The ten commandments

[Roy5]

A few quick points

 1. I noticed that after Vatican II many churches removed many of their statues. It seemed to be an admission that such statuary had gotten out of hand. 

 2. Here there is an Italian parade each year. Mary is paraded through the streets, with money attached to her. I find the whole thing medieval. If one's regards it as a cultural observance, okay. But otherwise... well, I find it bordering on superstition.

 3. I've always had trouble with some wording in the Ten Commandments. Yes, the word 'jealous' to describe God is one. I am bothered also by the idea (Ex. 20:7) that God punishes the third and fourth generations. Fair? 

 4. Do we really believe that it is always wrong to steal? What about the CIA, etc - or stealing the documents from bin Laden's residence recently? Or, murder? Gosh, how many people have we murdered in wars, past and present? I know, I know. There are exceptions. Or, are they rationalizations. After all, two chapters later we are told to murder witches plus all others who worship someone other than Jehovah! (Ex. 22:18, 20). God told Joshua to murder everyone in Jericho, and commanded Saul to slaughter every Amalekite not already slaughtered. 

 5. As for observing the Sabbath, well, God meant the 7th day, not the first, of course. And working on the Sabbath? Should we close the stores as we did in the old days? 

  Lots more, but that's enough.

** Runningdude**. I’ve always wondered about comparing Mary to Bathsheba as both Queen Mothers. To begin with, Bathsheba was essentially raped by King David who had her husband killed so he could have her as a wife. As for King Solomon, their son, the ‘wisest man in the world’? - according to scripture - he had 700 wives and 300 concubines. A model family for our time? I don’t think so.

 

[meltzerboy]

A few quick points

 1. I noticed that after Vatican II many churches removed many of their statues. It seemed to be an admission that such statuary had gotten out of hand. 

 2. Here there is an Italian parade each year. Mary is paraded through the streets, with money attached to her. I find the whole thing medieval. If one's regards it as a cultural observance, okay. But otherwise... well, I find it bordering on superstition.

 3. I've always had trouble with some wording in the Ten Commandments. Yes, the word 'jealous' to describe God is one. I am bothered also by the idea (Ex. 20:7) that God punishes the third and fourth generations. Fair? 

 4. Do we really believe that it is always wrong to steal? What about the CIA, etc - or stealing the documents from bin Laden's residence recently? Or, murder? Gosh, how many people have we murdered in wars, past and present? I know, I know. There are exceptions. Or, are they rationalizations. After all, two chapters later we are told to murder witches plus all others who worship someone other than Jehovah! (Ex. 22:18, 20). God told Joshua to murder everyone in Jericho, and commanded Saul to slaughter every Amalekite not already slaughtered. 

 5. As for observing the Sabbath, well, God meant the 7th day, not the first, of course. And working on the Sabbath? Should we close the stores as we did in the old days? 

  Lots more, but that's enough.

** Runningdude**. I’ve always wondered about comparing Mary to Bathsheba as both Queen Mothers. To begin with, Bathsheba was essentially raped by King David who had her husband killed so he could have her as a wife. As for King Solomon, their son, the ‘wisest man in the world’? - according to scripture - he had 700 wives and 300 concubines. A model family for our time? I don’t think so.

I’d just like to take up one or two of your points. The use of the word “jealous” in the commandment is taken to mean in Hebrew “impassioned” in the sense of loving and caring. G-d loves us so much that it pains Him when we disobey. The verse in Exodus that seems to suggest collective guilt visited upon successive generations has been interpreted in light of other passages in the Hebrew Bible which point to the contrary. The negative outcome is predicated on our refusal to depart from the sinful ways of our forefathers who may have instilled immoral behavior in us, and thereby falling into the same sinful behaviors and being punished as they were. At the same time, however, there is the ever-present hope of recovery and learning to practice righteousness by studying the moral principles outlined by G-d.

 

[Scruples]

Who has the stone tablets on which the Lord carved the Decalogue? Who has Moses’ handwritten copy of Exodus in which he wrote down the commandments?

They no longer exist, so no individual can know, with absolute certainty, if they have a correct copy of them today. The Decalogue versions (plural) in the bible do not exactly agree with each other between Exodus and Deuteronomy.

So, why is it the Catholic Church that must be wrong?

