The tree of knowledge and misunderstanding of evil among Catholic!

[grannymh]

How a tree could be evil and good if good means the lack of good? Can you imagine such a state of being? You cannot.

The name of the forbidden tree is simply weird to some, not all, modern folk who have no idea that there cannot be two equal almighty Creator Gods.

 

[grannymh]

How a tree could be evil and good if good means the lack of good? Can you imagine such a state of being? You cannot.

By the way, when exploring the first three chapters of Genesis, it is context, context, context. As the queen of cherry picking, I do recognize that some verses stand out like lightning on a summer night. However, the outstanding verses do have backup some place in the centuries since the dawn of real human history.

 

[Bahman]

You actually *doubt *that they disobeyed when they were given a strict command, which they, er, disobeyed? When God told them not to eat of the fruit do you think that, by eating of it, they were obeying?

That is not my main point. All I am claiming is that the fruit is paradoxical concept since eating it grant the knowledge of good and evil. My claim is very simple: something which is good cannot be evil since evil means the lack of good!

And, BTW, the *only *way they became like God is that, after their sin, they knew sin, which means they now knew good and evil, because they now knew evil-they were aware of it- where before they were innocent of it. Big deal, wow, they really gained a lot.

Please read the previous comment.

 

[Bahman]

The Catholic faith is logical, true, and internally consistent. Your claim that Catholics misunderstand evil is based on your faulty interpretation of Sacred Scripture, proving once again that the authority of the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, is the only way Scripture can be interpreted.

What is description of evil according to Church teach guided by holy Spirit: Evil is the lack of good. How a fruit could be good and evil at the same time? This is a illogical concept since when a fruit is good then it cannot be evil since evil is the lack of good.

What language do you read the Bible in? English is obviously not your mother tongue.

Yes.

 

[Bahman]

The name of the forbidden tree is simply weird to some, not all, modern folk who have no idea that there cannot be two equal almighty Creator Gods.

Why not? There could exist many similar Gods which all act in the same way. Moreover you didn’t address the paradox I explain: How something could be good and evil at the same time?

 

[Bahman]

By the way, when exploring the first three chapters of Genesis, it is context, context, context. As the queen of cherry picking, I do recognize that some verses stand out like lightning on a summer night. However, the outstanding verses do have backup some place in the centuries since the dawn of real human history.

Could you please give me some examples?

Apparently, the book contains many mythes too:

1. Creation of Adam and Eve (we know today that we are the result of evolution)
2. Creation of Sun and earth ( we know today that they were formed)
3. Three of knowledge

Perhaps there are more if you read the book literary.

 

[fhansen]

That is not my main point. All I am claiming is that the fruit is paradoxical concept since eating it grant the knowledge of good and evil. My claim is very simple: something which is good cannot be evil since evil means the lack of good!

Please read the previous comment.

EVERTHING in creation is inherently good. This is simply because God created everything and everything He creates is good. So, as Augustine put it, “The only possible source of evil is good.” IOW evil is the diminishing or twisting or corruption or detraction from the perfection of the goodness that a being was created in.

 

[Bahman]

EVERTHING in creation is inherently good. This is simply because God created everything and everything He creates is good. So, as Augustine put it, “The only possible source of evil is good.” IOW evil is the diminishing or twisting or corruption or detraction from the perfection of the goodness that a being was created in.

You didn’t pay attention to my argument.

 

[Hunho]

Bible claim that there is a tree with a fruit which grand the knowledge of good and evil. Catholics claim that evil is the absence of good which make the existence of fruit impossible. The fruit cannot be good and evil (absence of good) at the same time.

There is contradiction which apparently no Catholic has ever noticed. Please read the above comment.

So please read the first comment.

So Church authority judged what is written in the Bible about the fruit is symbolic? What is wrong with the plain truth?

Yeah, in another place it is clearly mention that the fruit gives the knowledge of good and evil.

I just claim that what is written in the Bible about the fruit is literal. You claim that it is symbolic yet you do not provide any evidence that why God should talk in symbolic way in this very position when this could lead to a great misunderstanding. Oh yes, that was a test for Adam and Eve and the main issue was about disobedience! Is there any place in Bible which claims that God wanted to punish them because of disobedience? No. Instead it is clearly mentioned that they gained the knowledge of good and bad.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 390 The account of the fall in *Genesis *3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265
[Emphasis added]

264 Cf. GS 13 § 1.
265 Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513; Pius XII: DS 3897; Paul VI: AAS 58 (1966), 654.​

 

[fhansen]

You didn’t pay attention to my argument.

I’ll take that to mean you have no answer for mine.

 

[grannymh]

Why not? There could exist many similar Gods which all act in the same way. Moreover you didn’t address the paradox I explain: How something could be good and evil at the same time?

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion.
My own opinion is based on Catholic Teaching. Therefore, there can only be one God.

I do not intend to explain the paradox about how something could be good and evil at the same time. Because I address the forbidden tree with the weird name according to Catholic teachings, I do not have to address how something could be good and evil at the same time.

Please accept my apology. I have decided not to reply to post 86. My reasons are personal.

 

[fhansen]

That is not my main point. All I am claiming is that the fruit is paradoxical concept since eating it grant the knowledge of good and evil. My claim is very simple: something which is good cannot be evil since evil means the lack of good!

The knowledge of good and evil means the awareness-by direct experience-of good and evil. Prior to the Fall man wasn’t aware of either as separate realities: since everything was good in their experience, good wasn’t identifiable until evil was known, and could therefore be contrasted with. The knowledge is beneficial only to the extent that it ultimately causes us to decide: to choose the good over the evil, life over death, God over no God.

