The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy

[JKirkLVNV]

What he actually said was, he would rather say the Old Rite in the vernacular on a table facing the people than the New Mass in Latin ad orientem on a High Altar.

Sure you have that in common with him?

And the SSPXers fly the papal flag in front of their church. Just so you know.

Doesn’t make them faithful sons and daughters of the Church. I celebrate Saint Patrick’s Day. Not a lick of Irish in me. I also smoke in the garage. Doesn’t make me a car.

And thanks for the correction. Just wanted to establish that the idea of the Tridentine Mass in the vernaular wasn’t original with me.

 

[Caesar]

Ahh, but my dear young friend, as I asked a fellow poster in a PM, the bulk of the bile and sarcasm is on which side? And again, where has anyone attacked the TLM? My “side” of the fence seems to realize that to attack a legitimate, not to mention venerable and beautiful, rite of the Church IS to attack the Church itself. So ponder, in your heart of hearts, where the balance lies. I certainly have not associated the TLM with schismaticism and infidelity, nor can I frankly recall anyone on the thread who HAS. I HAVE raised the question as to whether or not the attitudes exhibited by some devotees of the TLM might unfairly move others away from that Mass, in their minds and hearts. But that’s hardly on the same level as refering to a legitimate rite of the Church as the “Bogus Ordo,” I’m sure you’ll agree.

Make note that I have not mentioned any specific forum members, nor have I claimed that they attack the traditional Roman Rite itself- but there is clearly a contingent that has no problem going after anyone who might have a completely valid complaint about the Spirit of Vatican II, notably the Novus Ordo and Liturgical innovation (and also be sure to note that I do not consider claims of invalidity, heresy, or the like to be valid complaints). Catholics must love the the Holy Sacrifice of Mass- not the New Roman Rite itself, however valid it may be.

But that is beside the point I wish to make. My point is twofold:

How beneficial to the traditional movement is it to sit around and whine and complain and gossip about all the problems in the Church, and develope a false sense of pride and superiority over toher Catholics?

and,

How can the Church in general get anywhere when so many shun any kind of tradition as superstitious and medieval, and go on believing that Vatican II (or more properly this “Spirit of Vatican II”) is the be-all and end-all of the Church, much less admit to the problems in the Church today?

And this forum is an excellent example of the problems I am so sick of. Instead of discussing traditional customs and art and the old Rites, and making an attempt to further the traditional movement, everyone continualy argues and insults each other.

 

[KMXV]

Doesn’t make them faithful sons and daughters of the Church. I celebrate Saint Patrick’s Day. Not a lick of Irish in me. I also smoke in the garage. Doesn’t make me a car.

And thanks for the correction. Just wanted to establish that the idea of the Tridentine Mass in the vernaular wasn’t original with me.

I suppose it makes them as faithful as the denizens of many North American chancery offices who proudly display the papal flag and proceed to lead their flocks into error on a regular basis.

 

[MTD]

Everytime I or someone else posts a thread here to discuss traditional customs, art, architecture, rites, ect. ect., those threads are ignored in favor of the never-ending argument of TLM vs. NO, or the alleged schism of the SSPX, or who said what, and speculation over the cannonical status of individuals and groups, and the list goes on.

Actually, Caesar, I’m not sure it’s quite that bad. If you look carefully, you’ll see that the never-ending argument threads typically only have two or three posters going on and on and on over the same stuff. Those particular people are not necessarily representative of all the traditionalist members of this forum and are actually the ones who probably wouldn’t post in the spirituality threads in the first place. So you might not be missing out on too much…

Maria

 

[JKirkLVNV]

and,

How can the Church in general get anywhere when so many shun any kind of tradition as superstitious and medieval, and go on believing that Vatican II (or more properly this “Spirit of Vatican II”) is the be-all and end-all of the Church, much less admit to the problems in the Church today?** You’d have to ask elsewhere the first question. I can only answer this question: I don’t shun tradition as superstitious or medieval, I dislike the the “spirit of Vatican II,” and I freely admit that there are terrible problems in the Church today (I simply don’t think it’s the fault of the Church, the council, the popes, or the Mass). **

And this forum is an excellent example of the problems I am so sick of. Instead of discussing traditional customs and art and the old Rites, and making an attempt to further the traditional movement, everyone continualy argues and insults each other.