You say that, " no individual can know with absolute certianty, if they have a correct copy" of the scriptures today? How about Pope Pius XII? In his encyclical “Divino Afflante Spiritu” (On the Most Opportune Way to Promote Biblical Studies ), he compared the inerrancy of the Bible to the sinlessness of Christ:

“For as the substantial Word of God became like to men in all things, except sin, so the words of God, expressed in human language, are made like to human speech in every respect, except error.”

He also condemned the concept of limited inerrancy. He wrote:

“The sacred Council of Trent ordained by solemn decree that ‘the entire books with all their parts, as they have been wont to be read in the Catholic Church and are contained in the old vulgate Latin edition, are to be held sacred and canonical.’ … When, subsequently, some Catholic writers, in spite of this solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the ‘entire books with all their parts’ as to secure** freedom from any error whatsoever**, ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals, and to regard other matters, whether in the domain of physical science or history, as “obiter dicta” and - as they contended - in no wise connected with faith, Our Predecessor of immortal memory, Leo XIII in the Encyclical Letter ‘Providentissimus Deus’ … justly and rightly condemned these errors.”

There are many reasons that I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, including the authority that our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ afforded it repeatedly affirming his teaching with such phrases as “it is written” and "What is written in the law? how readest thou? Luke 10:26 I recall also how St. Luke commended those of Berea who were bold enough to even test the teachings of St. Paul by the old testament scriptures:

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. -Acts 17:10-11

I hope that you will choose to cast your lot with the “more noble” Bereans, holding the holy scriptures to be of a higher authority than the oral testimony of any man, even one of such authority of the apostle to the gentiles. I urge you to consider upon what thin ice one walks when, in order to cling to their tradition, they are willing to discount the Word of God on the one hand and on the other contradict whom they claim to be God’s vicegerent on earth.

With Christ’s love, Your (separated) brother, in His service, Jo.

 

[fred_conty]

I think you mean the First Commandment, which is “I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no strange gods before Me,” right? The second commandment for Catholics is “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God in vain.”

In any event, I did a search on the Ask an Apologist forum and found several threds on the topic. I’ll list a few of them below.

How can we say we do not have graven images of our God?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=659654

Why is a Catholic NOT an idol worshiper?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=657353

Do we Catholics worship idols?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=642966

What’s the Difference?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=446564

How do I deal with the Statues vs Idols argument?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=342661

That is real good, and I like your unique name as well.

 

[fred_conty]

Scruples, you started by saying,
Hi Chat! I believe you have a valid concern. What part of “thou shalt not” is hard to understand?

“4Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them….” -Douay-Rheims Bible, Exodus 20:4-6
What three things are prohibited here?

1. Making graven images
2. Adoring graven images (“bow down” to them in the KJV Bible)
3. Serving them.
   UNQUOTE-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Graven according to the dictionary means carved or sculptured.

Now if we are to take “making graven images” literally, then all the students in all the universites and learning instutions everywhere who are in art classes carving and sculpturing objects in the likeness of any thing in heaven above, on earth, or in the waters, are breaking this commandment?

And also those who had anything to do with Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC?

And those that carved the president’s images in Mount Rushmoore?

And those who set up carved images in all the crib scenes at Christmas?

I can’t mention the statue of Liberty since that really isn’t a sculpture, but close.

Just thinking that you may wish to give this more thought.

 

[fred_conty]

Scruples, you mentioned,
It seems inescapable that the Roman Catholic division has been contrived; And if contrived, what other plausible explanation can there be but that it was done to preserve the number of commandments as 10, after removing the second commandment about images (from the summarized catechism version)?
Am I missing something here? Is their a logic that I have failed to grasp?

UNQUOTE--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see what you are saying, because the O.T. we could say has about 12 to 14 commandments.
And these were summarized into just 10.

You said “am I missing something here?”
The answer is yes. St. Augustine. For I believe he was the one who did this long ago.

But you are right in that he was Catholic, because this is what he said:

“In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should. . . With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me. . . No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion. . . For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”

St. Augustine

 

[po18guy]

You say that, " no individual can know with absolute certianty, if they have a correct copy" of the scriptures today? How about Pope Pius XII?

Ah! But, he is not an individual like you or I. He is the successor to Peter. He speaks for and to the Church, (yes, even you), which is the mystical Body of Christ on earth. He acts in concert with the successors to the Apostles, and has interpretive authority.

