The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m just stating my opinion on my observance of Tradtional Priests and they don’t fit in the category you guys place them in. **I wasn’t talking about a category, I was talking about a specific event that occured in time, in history. I was sober and alert, taking it all in, this having been my first TLM Mass. **

Second since my remarks hurt you both gravely, I think you would understand then, how I felt when you implied I was in a Jim Jones Cult, protrayed me as idiot to several people while destorting the true facts and last early on being called an heretic and promoting heresy by Kirk. I didn’t take it personal, just ask you to stop, got no support from the moderators. If you want to play grade school bullying, I don’t think this is the place for it or charitable as a Catholic and deters from speaking about the topic. This seems to be the trend on all the threads with you guys. Its no wonder why most traditionalists have you guys on ignore… And that is what I’m doing, I don’t enjoy this, it is crazy.

**Where did I call you a heretic? Please provide a link, if I was wrong, I’ll apologize. **

 

[bear06]

I’m just stating my opinion on my observance of Tradtional Priests and they don’t fit in the category you guys place them in. .

I don’t think I said Traditional priests, I said SSPX priests but I imagine you already know that. Those are two different things. I LOVE our traditional priest at our parish. He’s awesome and has never said anything negative about the TLM - something I already said too.

Second since my remarks hurt you both gravely, I think you would understand then, how I felt when you implied I was in a Jim Jones Cult, protrayed me as idiot to several people while destorting the true facts and last early on being called an heretic and promoting heresy by Kirk.

 

[DustinsDad]

Sorry, DD, you’re getting desperate…thank you for this lovely little scenic trip through the land of “irrelevant to the topic”).

Your welcome. Bulk and bile duly noted.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JKirkLVNV]

As I said in my post you are responding to - and I’ll try to make it even more clear now and I’ll put it as nicely as I can:

My observations of JKirk’s posts on this discussion board leads me to believe that he is hypersensitive to any critique any aspect of the NO missal, hypercritical of traditional catholic positions and often misrepresents them, and often jumps ahead of what people are actually saying to argue against radical - often sedevacantist - positions…This rather than discuss what loyal and faithful catholics should be able to discuss without going nuts. Given this, I find it entirely possible that ol’ JKirk may have read more into the priests comments than were actually there.

Who knows? This is the Internet after all. I’ll keep that grain of salt if you don’t mind.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I’ve said it more than once. The NO Mass was part of what wooed me into the Church. That isn’t to say that it, like any liturgy, isn’t subject to an honest critique. But, Dustin’s Dad, you’re one of the ones who’s heaped derision on the Church! Not constructive criticism, but derision! There is an objective difference. I challenge ANYONE to go back through your posts and see it. Then look at mine. I’ve jumped people, yes, sometimes pretty bad, but for THAT, for the derision and contempt and the smug arrogance. I’m not proud of how sarcastic and petty I can be, but I think there’s a difference.

And once again: I was sober, in my right mind, paying attention. He said abomination…twice. Think what you will. As I said, God knows the truth and my conscience is clear.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Your welcome. Bulk and bile duly noted.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Please…I’m not the one who called anyone a liar.

 

[bear06]

My observations of JKirk’s posts on this discussion board leads me to believe that he is hypersensitive to any critique any aspect of the NO missal, hypercritical of traditional catholic positions and often misrepresents them, and often jumps ahead of what people are actually saying to argue against radical - often sedevacantist - positions…This rather than discuss what loyal and faithful catholics should be able to discuss without going nuts. Given this, I find it entirely possible that ol’ JKirk may have read more into the priests comments than were actually there.

Come on now, DD. You can’t figure out why Kirk thinks you called him a liar?! What the heck is a misrepresentation?! Really, if you’re going to make charges that he’s "hypersensitive to any critique any aspect of the NO missal, hypercritical of traditional catholic positions and often misrepresents them, and often jumps ahead of what people are actually saying to argue against radical - often sedevacantist - positions… " you could at least cut and paste some of the comments he’s made that would lead you to believe this. Otherwise, this whole conversation comes off as “Don’t listen to Kirk, he’s a liar.” I think if you honestly searched the forums, you’d find that Kirk has no trouble with traditional Catholic positions. He definitely has trouble with radical traditionalist postitions and so do I.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You know, my defense of myself against what Dustin’s Dad said may have come off a bit whiney. I apologize for that. I think that if anyone wants to see the differences between us, one only has to go back and look at our posts. I’d invite anyone to do so.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

ihsv.com/suicide-liturgy.html

The one paragraph that struck me was:

Liturgy was never really questioned until after Vatican II. Why so? Because four centuries of people didn’t know any better?