**

Again, dear friend, ask yourself (in your heart of hearts, if that phrase hasn’t become too trite), where the bulk of the bile lies?

I’m not being flip, btw. I have to tend to something, will reply at length latter (if they haven’t shut the thread down).
**

 

[BobP123]

Both sides here believe they are defending the Church, but in doing so they are only generating more uncharitable posts and perpetuating the same idiocies that started the disputes in the first place, purely out of erroneous pride.

I will gladly admit that among the ranks of traditional-minded Catholics, there is a terrible problem with a lack of proper charity and a false sense of superiotity. At the same time, there are many non-traditional Catholics who, while maybe completely orthodox, will jump at the chance of denouncing anyone who thinks that the Novs Ordo is problematic and will brand anyone who attends the Tridentine Mass as schismatic and unfaithful.

Thing is, though, that the battle seems to be between those that used to be TLM’ers and now are NO vs the other way around. The ones that are faithful Catholics who never heard of the TLM pretty much stay away, though some may be curious and just visit here, wondering what the hooplas all about.

I myself am like the frog Fr. Kramer describes. I accepted the NO for 26 years, attending faithfully, though admittedly, a parish shopper. I even made a hobby of collecting bulletins from different parishes and I have lots of them. But then the burning oil just got too hot for me and I realized I wasn’t worshipping God at all. Am I better than the NO? Of course not. But I have a conscience which had been formed in my much earlier days that I have to go back on. I even see my grade school nuns as saints now for what they taught me back then about the Mass. I am just fortunate enough to have lived long enough to realize it.

Anyway enough of my rambling. Maybe someone should close this thread so I can go watch that movie someone recommended in another thread.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I suppose it makes them as faithful as the denizens of many North American chancery offices who proudly display the papal flag and proceed to lead their flocks into error on a regular basis.

I wouldn’t accuse them of fidelity either.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Thing is, though, that the battle seems to be between those that used to be TLM’ers and now are NO vs the other way around. The ones that are faithful Catholics who never heard of the TLM pretty much stay away, though some may be curious and just visit here, wondering what the hooplas all about.

I myself am like the frog Fr. Kramer describes. I accepted the NO for 26 years, attending faithfully, though admittedly, a parish shopper. I even made a hobby of collecting bulletins from different parishes and I have lots of them. But then the burning oil just got too hot for me and I realized I wasn’t worshipping God at all. Am I better than the NO? Of course not. But I have a conscience which had been formed in my much earlier days that I have to go back on. I even see my grade school nuns as saints now for what they taught me back then about the Mass. I am just fortunate enough to have lived long enough to realize it.

Anyway enough of my rambling. Maybe someone should close this thread so I can go watch that movie someone recommended in another thread.

I never thought about the TLM until I came here to these forums. I’d never been to one, as a convert. It was here that my curriosity was first peaked, so I went to the SSPX chapel (not to fufill my obligation, I went to Mass the night before). Since the homily was filled with angry invective against the Church and Mass I love (and no, Uxor and Bob, the Mass I love doesn’t involve liturgical dance or guitars or Cardinal Mahoney), since the NO was called an “abomination” (at least a more biblical term than “Bogus Ordo”), I had to remind myself that that was not the TLM, anymore than the Barney Mass was the NO. I don’t have trouble remembering that (though I have numberous other sins and shortcomings). Would that others could do the same regarding the NO Mass.

 

[LilyM]

I reckon they shifted from Greek to Latin because the Chair was in Rome not Greece. I think some common sense prevails here.

And before Rome? The chair went, to my knowledge, straight from Jerusalem (Hebrew or Aramaic) to Rome (Latin). So whence the Greek?

 

[bear06]

Where is the exception, please point out the exception. I have attended Mass at numerous Parishes in different states in the past 15 years and they are getting progressively more liberal than conservative.

There actually was a thread awhile ago that was centered on reverent Novus Ordo Masses. You might want to google. There was quite a list. Mine is complete with Latin, Asperges, incense, Gregorian Chant and polyphonic choir and has been for well over 20 years. From what I understand Assumption Grotto has the same Mass and the list was pretty lengthy.