Satan quoted from scripture. Was he correct? Did he have the authority?

There are many reasons that I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, including the authority that our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ afforded it repeatedly affirming his teaching with such phrases as “it is written” and "What is written in the law? how readest thou? Luke 10:26 I recall also how St. Luke commended those of Berea who were bold enough to even test the teachings of St. Paul by the old testament scriptures…

Interesting that you should mention Luke! Read the prologue to his Gospel. In just two sentences, he explains the purpose of his Gospel: to confirm the oral Apostolic Tradition (paradosis) that Theophilus had already learned. Theophilus learned nothing - zip, zero, nada - from Luke’s Gospel. That much is clear from the prologue.

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica…

Double interesting that you also mention the Bereans! Please tell us how they taught Paul all about Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah. Except, they didn’t. Paul taught them using the oral Apostolic Tradition (paradosis). They went on and compared Paul’s Tradition to the Law and the Prophets only to confirm that prophecy was consistent with Paul’s Tradition.

I see a pattern here.

Fact: Man lives on “every word that flows from the mouth of God.” Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4). Do you believe this?

Problem: The bible tells us it does not have God’s every word in it. (Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25, Acts 2:40, 1 Corinthians 11:34

Before you continue to hammer on oral teaching, remember that our Sovereign Lord used it, then empowered His Apostles and sent them forth using it. When you belittle it, are you not in danger of criticizing our Lord more than you are the Catholic Church? As a brother in Christ, I advise you to think about this.

But, we digress.

 

[DLG123]

Is it just me or does scruples seem to be seathing?

maybe its just me.

DLG:shrug:

 

[po18guy]

Is it just me or does scruples seem to be seathing?

maybe its just me.

DLG:shrug:

Of this, I am certain: He loves Jesus and is fervent in his faith. He is absolutely sure that he and his fallible interpretation of scripture are correct.

The problem, as I see it, is that many such individuals fit the bible to their faith. They default to criticism of the Catholic Church while ignoring that their protestant brothers have even larger disagreements. The Catholic Church is a comforting target to divert attention away from protestant tension between denominations. Would it not make more sense for such persons to evangelize, say, certain Pentecostals who do not believe in the Trinity?

I see no protestant efforts (works? ) toward unity - only unity that is opposed to the Catholic Church while completely ignoring the essentiually identical Orthodox Churches. Funny how that works, isn’t it?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

A few quick points

 1. I noticed that after Vatican II many churches removed many of their statues. It seemed to be an admission that such statuary had gotten out of hand. Gee, what about all the churches that KEPT their statues and added more.  Doesn't that SEEM to be an admission that the statuary is just fine?  You know what they say about assumptions, Roy. :D Your assumption is based simply on YOUR PERSONAL OPINION and as such holds absolutely no weight.

 2. Here there is an Italian parade each year. Mary is paraded through the streets, with money attached to her. I find the whole thing medieval. If one's regards it as a cultural observance, okay. But otherwise... well, I find it bordering on superstition.Fine.  Don't join the parade.  Nobody is forcing you to.  Again, your PERSONAL OPINION is simply that. Your opinion.  You're welcome to it, but don't attempt to present IT as the 'norm' or truth and then criticize Catholics for their 'deviation' from YOUR OPINION.

 3. I've always had trouble with some wording in the Ten Commandments. Yes, the word 'jealous' to describe God is one. I am bothered also by the idea (Ex. 20:7) that God punishes the third and fourth generations. Fair? He also REWARDS the third and fourth generations of the righteous.  Fair?  He also saves every one of us even though there is no way we could ever MERIT heaven on our own.  Is that fair?

