The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy

[Uxor]

No, but mine was licit.

If you are ever in London may I suggest: (they have a Paulian as well)
spanishplace.hemscott.net/pages/times_of_masses.htm

Or if you would like to see the most beautiful latin Mass said according to the Paulian Missal: (they also have a TLM)
bromptonoratory.com/index_files/Page351.htm

I have no reason to not trust what Kirk said. I know it is not common in indults (or even existent). But, if a priest is willing to put the eternal fate of his soul on the line, I tend to be a bit more suspicious.

So, come up with an answer to my questions yet?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

On the internet everyone says things they would not normally say in public. I think Kirk was a little angry and just maybe wanted to get a punch in.

But I do recall at my last NO Parish, we had a young Priest who was transferred a little while later, ridicule tradtionalists during his homily, I just sat there and thought to myself, where is this coming from? Then there was a mission about 6 months later. Three nights we heard in between this Priest’s lectures ridicule of traditionalists. I was taken a little back and confused to as his comments made and why they were needed.

Do you believe that?

 

[Thursday1]

On the internet everyone says things they would not normally say in public. I think Kirk was a little angry and just maybe wanted to get a punch in.

But I do recall at my last NO Parish, we had a young Priest who was transferred a little while later, ridicule tradtionalists during his homily, I just sat there and thought to myself, where is this coming from? Then there was a mission about 6 months later. Three nights we heard in between this Priest’s lectures ridicule of traditionalists. I was taken a little back and confused to as his comments made and why they were needed.

Do you believe that?

Yes I do. Are you surprised? I just said that priests are still human, and they can say some things are are neither appropriate, or true. You have seen this, why do you doubt a priest in the SSPX could do the same?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[Uxor]

Yes I do. Are you surprised? I just said that priests are still human, and they can say some things are are neither appropriate, or true. You have seen this, why do you doubt a priest in the SSPX could do the same?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

Priestst that are of Traditional Parishes I find are very humble, holy Priests. They are available to their parishers 24/7 and sacrifice greatly for the souls of their flock. That is their main concern the santification of each of their parishers. They are not bothered with, have no time or are concerned with Vatican II or the NO Mass.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m sorry I don’t believe you went to a TLM and heard the Priest railing against the Mother Church. All I have ever heard from the Priests at TLM is a stern teaching of the gospel and how it should relate to our lives.

Why are you continuing to sow seeds of division? Didn’t Caesar just talk about this. You just keep stiring up the pot and then point the finger at traditionalists as the major culprits

You and Dustin’s Dad have just accused me of lying. Let me be clarify so that we have no misunderstandings:

The priest at the SSPX chapel, Our Lady of Victory in Las Vegas, Nevada, called the Novus Ordo Mass an “abomination.” He said it twice. I regard that as an attack on the Church BECAUSE it’s an attack on the Mass (as I explained to Caesar). Abomination is a rather serious term. He didn’t say the NO was regretable, he didn’t say it was unfortunate, he said it was an abomination. And Uxor, really, you’re the one of the last people in these fora who should remonstrate with anyone about sowing seeds of division.

As for the calumny you’ve committed against me, I will forgive you. I will, however, have to work on not feeling that you’ve, once again, simply proved my point about some “traditionalists.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No, but mine was licit.

If you are ever in London may I suggest: (they have a Paulian as well)
spanishplace.hemscott.net/pages/times_of_masses.htm

Or if you would like to see the most beautiful latin Mass said according to the Paulian Missal: (they also have a TLM)
bromptonoratory.com/index_files/Page351.htm

I have no reason to not trust what Kirk said. I know it is not common in indults (or even existent). But, if a priest is willing to put the eternal fate of his soul on the line, I tend to be a bit more suspicious.

So, come up with an answer to my questions yet?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
My shift is done, time to head home, I’ll try and check responses from there.

Wasn’t an Indult, it was an illicit SSPX mass.

Brompton Oratory IS quite beautiful. I was fortunate to be able to go there and pray at the Altar to the English Martyrs (and I got to pray on the spot of the martyrdom of one of my patrons St. Thomas More (Tower Hill), on his feast day, the day of his death.
I was also able to pray at the Altar of the Broken Sword Point in Canterbury, where St. Thomas Becket, also one of my patron saints, was martyred. And I got to hear the most glorious mass at Westminster Abbey. A men’s schola did the common sung parts in Latin. Beautiful!

 

[bear06]

I have been to several TLMs and have not found the priests there even mention the Novus Ordo which is pretty much how it should be. These were all indult Masses. That said, I have friends in the SSPX and even according to them, their priests give homilies which are anti-VII and anti-Novus Ordo. I’m not sure who’s going to be called a liar in this post but my friends have no reason to lie nor do I.