 

[Uxor]

I never thought about the TLM until I came here to these forums. I’d never been to one, as a convert. It was here that my curriosity was first peaked, so I went to the SSPX chapel (not to fufill my obligation, I went to Mass the night before). Since the homily was filled with angry invective against the Church and Mass I love (and no, Uxor and Bob, the Mass I love doesn’t involve liturgical dance or guitars or Cardinal Mahoney), since the NO was called an “abomination” (at least a more biblical term than “Bogus Ordo”), I had to remind myself that that was not the TLM, anymore than the Barney Mass was the NO. I don’t have trouble remembering that (though I have numberous other sins and shortcomings). Would that others could do the same regarding the NO Mass.

I’m sorry I don’t believe you went to a TLM and heard the Priest railing against the Mother Church. All I have ever heard from the Priests at TLM is a stern teaching of the gospel and how it should relate to our lives.

Why are you continuing to sow seeds of division? Didn’t Caesar just talk about this. You just keep stiring up the pot and then point the finger at traditionalists as the major culprits

 

[DustinsDad]

I’m sorry I don’t believe you went to a TLM and heard the Priest railing against the Mother Church. All I have ever heard from the Priests at TLM is a stern teaching of the gospel and how it should relate to our lives.

Why are you continuing to sow seeds of division? Didn’t Caesar just talk about this. You just keep stiring up the pot and then point the finger at traditionalists as the major culprits

I have to concur with you suspicions here Uxor - I take such personal “testimonies” with a grain of salt. Ya never know, maybe it happened maybe it didn’t. I’ve never heard such things from traditional catholic folks, but have seen 'em on the web. Granted I attend indult with ICKSP, and have attended indult with FSSP - but I have talked with alot of traditional catholics - never heard such things from them.

As an aside, such folks with such animosity toward traditional catholics seem to have a certain - almost embarassed - attitude about pre-VII Church history and culture. Kind of like they are embarassed about the past and want to forget it, or at least distance themselves from it as much as possible by riduculing it. Sometimes it’s subtle, sometimes not so subtle. Always sad though.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[lak611]

I never thought about the TLM until I came here to these forums. I’d never been to one, as a convert. It was here that my curriosity was first peaked, so I went to the SSPX chapel (not to fufill my obligation, I went to Mass the night before). Since the homily was filled with angry invective against the Church and Mass I love (and no, Uxor and Bob, the Mass I love doesn’t involve liturgical dance or guitars or Cardinal Mahoney), since the NO was called an “abomination” (at least a more biblical term than “Bogus Ordo”), I had to remind myself that that was not the TLM, anymore than the Barney Mass was the NO. I don’t have trouble remembering that (though I have numberous other sins and shortcomings). Would that others could do the same regarding the NO Mass.

I have to concur with you suspicions here Uxor - I take such personal “testimonies” with a grain of salt. Ya never know, maybe it happened maybe it didn’t. I’ve never heard such things from traditional catholic folks, but have seen 'em on the web. Granted I attend indult with ICKSP, and have attended indult with FSSP - but I have talked with alot of traditional catholics - never heard such things from them.

As an aside, such folks with such animosity toward traditional catholics seem to have a certain - almost embarassed - attitude about pre-VII Church history and culture. Kind of like they are embarassed about the past and want to forget it, or at least distance themselves from it as much as possible by riduculing it. Sometimes it’s subtle, sometimes not so subtle. Always sad though.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

The poster witnessed this at SSPX, not an indult TLM.

 

[Thursday1]

I’m sorry I don’t believe you went to a TLM and heard the Priest railing against the Mother Church. All I have ever heard from the Priests at TLM is a stern teaching of the gospel and how it should relate to our lives.

Why are you continuing to sow seeds of division? Didn’t Caesar just talk about this. You just keep stiring up the pot and then point the finger at traditionalists as the major culprits

Are you sorry that you don’t believe JKirkLVNV or are you sorry that you just called him a liar?
Is there some reason we should take your word above the word of JKirkLVNV?

Just wondering. . .

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[DustinsDad]

The poster witnessed this at SSPX, not an indult TLM.

True - but I am assuming most of the posters on this forum attend indult, and so such comments from JKirk are not beneficial in my honest opinion, and do serve only to divide and cause bickering.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Uxor]

I have to concur with you suspicions here Uxor - I take such personal “testimonies” with a grain of salt. Ya never know, maybe it happened maybe it didn’t. I’ve never heard such things from traditional catholic folks, but have seen 'em on the web. Granted I attend indult with ICKSP, and have attended indult with FSSP - but I have talked with alot of traditional catholics - never heard such things from them.