 4. Do we really believe that it is always wrong to steal? What about the CIA, etc - or stealing the documents from bin Laden's residence recently? Or, murder? Gosh, how many people have we murdered in wars, past and present? I know, I know. There are exceptions. Or, are they rationalizations. After all, two chapters later we are told to murder witches plus all others who worship someone other than Jehovah! (Ex. 22:18, 20). God told Joshua to murder everyone in Jericho, and commanded Saul to slaughter every Amalekite not already slaughtered. There is a difference between murder and between lawful capital punishment.  And of course, God is God.  He could have simply lifted a finger and destroyed everyone in Jericho and you wouldn't have said boo because hey it was GOD.  He could have sent a cyclone and destroyed them and you wouldn't have said boo because it was the CYCLONE that did it.  But ask PEOPLE to do His will and suddenly boo, it's mur-diddley-urder.:D

 5. As for observing the Sabbath, well, God meant the 7th day, not the first, of course. And working on the Sabbath? Should we close the stores as we did in the old days? I thought that Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath?  I thought that God was Lord and could observe --and have US observe-- as HE chose. . .and He apparently chose to have Christians celebrate on Sunday in lieu of the Jewish Sabbath.

  Lots more, but that's enough.  I agree, but then you add more down below.  Mostly non sequiters but hey. . .

** Runningdude**. I’ve always wondered about comparing Mary to Bathsheba as both Queen Mothers. To begin with, Bathsheba was essentially raped by King David who had her husband killed so he could have her as a wife. As for King Solomon, their son, the ‘wisest man in the world’? - according to scripture - he had 700 wives and 300 concubines. A model family for our time? I don’t think so.

 

[Roy5]

Tantum ergo

 A few brief responses.

 Of course, I am expressing my opinion. But when it comes to the reduction in statuary, I report what I have observed. I have worshiped in various Catholic churches (and I recall pre-Vatican II days) and find that many older church and most new ones have few statues. Usually one of Mary and perhaps one of Christ but no more. I recall dark churches with many statues, the strong scent of incense, and a generally somber interior. How much better now that so many of them are lighter, brighter and with fewer statues.

 As for the Ten Commandments, judging the 3rd and 4th generations, either positively or negatively, seems unfair to me. Just my idea. I'm sure many Christians would say I have no right to judge God. True, but I don't want my Lord and his love of justice and mercy to be misrepresented, either. I become a bit defensive when God is presented as some sort of wrathful, angry deity who expects us to be compassionate and forgiving but isn't that way himself.

  I don't believe that God sends a tornado or a hurricane to deliberate kill people and destroy communities. Do you? Maybe we have a different concept of God. I was taught along the way that God is love, and I guess I'm struck with that impression all these years later. I also was taught that God was forgiving. But what do I know? Just my opinion.

 

[po18guy]

** I don’t believe that God sends a tornado or a hurricane to deliberate kill people and destroy communities. Do you? Maybe we have a different concept of God. I was taught along the way that God is love, and I guess I’m struck with that impression all these years later. I also was taught that God was forgiving. But what do I know? Just my opinion.** Do you believe in a literal, eternal hell?

 

[asd72]

Catholics understand that images and statues are created things, not Gods. They are to draw the mind up to God, Mary and the Saints.

There are still religions which have idols in the classic sense, actual statues they believe are Gods, but the Catholic religion is not one of them.

 

[Roy5]

Do you believe in a literal, eternal hell?

In all honesty, I don't pretend to know much about the world beyond. I tend to think that it is beyond human comprehension.

However, if pressed I would say that I tend not to believe in a literal, eternal hell. If God expects us to forgive one another 70 x 7 times - infinitely - I am inclined to think he does the same.

 On the other hand, there have been a small number of people (think Hitler, Stalin) who may deserve a literal, eternal hell. But I suspect there are other ways of punishment that we can't imagine because of our limited mortal minds. 

  Then again, Christ called upon us to forgive our enemies, which adds another complicating factor to the total mix. Would he not do the same?

  I'm contend to put my trust in the wisdom and compassion of God, try to live as good a life as I can, and not fret about the life beyond. .

 

[bookofpeter]

]2) Do not make for yourself any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth;

Kind of blunt and to the point

This is probably the most sensitive of all the commandments. Man has never seen God, but man just is not satisfied unless he erects some form, “image”, a visual representative of God to gaze upon, buildings, statues or paintings.

The true image of God

Give honor to the image of God, which is man. Give food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, clothing to the naked, hospitality to the stranger, and necessary things to the prisoner. That is what will be regarded as true worship bestowed upon God. All these things we do for our fellow man go to the honor of God’s image and build up treasures in the kingdom to come.

Have a great day

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum ergo

 A few brief responses.