It’s really quite silly to say that SSPX priests never speak out against VII or the Novus Ordo when it’s found on the SSPX’s own websites and their founder Lefebvre spoke out many times against both. Just google it. You’ll find many articles by Williams, Fellay, Lefebvre, etc. Why wouldn’t their priests follow their leaders?

 

[Uxor]

You and Dustin’s Dad have just accused me of lying. Let me be clarify so that we have no misunderstandings:

The priest at the SSPX chapel, Our Lady of Victory in Las Vegas, Nevada, called the Novus Ordo Mass an “abomination.” He said it twice. I regard that as an attack on the Church BECAUSE it’s an attack on the Mass (as I explained to Caesar). Abomination is a rather serious term. He didn’t say the NO was regretable, he didn’t say it was unfortunate, he said it was an abomination. And Uxor, really, you’re the one of the last people in these fora who should remonstrate with anyone about sowing seeds of division.

As for the calumny you’ve committed against me, I will forgive you. I will, however, have to work on not feeling that you’ve, once again, simply proved my point about some “traditionalists.”

What calumny is that?

 

[DustinsDad]

You and Dustin’s Dad have just accused me of lying.

The misunderstanding is thinking I accused you of lying. I said I take such comments with a grain of salt.

Your hyper-defensiveness in these discussions, your belittling of the traditional catholic positions and arguments honestly presented, and your tendancy to try to “read the minds” of others here (myself included) lead me to suspect you could easily have done the same thing at your TLM mass.

And like I said before, maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t. Grain of salt please - just to be on the safe side

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[bear06]

What calumny is that?

Well, I’d guess one of two things.

#1) You implying that Kirk said he heard it at a TLM and not an SSPX chapel.

or

#2)You saying that Kirk is lying and didn’t even hear it in an SSPX chapel.

and then there might be

#3 You saying that Kirk said it because he was angry.

oh yeah, it might also be the fact that you called him Hannity Kirk in another thread.

Take your pick. If you think I’m off base in what you said then maybe you better examine how you said it and issue and apology because at least 3 people thought you were saying the same thing.

Have you ever even been to an SSPX chapel, Uxor?

 

[DustinsDad]

Wasn’t an Indult, it was an illicit SSPX mass…

Well then, to paraphrase your non-bile-filled post to Uxor:
“Once again, you’ve decided to take the high road by confusing an illicit SSPX mass with the licit indult TLM, as well as making such comments out to be the norm when really they’re the exception. Thanks, dear JKirk, for helping me make my point.”
I changed the words in red. Think about it.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[bear06]

The misunderstanding is thinking I accused you of lying. I said I take such comments with a grain of salt.

Let’s see, if you said you were a traditionalist and someone said that they should take that comment with a grain of salt, I’m guessing you might have different attitude. Why don’t you give the definition of the idiom? Here’s a site that might help learn4good.com/languages/evrd_idioms/id-f.php3#take%20with%20a%20grain%20of%20saltyou.

bartleby.com/59/4/grainofsalt.html

usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/grain+of+salt.html
Maybe you just don’t know what it means.

And like I said before, maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t. Grain of salt please - just to be on the safe side

So, in other words you aren’t saying that he’s lying you’re just saying that there’s a good chance.

 

[AJV]

Prophetic, Ceasar. At least from viewing the thread 6 hours later

If I can also make a tiny suggestion: could we have a little subforum of the Traditional forum and name it “Purgatory” and everyone can go there to talk about whose side who is on, who is lying (or not), who is X and who is Y. It would get rid of a lot of tension. Besides, it’s really difficult to navigate through the posts belonging to the OP and those not.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The misunderstanding is thinking I accused you of lying. I said I take such comments with a grain of salt. **Sorry, I must have mistaken “I have to concur with you (sic) suspicions here Uxor” with meaning that you concurred with Uxor’s suspicions. **

Your hyper-defensiveness in these discussions, your belittling of the traditional catholic positions and arguments honestly presented, and your tendancy to try to “read the minds” of others here (myself included) lead me to suspect you could easily have done the same thing at your TLM mass. I admit, I probably do come down on the hyper-defensive side (that might relate to the hyper-critical attitude of some “traditionalists” toward the Church, etc.), but the only thing I’ve belittled (and you weigh in your own conscience your characterization of me as “belittling”) is the gloves that traditionalist bishops wear. I’ve outright made fun of those. I haven’t belittled ANYTHING else. I’ve asked honest questions (to paraphrase your “honestly presented” remark). I also don’t attempt to read anyone’s mind. And were you present at the TLM I attended? Really, do you think you could comment with integrity?