As an aside, such folks with such animosity toward traditional catholics seem to have a certain - almost embarassed - attitude about pre-VII Church history and culture. Kind of like they are embarassed about the past and want to forget it, or at least distance themselves from it as much as possible by riduculing it. Sometimes it’s subtle, sometimes not so subtle. Always sad though.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I agree…They are a family, very happy, joyful, and charitable. They want to spend alot of time with eachother and have fun. There is no talk of V2, the NO Mass and our Priests would frown upon and not permit it. I never realized there was such an underground volcano till I came to this site.

 

[Uxor]

Are you sorry that you don’t believe JKirkLVNV or are you sorry that you just called him a liar?
Is there some reason we should take your word above the word of JKirkLVNV?

Just wondering. . .

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

I did pro-life work for years. A small group of us would go and pray the rosary, nonconfrontational. Usually 5 police cars would show, some were beaten, we were hosed at, screamed and yelled at, called names, homosexuals with show with crosses and monkeys on their backs harrassing, we had a gun pointed at us, a woman tried to run me over that worked at the clinic…and so on. Again we were nonconfrontational, all we did was pray the rosary and had to stand 15 ft apart or we would be arrested. Now look at the news and the propaganda that is spread against pro-lifers. I have responded to some who believe what is said, go to the clinics and see for yourself who are the violent ones. I say to you, attend a TLM and see if Kirk is telling the truth.

 

[Thursday1]

I did pro-life work for years. A small group of us would go and pray the rosary, nonconfrontational. Usually 5 police cars would show, some were beaten, we were hosed at, screamed and yelled at, called names, homosexuals with show with crosses and monkeys on their backs harrassing, we had a gun pointed at us, a woman tried to run me over that worked at the clinic…and so on. Again we were nonconfrontational, all we did was pray the rosary and had to stand 15 ft apart or we would be arrested. Now look at the news and the propaganda that is spread against pro-lifers. I have responded to some who believe what is said, go to the clinics and see for yourself who are the violent ones. I say to you, attend a TLM and see if Kirk is telling the truth.

A bit of a dodge there, I think. . .
You are denying that there is even the possibility that an SSPX priest (one suspended a divinis by the way) would ever say things like this. Priests are still human, and from what I have seen here and at fisheaters, humans can definitely say things like that.
I find it incredible that you seem to believe that every Mass said according to the Paulian Missal is becoming more and more liberal, but not one SSPX TLM will have a priest like the one Kirk describes.
I love the Mass, I make no distinction between rites that I love and that I do not, they are all the Mass. Can you say the same thing?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I have attended a TLM, in London. It was quite beautiful.
3 rites down, around 25 to go. . .

 

[Uxor]

A bit of a dodge there, I think. . .
You are denying that there is even the possibility that an SSPX priest (one suspended a divinis by the way) would ever say things like this. Priests are still human, and from what I have seen here and at fisheaters, humans can definitely say things like that.
I find it incredible that you seem to believe that every Mass said according to the Paulian Missal is becoming more and more liberal, but not one SSPX TLM will have a priest like the one Kirk describes.
I love the Mass, I make no distinction between rites that I love and that I do not, they are all the Mass. Can you say the same thing?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
I have attended a TLM, in London. It was quite beautiful.
3 rites down, around 25 to go. . .

You say you attended a TLM in London…did you hear anything what Kirk described?

 

[Thursday1]

You say you attended a TLM in London…did you hear anything what Kirk described?

No, but mine was licit.

If you are ever in London may I suggest: (they have a Paulian as well)
spanishplace.hemscott.net/pages/times_of_masses.htm

Or if you would like to see the most beautiful latin Mass said according to the Paulian Missal: (they also have a TLM)
bromptonoratory.com/index_files/Page351.htm

I have no reason to not trust what Kirk said. I know it is not common in indults (or even existent). But, if a priest is willing to put the eternal fate of his soul on the line, I tend to be a bit more suspicious.

So, come up with an answer to my questions yet?

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

P.S.
My shift is done, time to head home, I’ll try and check responses from there.