To return this to the original topic:

The faith hasn’t been altered.

I must say, with links to sites like the SSPX, the Transapline Redemptorists, the St. Benedict Center, Tradition in Action (an extremely sensationalistic site that plays fast and loose with the facts) and Novus Ordo Watch (itself frankly Sedevacantist), this isn’t where I would seek out information. Rather sad, they don’t seem to provide a link to the Holy See.

 

[DustinsDad]

I’ve said it more than once. The NO Mass was part of what wooed me into the Church. That isn’t to say that it, like any liturgy, isn’t subject to an honest critique.

Well that’s great then.

A little about me so you know where I’m coming from. I’m 37 and so was born into the NO mass. After being an idiot and away from the Church for many years ('nuff said), by the grace of God and the prayers of many, I came back home roughly 14 years ago. Fell in love with the faith - including the mass, the Eucharist, the Sacraments, etc…all that goes with our great faith. And a special thanks to the folks God used to help me in the faith - the folks here at Catholic Answers, Fr. Corapi, EWTN, the good solid priests I was blessed to know and be taught and pastored by, devout parents who have been daily communicants for as long as I can remember.

I also think I’m honest enough to recognize that there is a crisis going on in the church right now and has been since I was a young’n. I’ve seen my share of abuses and the lack of catechesis and just plain bad catechesis, and the subsequent ill-effects of such in my community, my country, my family, etc.

Nowthen, I didn’t know the TLM until a just a few years ago going to a TLM out of curiosity and kept going back until I fell head over heals in love with it for all the reasons I’m sure you’ve heard before. Wasn’t able to attend regularly until about a year and half ago. I’ve also fallen in love with so much of what you would call “traditionalism” - but to me it’s just plain Catholicism, the One True Church founded by Christ - timeless, bold, clear and concise.

Questions, good and honest questions, are raised by those you would call “traditionalists” - and quite frankly, I think the questions and concerns are too often dismissed out of hand or distorted or both. As if actually addressing them is too “scary” or “offensive” for some folks and for some reason. Frustrating indeed.

But, Dustin’s Dad, you’re one of the ones who’s heaped derision on the Church! Not constructive criticism, but derision! There is an objective difference. I challenge ANYONE to go back through your posts and see it.

I challenge you to - please point such an example out to me. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

Then look at mine. I’ve jumped people, yes, sometimes pretty bad, but for THAT, for the derision and contempt and the smug arrogance. I’m not proud of how sarcastic and petty I can be, but I think there’s a difference…

This is that “hyperdefensive” aspect I was talking about. You see yourself as attacking derision, contempt and smug arrogance…have you ever thought that perhaps you are demonstrating it? A question we can all ask ourselves - myself included.

And once again: I was sober, in my right mind, paying attention. He said abomination…twice. Think what you will. As I said, God knows the truth and my conscience is clear

Fine, you’ve convinced me. I’ll take your word for it. Perhaps he was talking about NO abuses and not the NO itself

Peace in Christ - really!

DustinsDAD

 

[DustinsDad]

…you could at least cut and paste some of the comments he’s made that would lead you to believe this.

It’s easy enough to do search for his (and my) posts. Anyone can do it and decide for themselves. I’m not up to cutting and pasting several posts in a series to demonstrate what I’m taking about - to much work that can be accomplished by simply searching for posts from said author.

…I think if you honestly searched the forums, you’d find that Kirk has no trouble with traditional Catholic positions. He definitely has trouble with radical traditionalist postitions and so do I…

I’ve honetly been reading these forums for some time, and I disagree with you. But then what I think is a traditional Catholic position, you and JKirk might very well think is a “radical” traditionalist position. Oy,

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well that’s great then.

A little about me so you know where I’m coming from. I’m 37 and so was born into the NO mass. After being an idiot and away from the Church for many years ('nuff said), by the grace of God and the prayers of many, I came back home roughly 14 years ago. Fell in love with the faith - including the mass, the Eucharist, the Sacraments, etc…all that goes with our great faith. And a special thanks to the folks God used to help me in the faith - the folks here at Catholic Answers, Fr. Corapi, EWTN, the good solid priests I was blessed to know and be taught and pastored by, devout parents who have been daily communicants for as long as I can remember. That’s great, DD, I mean it, I’m glad.