And like I said before, maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t. Grain of salt please - just to be on the safe side Tell you who DOES know, DD…God knows. And my conscience is clear.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Uxor]

Well, I’d guess one of two things.

#1) You implying that Kirk said he heard it at a TLM and not an SSPX chapel.

or

#2)You saying that Kirk is lying and didn’t even hear it in an SSPX chapel.

and then there might be

#3 You saying that Kirk said it because he was angry.

oh yeah, it might also be the fact that you called him Hannity Kirk in another thread.

Take your pick. If you think I’m off base in what you said then maybe you better examine how you said it and issue and apology because at least 3 people thought you were saying the same thing.

Have you ever even been to an SSPX chapel, Uxor?

I’m just stating my opinion on my observance of Tradtional Priests and they don’t fit in the category you guys place them in. .

Second since my remarks hurt you both gravely, I think you would understand then, how I felt when you implied I was in a Jim Jones Cult, protrayed me as idiot to several people while destorting the true facts and last early on being called an heretic and promoting heresy by Kirk. I didn’t take it personal, just ask you to stop, got no support from the moderators. If you want to play grade school bullying, I don’t think this is the place for it or charitable as a Catholic and deters from speaking about the topic. This seems to be the trend on all the threads with you guys. Its no wonder why most traditionalists have you guys on ignore… And that is what I’m doing, I don’t enjoy this, it is crazy.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well then, to paraphrase your non-bile-filled post to Uxor:“Once again, you’ve decided to take the high road by confusing an illicit SSPX mass with the licit indult TLM, as well as making such comments out to be the norm when really they’re the exception. Thanks, dear JKirk, for helping me make my point.”
I changed the words in red. Think about it.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Sorry, DD, you’re getting desperate. I haven’t confused the TLM with the abuse of the TLM, nor have I confused your general devout traditional Catholic with “traditionalists.” In fact, if you read the post where I first mentioned the SSPX chapel visit, I said that I reminded myself that this was NOT representative of the TLM (let me know if you need help finding it, otherwise thank you for this lovely little scenic trip through the land of “irrelevant to the topic”).

 

[bear06]

If I can also make a tiny suggestion: could we have a little subforum of the Traditional forum and name it “Purgatory” and everyone can go there to talk about whose side who is on, who is lying (or not), who is X and who is Y. It would get rid of a lot of tension.

 

[Uxor]

Prophetic, Ceasar. At least from viewing the thread 6 hours later

If I can also make a tiny suggestion: could we have a little subforum of the Traditional forum and name it “Purgatory” and everyone can go there to talk about whose side who is on, who is lying (or not), who is X and who is Y. It would get rid of a lot of tension.

LOL…

 

[AJV]

To each its own really, but you can’t deny the fruits of Vatican II.

That is true and the fruits are often compared with those of Trent. But even Trent, a great and most necessary milestone in the Church did not produce fruits instantaneously . Some decrees were not implmente duntil 200 years after. 20-30 years after it, there was apostasy among bishops in Germany! You can hardly blame that on Trent.

 

[DustinsDad]

Let’s see, if you said you were a traditionalist and someone said that they should take that comment with a grain of salt, I’m guessing you might have different attitude. …

As I said in my post you are responding to - and I’ll try to make it even more clear now and I’ll put it as nicely as I can:

My observations of JKirk’s posts on this discussion board leads me to believe that he is hypersensitive to any critique any aspect of the NO missal, hypercritical of traditional catholic positions and often misrepresents them, and often jumps ahead of what people are actually saying to argue against radical - often sedevacantist - positions…This rather than discuss what loyal and faithful catholics should be able to discuss without going nuts. Given this, I find it entirely possible that ol’ JKirk may have read more into the priests comments than were actually there.

Who knows? This is the Internet after all. I’ll keep that grain of salt if you don’t mind.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[AJV]

There is lots of evidence that Latin was used in the liturgy before it became more widely used in the 4th century. “Domine, non sum dignus” maybe?

It introduction into the West is over 6 centuries later.

Nevertheless Christianity flourished wherever the Latin Mass was introduced. THIS HAS BEEN TIME-PROVEN.

Pius XI- in a conversation with the priest of Al-Abdioth.(translation: Ellard)

The bishops of Estonia were complaining a while ago that all their people were either joining the Protestants or the Orthodox because they could understand (the worship). They came to tell us "We scarcely have anyone anymore, we ask you for permission to celebrate the Roman Mass is Estonian. Among the consultor to the Congregation of Sacred Rites, some said “Yes” and others said “No”. But we said: "Yes, let them celebrate the Mass in Estonian.