of all the privileges flowing from the redemptive act of the Church’s Divine Founder.”*

We take full responsibilty for our sins before regeneration and after. However for all of us regeneration did not begin with the Catholic baptism. Rather, it began after we left the church and learned of Jesus Christ through His Living Word.
 
guanophore said:
There is an astonishing degree of Apostolic Teaching retained in the Westminster, given the strong desire to jettison all that was Catholic.
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Well, you know… God always has his remnant chosen by grace in each generation of redemptive history.
 
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