I also think I’m honest enough to recognize that there is a crisis going on in the church right now and has been since I was a young’n. I’ve seen my share of abuses and the lack of catechesis and just plain bad catechesis, and the subsequent ill-effects of such in my community, my country, my family, etc. **We’re on the same page. This is what I believe Pope Paul VI meant when he spoke of the “smoke of Satan.” The problem comes when we seek to apportion responsibility or blame. I don’t believe that this is the fault of the Church, or the popes, and I certainly don’t believe that it’s the fault of the Mass. I think it’s how some things have intruded into the Church from the world. If people wanted to make an argument that the sensitive, tenuous time after the council made this intrusion possible, then I would say that’s a sensible argument (that isn’t what’s said, however). If people want to argue that the Council was poorly implented, great. When people complain about abuse, I’m right there. When they confuse the abuse of the Mass WITH the Mass, I’ve a problem with that. As a traditional Catholic, and I’m saying that without a trace of irony or sarcasm, I truly believe that the Church cannot lead the faithful into deception, because that’s the way She was constituted by the Savior. I believe nothing is lacking in relation to the fullness of faith in the NO Mass because that’s what I believe about the CHURCH Herself. And THAT’S what I’m defending. **

Nowthen, I didn’t know the TLM until a just a few years ago going to a TLM out of curiosity and kept going back until I fell head over heals in love with it for all the reasons I’m sure you’ve heard before. Wasn’t able to attend regularly until about a year and half ago. I’ve also fallen in love with so much of what you would call “traditionalism” - but to me it’s just plain Catholicism, the One True Church founded by Christ - timeless, bold, clear and concise. **Let me be clear: when you see me write “traditionalism,” it’s actually a distinguishing between faithful Catholics who have an attachment to the TLM and others who have an axe to grind against the Church. I don’t object to traditionalism, I object to "traditionalism.’ I think you know the difference. Examples: I object not to those who state that the Pauline Mass was constructed by Anibale Bugnnini, I object to those who buy into the notion that he was a mason, despite the Holy See’s denial of that. I object to the idea that the Mass has been protestantized, again because of what I believe about the Church (she cannot protest against herself). I object to the assertion that the Protestant observers helped write the Mass, when there is no objective evidence that they did. I object to the constant, niggling, hen-pecking, nagging contempt to which some subject the Church. **

I’ll have to respond to the rest latter, but while I appreciate the tone of your reply, I firmly believe that the objective reader, looking back at BOTH of our posts, would see what I’m talking about. I’m not saying I’ve been anyone’s prize pig, but I stand by that challenge. Let them look through the posts.

 

[BobP123]

That is true and the fruits are often compared with those of Trent. But even Trent, a great and most necessary milestone in the Church did not produce fruits instantaneously . Some decrees were not implmente duntil 200 years after. 20-30 years after it, there was apostasy among bishops in Germany! You can hardly blame that on Trent.

Maybe some of Trent’s best fruits began appearing 400 years later, when more people began to appreciate it?

 

[BobP123]

As I said in my post you are responding to - and I’ll try to make it even more clear now and I’ll put it as nicely as I can:

My observations of JKirk’s posts on this discussion board leads me to believe that he is hypersensitive to any critique any aspect of the NO missal, hypercritical of traditional catholic positions and often misrepresents them, and often jumps ahead of what people are actually saying to argue against radical - often sedevacantist - positions…This rather than discuss what loyal and faithful catholics should be able to discuss without going nuts. Given this, I find it entirely possible that ol’ JKirk may have read more into the priests comments than were actually there.

Who knows? This is the Internet after all. I’ll keep that grain of salt if you don’t mind.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Methinks people like him ought to go posting on some Protestant boards and see what’s it really like to try to defend that so-called Magisterium of his.

 

[BobP123]

Well that’s great then.

A little about me so you know where I’m coming from. I’m 37 and so was born into the NO mass. After being an idiot and away from the Church for many years ('nuff said), by the grace of God and the prayers of many, I came back home roughly 14 years ago. Fell in love with the faith - including the mass, the Eucharist, the Sacraments, etc…all that goes with our great faith. And a special thanks to the folks God used to help me in the faith - the folks here at Catholic Answers, Fr. Corapi, EWTN, the good solid priests I was blessed to know and be taught and pastored by, devout parents who have been daily communicants for as long as I can remember.