 Of course, I am expressing my opinion. But when it comes to the reduction in statuary, I report what I have observed. I have worshiped in various Catholic churches (and I recall pre-Vatican II days) and find that many older church and most new ones have few statues. Usually one of Mary and perhaps one of Christ but no more. I recall dark churches with many statues, the strong scent of incense, and a generally somber interior. How much better now that so many of them are lighter, brighter and with fewer statues.

 As for the Ten Commandments, judging the 3rd and 4th generations, either positively or negatively, seems unfair to me. Just my idea. I'm sure many Christians would say I have no right to judge God. True, but I don't want my Lord and his love of justice and mercy to be misrepresented, either. I become a bit defensive when God is presented as some sort of wrathful, angry deity who expects us to be compassionate and forgiving but isn't that way himself.

  I don't believe that God sends a tornado or a hurricane to deliberate kill people and destroy communities. Do you? Maybe we have a different concept of God. I was taught along the way that God is love, and I guess I'm struck with that impression all these years later. I also was taught that God was forgiving. But what do I know? Just my opinion.

As I said, you’re entitled to your opinion. But gee, Roy, you are ONE person and you are extrapolating what you saw at exactly HOW many Catholic Churches as if when they ‘removed’ statues it was ONLY because they thought they had been overboard before.

Roy, there are MANY reasons that the FEW PARTICULAR Churches you saw may have ‘removed statues’. And let me tell you, even IF (big IF) the one priest who made that decision did it for the reason you claim, he was not doing so because this was the Church’s reasoning, but because he (personally, on his own), made that ERROR.

But there are other reasons. First, some of the statues may have been old. Statues need upkeep. It could have cost more, to a parish that was struggling for financial reasons of any kind, to ‘keep up’ certain statues rather than remove them.

You know though, if I happened to draw on MY experience of going to Protestant churches, of which I have visited probably at least a couple of hundred, and claim that compared to the churches I saw in the 1960s which were very stark and plain,and the churches in the 2000s which are much more ornate and which (and this will probably surprise you Roy) actually have begun to incorporate things such as altar linens, stained glass, much more CEREMONY, and said that OBVIOUSLY this proved that the protestant churches today have realized their error (past) in being dingy mingy places and have instead striven, as the Catholic Churches have traditionally done, to be places of sacred, beautiful, and more formal space, you would probably have conniption fits that I could even THINK of making such a judgment based on such a small sample. Even if that sample is limited to only two specific Protestant denominations, you’d still complain that it would be ridiculous to make that kind of judgement based on simply my experiences.

And just to make it clear, you’re arguing an ‘either or’ as if God had NOTHING to do with weather on the planet. Kind of deist thought,. . .that God who created everything just ‘lets it go’ without any thought in the world.

And I have a both-and. No I do not believe that God is a Calvinistic kind of God who deliberately ‘sets up’ people (Peter, take a memo. July 17, 2015, I want a category 3 tornado to hit Peoria, Illinois and take out 73-year-old Ed because the night before Ed is going to hit his wife) to be killed in weather disasters. BUT since God also knows what is going to happen at any given moment, it is entirely possible that He can “use” everything, including a weather event, EXACTLY AS HE wills. And it will be totally just when He does.

 

[asd72]

]2) Do not make for yourself any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth;

Kind of blunt and to the point

This is probably the most sensitive of all the commandments. Man has never seen God, but man just is not satisfied unless he erects some form, “image”, a visual representative of God to gaze upon, buildings, statues or paintings.

The true image of God

Give honor to the image of God, which is man. Give food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, clothing to the naked, hospitality to the stranger, and necessary things to the prisoner. That is what will be regarded as true worship bestowed upon God. All these things we do for our fellow man go to the honor of God’s image and build up treasures in the kingdom to come.

Have a great day

Well the early Christians certainly had images of Jesus. The catacombs make that clear. I’m not sure if your religion is trinitarian but we believe Jesus was God and plenty of people saw him.

 

[SwizzleStick]

That is real good, and I like your unique name as well.

Thank you and thank you!

 

[po18guy]

However, if pressed I would say that I tend not to believe in a literal, eternal hell. If God expects us to forgive one another 70 x 7 times - infinitely - I am inclined to think he does the same…I’m contend to put my trust in the wisdom and compassion of God, try to live as good a life as I can, and not fret about the life beyond. .