 

[Bahman]

The knowledge of good and evil means the awareness-by direct experience-of good and evil. Prior to the Fall man wasn’t aware of either as separate realities: since everything was good in their experience, good wasn’t identifiable until evil was known, and could therefore be contrasted with. The knowledge is beneficial only to the extent that it ultimately causes us to decide: to choose the good over the evil, life over death, God over no God.

All you said is good. You however didn’t answer my question: How a fruit could be good and evil?

 

[fhansen]

All you said is good. You however didn’t answer my question: How a fruit could be good and evil?

I’m not sure why you would you say that the fruit is both good and evil. It gave the knowledge of good and evil, but there is no indication that even this was good. In Catholicism evil is never willed by God but He can use it nonetheless to bring about an even greater good in the end.

 

[Hunho]

What is description of evil according to Church teach guided by holy Spirit: Evil is the lack of good. How a fruit could be good and evil at the same time? This is a illogical concept since when a fruit is good then it cannot be evil since evil is the lack of good.

Yes.

This is the definition of evil given by the Catholic Church, taken from the Glossary included in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:EVIL: The opposite or absence of good. One form of evil, physical evil, is a result of the “state of journeying” toward its ultimate perfection in which God created the world, involving the existence of the less perfect alongside the more perfect, the constructive and the destructive forces of nature, the appearance and disappearance of certain beings (310). Moral evil, however, results from the free choice to sin which angels and men have; it is permitted by God, who knows how to derive good from it, in order to respect the freedom of his creatures (311). The entire revelation of God’s goodness in Christ is a response to the existence of evil (309, 385, 1707). The devil is called the Evil One.

The numbers in parentheses are references to paragraphs in the *Catechism of the Catholic Church.

*You have been using only part of the Catholic Church’s understanding of evil, and the less important part at that. The deeper meaning of the concept of evil is this, the opposite of good. The “absence of good” is more of a symptom of evil than a cause of evil. It is certainly not the real meaning of evil.

 

[grannymh]

The knowledge of good and evil means the awareness-by direct experience-of good and evil. Prior to the Fall man wasn’t aware of either as separate realities: since everything was good in their experience, good wasn’t identifiable until evil was known, and could therefore be contrasted with. The knowledge is beneficial only to the extent that it ultimately causes us to decide: to choose the good over the evil, life over death, God over no God.

Please check out Genesis 2: 15-17. That certainly sounds like Adam, prior to his original sin, was aware of both good and evil. The follow up verse is Genesis 3: 11.

 

[Bahman]

I’m not sure why you would you say that the fruit is both good and evil. It gave the knowledge of good and evil, but there is no indication that even this was good. In Catholicism evil is never willed by God but He can use it nonetheless to bring about an even greater good in the end.

Eating the fruit had a functioning, namely to grant the knowledge of good and evil, so good and evil must be the properties of the fruit since Adam and Eve were made good.

 

[Bahman]

This is the definition of evil given by the Catholic Church, taken from the Glossary included in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:EVIL: The opposite or absence of good. One form of evil, physical evil, is a result of the “state of journeying” toward its ultimate perfection in which God created the world, involving the existence of the less perfect alongside the more perfect, the constructive and the destructive forces of nature, the appearance and disappearance of certain beings (310). Moral evil, however, results from the free choice to sin which angels and men have; it is permitted by God, who knows how to derive good from it, in order to respect the freedom of his creatures (311). The entire revelation of God’s goodness in Christ is a response to the existence of evil (309, 385, 1707). The devil is called the Evil One.

The numbers in parentheses are references to paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You have been using only part of the Catholic Church’s understanding of evil, and the less important part at that. The deeper meaning of the concept of evil is this, the opposite of good. The “absence of good” is more of a symptom of evil than a cause of evil. It is certainly not the real meaning of evil.

I am afraid that I couldn’t go through the link. It would be kind of you if you define evil in the thread: 1) absence of good, 2) opposite of good. Which one do you pick up?

 

[Elizium23]

I am afraid that I couldn’t go through the link. It would be kind of you if you define evil in the thread: 1) absence of good, 2) opposite of good. Which one do you pick up?

It is both, as the quote said. Please pay attention!

 

[808Catholic]

Then the LORD God said: “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.”

According to the above verse, apparently the reason for Adam and Eve punishment was not disobedience. Adam and Eve just became like them. Why they should be punished when they become like others? By they way where is written in Bible that the reason for Adam and Eve punishment was literally God disobedience?

So, by your reasoning, Adam and Eve, both created by God, raised themselves up by eating of the Tree of Knowledge and God decided to kick them out of the garden because they might eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. Now that they knew good from evil, could not God just have given them a command to not eat of the Tree of Life? And if they did, God being their Creator, could kill them in punishment, yes? Why, in following your logic, would God be forced to expel them from the garden?

If Eternal God, without beginning or end, created a creature who could eat the fruit of a tree He created and become like God, would that mean that God is NOT God but simply a great magician? God has no beginning or end; He was not created. Yet, by your logic, He created creatures who could become like Him but He has no beginning so He could not have created such creatures and they could not become like Him.

If you depend on everything written in the Bible as the ONLY direction from God, you would hold the partial truth as many of our wayward brothers and sisters do today. I’m not saying Catholics have ALL the truth but we are closer because we have Tradition and the Magisterium that’s been pondering these very issues for over 2,000 years. While there is no statement why they were ejected from the garden, we can see from other examples in the Bible where people disobey God and are punished.