The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy

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KMXV said:
Not immediately, but given enough time…

And the Church has nothing but time. Why drink banal new Coke when you have old, reliable (and quite filling) Coke Classic available?
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'Sup, Doc?

We’ll see. I predict, if anything, there’ll be a move to translate, gradually, over time, the beautiful TLM into the vernacular. That would be really the only “danger” to the NO. Otherwise, it will just get better because of the proximity of the TLM. A relatively small percentage (out of the whole of the Church) will cling to it exclusively, some will start going, but realize that they prefer the Mass in the vernacular for most of their worship, and most of the rest will simply continue going to the Pauline.
 
Jean_Anthony said:
Remember people, no personal derogatory comments/attacks are allowed. Please stick to the rules or I will be forced to close the thread.
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Sorry, Jean, I modified it so that it had more to do with the argument. I realize it looked a little personal.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
'Sup, Doc?

We’ll see. I predict, if anything, there’ll be a move to translate, gradually, over time, the beautiful TLM into the vernacular. That would be really the only “danger” to the NO. Otherwise, it will just get better because of the proximity of the TLM. A relatively small percentage (out of the whole of the Church) will cling to it exclusively, some will start going, but realize that they prefer the Mass in the vernacular for most of their worship, and most of the rest will simply continue going to the Pauline.
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I am hunting wabbits. Is that what you’re looking for?

If the NO can get better just because it’s within shouting distance of a TLM…what exactly does that say about the NO? In isolation, it would just get worse? Be nice if we could put that one to the test. Oh, wait a minute. We’ve been testing for 40 years. And the prototype still needs reform.

I notice no one ever claims the NO will influence the TLM for the better. Wonder why that is?
 
KMXV said:
I am hunting wabbits. Is that what you’re looking for?

If the NO can get better just because it’s within shouting distance of a TLM…what exactly does that say about the NO? In isolation, it would just get worse? Be nice if we could put that one to the test. Oh, wait a minute. We’ve been testing for 40 years. And the prototype still needs reform.

I notice no one ever claims the NO will influence the TLM for the better. Wonder why that is?
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AW, now, KMXV, it’s isn’t all that bad in the NO, according to the Pope, at least:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701785.htm
 
Mein Gott! Will this worn-out argument never end?!

Everytime I or someone else posts a thread here to discuss traditional customs, art, architecture, rites, ect. ect., those threads are ignored in favor of the never-ending argument of TLM vs. NO, or the alleged schism of the SSPX, or who said what, and speculation over the cannonical status of individuals and groups, and the list goes on.

The description of this forum says “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”. I’m still looking for that forum, because everytime I click on the link I end up with a seething pile of gossip, insults, and the same old squabbles repeated over and over and over again.

I have a little theory about this forum- please hear me out about this- and that is I believe that the moderators at CAF never intended for a “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality” in the first place. Rather, a whole new forum just makes it easier for them to regulate and control the multitude of uncharitable posts and thinly-vieled slurs that are abound here.

Just my two-cents…
 
Caesar said:
Mein Gott! Will this worn-out argument never end?!

Everytime I or someone else posts a thread here to discuss traditional customs, art, architecture, rites, ect. ect., those threads are ignored in favor of the never-ending argument of TLM vs. NO, or the alleged schism of the SSPX, or who said what, and speculation over the cannonical status of individuals and groups, and the list goes on.

The description of this forum says “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”. I’m still looking for that forum, because everytime I click on the link I end up with a seething pile of gossip, insults, and the same old squabbles repeated over and over and over again.

I have a little theory about this forum- please hear me out about this- and that is I believe that the moderators at CAF never intended for a “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality” in the first place. Rather, a whole new forum just makes it easier for them to regulate and control the multitude of uncharitable posts and thinly-vieled slurs that are abound here.

Just my two-cents…
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Well, my dear brother in Christ, sometimes Holy Mother Church requires defending.
 
Caesar said:
Mein Gott! Will this worn-out argument never end?!

Everytime I or someone else posts a thread here to discuss traditional customs, art, architecture, rites, ect. ect., those threads are ignored in favor of the never-ending argument of TLM vs. NO, or the alleged schism of the SSPX, or who said what, and speculation over the cannonical status of individuals and groups, and the list goes on.

The description of this forum says “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”. I’m still looking for that forum, because everytime I click on the link I end up with a seething pile of gossip, insults, and the same old squabbles repeated over and over and over again.

I have a little theory about this forum- please hear me out about this- and that is I believe that the moderators at CAF never intended for a “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality” in the first place. Rather, a whole new forum just makes it easier for them to regulate and control the multitude of uncharitable posts and thinly-vieled slurs that are abound here.

Just my two-cents…
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Makes sense to me…
 
Caesar said:
Mein Gott! Will this worn-out argument never end?!

Everytime I or someone else posts a thread here to discuss traditional customs, art, architecture, rites, ect. ect., those threads are ignored in favor of the never-ending argument of TLM vs. NO, or the alleged schism of the SSPX, or who said what, and speculation over the cannonical status of individuals and groups, and the list goes on.
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Don’t blame us. It’s all the fault of those French bishops.

Ever read the book “The Rhine Flows into the Tiber”?
 
KMXV said:
I notice no one ever claims the NO will influence the TLM for the better. Wonder why that is?
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Goodness, I just did. I suggested that the TLM would someday be in the vernacular (not that that would be “better” in the ontological sense, it couldn’t be ontologically better than it is, but only in the sense that it would be more “accessible” to the people). The NO is most commonly celebrated in the vernacular, allowing people to see how “helpful” (to use Cardinal Ratzinger’s words) the Mass in the vernacular can be. And even the old excommunicated Archbishop Lefebreve stated that he’d rather see the TLM in the vernacular than the NO facing the people (someone correct me if I’ve paraphrased that incorrectly). So the NO will have influenced the TLM.