If you go by the bible, Jesus was specific that hell exists and that it is eternal punishment. On a purely human level, the bible is only printed words and you may interpret them to suit you. More important is your eternal destiny, about which more is known that you might currently think.

 

[Roy5]

As I said, you’re entitled to your opinion. But gee, Roy, you are ONE person and you are extrapolating what you saw at exactly HOW many Catholic Churches as if when they ‘removed’ statues it was ONLY because they thought they had been overboard before.

Roy, there are MANY reasons that the FEW PARTICULAR Churches you saw may have ‘removed statues’. And let me tell you, even IF (big IF) the one priest who made that decision did it for the reason you claim, he was not doing so because this was the Church’s reasoning, but because he (personally, on his own), made that ERROR.

But there are other reasons. First, some of the statues may have been old. Statues need upkeep. It could have cost more, to a parish that was struggling for financial reasons of any kind, to ‘keep up’ certain statues rather than remove them.

You know though, if I happened to draw on MY experience of going to Protestant churches, of which I have visited probably at least a couple of hundred, and claim that compared to the churches I saw in the 1960s which were very stark and plain,and the churches in the 2000s which are much more ornate and which (and this will probably surprise you Roy) actually have begun to incorporate things such as altar linens, stained glass, much more CEREMONY, and said that OBVIOUSLY this proved that the protestant churches today have realized their error (past) in being dingy mingy places and have instead striven, as the Catholic Churches have traditionally done, to be places of sacred, beautiful, and more formal space, you would probably have conniption fits that I could even THINK of making such a judgment based on such a small sample. Even if that sample is limited to only two specific Protestant denominations, you’d still complain that it would be ridiculous to make that kind of judgement based on simply my experiences.

And just to make it clear, you’re arguing an ‘either or’ as if God had NOTHING to do with weather on the planet. Kind of deist thought,. . .that God who created everything just ‘lets it go’ without any thought in the world.

And I have a both-and. No I do not believe that God is a Calvinistic kind of God who deliberately ‘sets up’ people (Peter, take a memo. July 17, 2015, I want a category 3 tornado to hit Peoria, Illinois and take out 73-year-old Ed because the night before Ed is going to hit his wife) to be killed in weather disasters. BUT since God also knows what is going to happen at any given moment, it is entirely possible that He can “use” everything, including a weather event, EXACTLY AS HE wills. And it will be totally just when He does.

Too many points to tackle. It is true that some mainline Protestant churches are somewhat more liturgical than they may have been. This was encouraged by the ecumenical movement following Vatican II, when Catholicism seemed to become less liturgical, adopted vernacular languages, priests faced the people, and various other changes. Mainline Protestantism generally is very ecumenical. I am old enough to remember when all this ecumenism started - in, say, 1963, when Protestants no longer were heretics but separated brothers and sisters, when we began to have services together. Before that Catholics had been told that it was a serious sin to participate in worship in a Protestant church. Even in mainline churches, however, there is much more freedom when it comes to liturgy. The typical Methodist or Presbyterian Church, for example, may have a laity Sunday when a layman preaches, a youth Sunday when a teenager preaches, etc. Some go by the common lectionary, some do not. This often depends on the minister. There is no required worship script sent down from a hierarchy above. Lutherans and Episcopalians, of course, always have been quite liturgical - nothing new there. But even these churches can vary in different ways.

Now, in evangelical churches there still is very, very little ritual compared with Catholicism. They are not ‘prayerbook’ churches.

As for stained glass windows, they always have existed in many Protestant churches. The difference tends to be that - for example - Mary doesn’t take such center stage as in Catholicism. This doesn’t mean that Madonna and the Infant Jesus will never be found in a window. Protestants are not anti-Mary after all. They simply feel that such doctrines as the Immaculate Conception (1864) and the Assumption (1950) - years they were defined - are not Biblical. They are based on tradition. I always was struck by the absence of a single reference to Mary in all of the epistles written to early church by St. Paul and others. And, of course, the parents of Mary are not mentioned in scripture.

That’s it for now. FYI I taught comparative religions in college for awhile and during those years became a rather serious student of different religions. I always have felt that religion should be a bridge and not a barrier. God bless good people of every creed, color, culture and country. Too often too many Christians have outwardly embraced humility, peace and love while actually promoting arrogance, division and bigotry.