I also think I’m honest enough to recognize that there is a crisis going on in the church right now and has been since I was a young’n. I’ve seen my share of abuses and the lack of catechesis and just plain bad catechesis, and the subsequent ill-effects of such in my community, my country, my family, etc.

Nowthen, I didn’t know the TLM until a just a few years ago going to a TLM out of curiosity and kept going back until I fell head over heals in love with it for all the reasons I’m sure you’ve heard before. Wasn’t able to attend regularly until about a year and half ago. I’ve also fallen in love with so much of what you would call “traditionalism” - but to me it’s just plain Catholicism, the One True Church founded by Christ - timeless, bold, clear and concise.

Questions, good and honest questions, are raised by those you would call “traditionalists” - and quite frankly, I think the questions and concerns are too often dismissed out of hand or distorted or both. As if actually addressing them is too “scary” or “offensive” for some folks and for some reason. Frustrating indeed.

I challenge you to - please point such an example out to me. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

This is that “hyperdefensive” aspect I was talking about. You see yourself as attacking derision, contempt and smug arrogance…have you ever thought that perhaps you are demonstrating it? A question we can all ask ourselves - myself included.

Fine, you’ve convinced me. I’ll take your word for it. Perhaps he was talking about NO abuses and not the NO itself

Peace in Christ - really!

DustinsDAD

I can’t see how the NO can woo anyone into the Church. There are Protestant services which are more reverent than many, if not most of, the NOs and have far less stricter rules on fasting, meat abstinence, kneeling, etc. (And I haven’t even addressed the real Church scandals of the last 40 years that I’ve had to defend.)

 

[Thursday1]

I can’t see how the NO can woo anyone into the Church. There are Protestant services which are more reverent than many, if not most of, the NOs and have far less stricter rules on fasting, meat abstinence, kneeling, etc. (And I haven’t even addressed the real Church scandals of the last 40 years that I’ve had to defend.)

The Sacrifice of Christ in the Mass isn’t enough to “woo” you?
wow, you’re a tough sell. . .

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[bear06]

It’s easy enough to do search for his (and my) posts. Anyone can do it and decide for themselves. I’m not up to cutting and pasting several posts in a series to demonstrate what I’m taking about - to much work that can be accomplished by simply searching for posts from said author.

If anyone can figure it out and decide for themselves, then let them. If you’re going to make and accusation, back it up. It’s all so simple.

Well, this has turned into another “you say potato, I say potato…” or a “I know you are but what am I?” thread. I suggest we call the whole thing off.:doh2:

 

[Jean_Anthony]

I can’t possibly go back to edit every post in which someone accused another or made a derogatory remark or was rude or insulting. We’re all adults here, people, so please refrain from making personal remarks in the threads.

Once again, if you have a complaint about another poster use the “report post” icon (the triangular one with the exclamation point in it) and let us moderators deal with such things. All you accomplish with your tit-for-tat posts is to take the thread off topic and create more heat than light.

I’ve had to close several threads for such behavior and I will not hesitate to do it again here. So, if you want to be able to discuss topics then abide by the rules and let us moderators deal with any complaints/problems.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[DustinsDad]

The Sacrifice of Christ in the Mass isn’t enough to “woo” you?
wow, you’re a tough sell. . .

Perhaps what the poster is referring to is not the Sacrifice of Christ in the mass - the Divine part that is always infinite and perfect…A point always to remember is that most critiqueing of the NO mass by traditional catholics is critiquing the “human side” of it.

Perhaps he is saying that liturgically speaking, the sacrificial nature of the mass is less explicitly presented and communicated to the faithful in the human side of things at the NO mass (i.e. the language of the texts, the gestures, etc.) and less effective at, as Trent said, “lifting man to the meditation of Divine things”.

It is not heretical or schismatic to have such concerns or opinions. It could just be a zeal for the glory of God and concern for His people, the Church. That such concerns could be voiced with more charity is granted. Clanging symbol and all that .

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

Well, this has turned into another “you say potato, I say potato…” or a “I know you are but what am I?” thread. I suggest we call the whole thing off.:doh2:

Exactly - which is why I’m not going to post series of other threads to demonstrate what I find obvious in simply reading through existing threads as is. Besides, it probably violates some rules or board ettiquette, so let’s do move on shall we?

Cool.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Methinks people like him ought to go posting on some Protestant boards and see what’s it really like to try to defend that so-called Magisterium of his.

So it isn’t your magisterium as well?