Imagine that, me having something in common with the Archbishop.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Well, my dear brother in Christ, sometimes Holy Mother Church requires defending.
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Both sides here believe they are defending the Church, but in doing so they are only generating more uncharitable posts and perpetuating the same idiocies that started the disputes in the first place, purely out of erroneous pride.

I will gladly admit that among the ranks of traditional-minded Catholics, there is a terrible problem with a lack of proper charity and a false sense of superiotity. At the same time, there are many non-traditional Catholics who, while maybe completely orthodox, will jump at the chance of denouncing anyone who thinks that the Novs Ordo is problematic and will brand anyone who attends the Tridentine Mass as schismatic and unfaithful.
 
Uxor said:
Is this site run by Cardinal Mahoney?
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If you mean the link I provided, no, it’s a link to an article on a perfectly orthodox website, provided in a different thread by our good Caesar, future priest and one of the nicest people I know who self-identifies as a “traditionalist.” He’s the real article. Others could do well to hang out more with him.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Goodness, I just did. I suggested that the TLM would someday be in the vernacular (not that that would be “better” in the ontological sense, it couldn’t be ontologically better than it is, but only in the sense that it would be more “accessible” to the people). The NO is most commonly celebrated in the vernacular, allowing people to see how “helpful” (to use Cardinal Ratzinger’s words) the Mass in the vernacular can be. And even the old excommunicated Archbishop Lefebreve stated that he’d rather see the TLM in the vernacular than the NO facing the people (someone correct me if I’ve paraphrased that incorrectly). So the NO will have influenced the TLM.

Imagine that, me having something in common with the Archbishop.
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Personally from what I have observed from attending both Masses the only influence that the NO will have on the TLM would be the NO Crowd trying to drag their disruptive big band practices into the congregation. But the Altar girls and the women servers will have to sit on the other side of the kneeling rail. Sorry.
 
Caesar said:
Both sides here believe they are defending the Church, but in doing so they are only generating more uncharitable posts and perpetuating the same idiocies that started the disputes in the first place, purely out of erroneous pride.

I will gladly admit that among the ranks of traditional-minded Catholics, there is a terrible problem with a lack of proper charity and a false sense of superiotity. At the same time, there are many non-traditional Catholics who, while maybe completely orthodox, will jump at the chance of denouncing anyone who thinks that the Novs Ordo is problematic and will brand anyone who attends the Tridentine Mass as schismatic and unfaithful.
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Ahh, but my dear young friend, as I asked a fellow poster in a PM, the bulk of the bile and sarcasm is on which side? And again, where has anyone attacked the TLM? My “side” of the fence seems to realize that to attack a legitimate, not to mention venerable and beautiful, rite of the Church IS to attack the Church itself. So ponder, in your heart of hearts, where the balance lies. I certainly have not associated the TLM with schismaticism and infidelity, nor can I frankly recall anyone on the thread who HAS. I HAVE raised the question as to whether or not the attitudes exhibited by some devotees of the TLM might unfairly move others away from that Mass, in their minds and hearts. But that’s hardly on the same level as refering to a legitimate rite of the Church as the “Bogus Ordo,” I’m sure you’ll agree.
 
Uxor said:
Personally from what I have observed from attending both Masses the only influence that the NO will have on the TLM would be the NO Crowd trying to drag their disruptive big band practices into the congregation. But the Altar girls and the women servers will have to sit on the other side of the kneeling rail. Sorry.
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Once again, you’ve decided to take the high road by confusing an abuse of the NO Ordo with the NO, as well as making such abuses out to be the norm when really they’re the exception. Thanks, dear Uxor, for helping me make my point.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Once again, you’ve decided to take the high road by confusing an abuse of the NO Ordo with the NO, as well as making such abuses out to be the norm when really they’re the exception. Thanks, dear Uxor, for helping me make my point.
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Where is the exception, please point out the exception. I have attended Mass at numerous Parishes in different states in the past 15 years and they are getting progressively more liberal than conservative.
 
Uxor said:
Where is the exception, please point out the exception. I have attended Mass at numerous Parishes in different states in the past 15 years and they are getting progressively more liberal than conservative.
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Well, I think first we would have to agree on what constitutes liberal and what constitutes conservative. Some things are perfectly orthodox and yet thoroughly loathed by some “traditionalists,” who apply labels like “modernism” or “liberal” to things permitted by the Holy See. So that would have to be the starting point, an agreement on terms. I rather doubt we’re going to get very far on that score.

Suffice it to say, I’ve also seen abuses. They are outnumbered by properly celebrated Masses.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Goodness, I just did. I suggested that the TLM would someday be in the vernacular (not that that would be “better” in the ontological sense, it couldn’t be ontologically better than it is, but only in the sense that it would be more “accessible” to the people). The NO is most commonly celebrated in the vernacular, allowing people to see how “helpful” (to use Cardinal Ratzinger’s words) the Mass in the vernacular can be. And even the old excommunicated Archbishop Lefebreve stated that he’d rather see the TLM in the vernacular than the NO facing the people (someone correct me if I’ve paraphrased that incorrectly). So the NO will have influenced the TLM.

Imagine that, me having something in common with the Archbishop.
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What he actually said was, he would rather say the Old Rite in the vernacular on a table facing the people than the New Mass in Latin ad orientem on a High Altar.

Sure you have that in common with him?

And the SSPXers fly the papal flag in front of their church. Just so you know.
 
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