The two major differences between Catholicism and Protestantism

[Belloc_Fan]

I personally would not divide over the issue of communion, for it is the Lord’s Table where all true Christians partake. I don’t think any particular Christian community has a monopoly in what He has provided as a means of grace for his children in regards to the sacraments of baptism and communion. It seems prideful to boast that your particular sacrament is superior to my Christian communities sacrament. Think about it, the Catholic Church acknowledges all Triune baptisms as being completely valid in uniting sinners to Christ, even though Protestants do not see baptism as the means of regeneration.

So far as I can tell, the Eucharist is the single best reason for schism, perhaps the only good one. The debate over justification is silly. We both believe a saved person’s life exhibits faith and works; we both believe that these are both possibly only through the grace of God permitting and empowering us to believe and to obey (work); we both agree that you can’t work your way to Heaven. We think that you can believe and not obey, just as James 2 says, but *sola fide *Protestants say this isn’t Faith (James says it is, but it’s a dead Faith). C.S. Lewis rightly said that this was like arguing over which end of the scissors does the cutting.

On the other hand, if we’re wrong about the Eucharist, we’re dedicating our lives to the worship and service of a piece of Bread. If we’re right, we have Jesus Christ, Flesh and Blood, in our Mass. So either we have something far surpassing what Protestant services have (that is, they have the word of God and His spiritual Presence; we have the word of God *and *the Word, in His Physical, Real Presence), or we have an idol which casts us (and all of Christianity prior to 1517) outside of Christendom.

This is arguably more important that determining whether God is three Persons or just One, because we’re arguing if the Eucharist IS or IS NOT God. How is that not worth the fight? Certainly, the Eucharist is the key of unity, like you suggest. As St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians, “Because there is one Loaf, we, who are many, are one Body, for we all partake of the one Loaf.” So the Eucharist has the power to make us part of the Church; conversely, if we take it unworthily, we eat and drink damnation upon ourselves, as Paul’s next chapter demonstrates (1 Corinthians 11:29). So this is the make-or-break issue for Paul: you either become a full member of the Body with the Eucharist, or you damn yourself.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So far as I can tell, the Eucharist is the single best reason for schism, perhaps the only good one. The debate over justification is silly. We both believe a saved person’s life exhibits faith and works; we both believe that these are both possibly only through the grace of God permitting and empowering us to believe and to obey (work); we both agree that you can’t work your way to Heaven. We think that you can believe and not obey, just as James 2 says, but *sola fide *Protestants say this isn’t Faith (James says it is, but it’s a dead Faith). C.S. Lewis rightly said that this was like arguing over which end of the scissors does the cutting.

On the other hand, if we’re wrong about the Eucharist, we’re dedicating our lives to the worship and service of a piece of Bread. If we’re right, we have Jesus Christ, Flesh and Blood, in our Mass. So either we have something far surpassing what Protestant services have (that is, they have the word of God and His spiritual Presence; we have the word of God *and *the Word, in His Physical, Real Presence), or we have an idol which casts us (and all of Christianity prior to 1517) outside of Christendom.

This is arguably more important that determining whether God is three Persons or just One, because we’re arguing if the Eucharist IS or IS NOT God. How is that not worth the fight? Certainly, the Eucharist is the key of unity, like you suggest. As St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians, “Because there is one Loaf, we, who are many, are one Body, for we all partake of the one Loaf.” So the Eucharist has the power to make us part of the Church; conversely, if we take it unworthily, we eat and drink damnation upon ourselves, as Paul’s next chapter demonstrates (1 Corinthians 11:29). So this is the make-or-break issue for Paul: you either become a full member of the Body with the Eucharist, or you damn yourself.

That’s very insightful, and thank you for posting that. I guess from a Catholic perspctive, the Eucharist makes that Catholic church unique, with the exception of Orthodox churches. I have always believed and still believe today that a forensic justification is the essential division between Catholics and Protestants. In my view, the truth of imputed justification is the heart of the gospel since it is about what Christ actually accomplished for sinners to the praise of His sufficent and complete grace.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

I think your theological positons have moved you outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp in regards to theology. It’s okay, because the real division is in our union with either Adam or the 2nd Adam. Sure, I don’t mind considering all of the NT books including James, Hebrews, Peter, etc. Paul and James are equally true in what they write. We know it is impossible for God to lie. It is impossible for Him to contradict Himself. These are only apparent contradictions or paradoxes, but I have no problems discussing these things in the light of all of Scripture. I truly believe the best systematic theology is Reformed theology.

I think you should check out Evangelicals and Catholics Together (leaderu.com/ect/ectmenu.html) and Fr. William Most’s Grace, Predesination, and the Salvific Will of God (catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=214). Both are free, both are worth your time.

 

[Anna_Scott]

2nd Adam: I really do not see your logic in proving that Protestantism is older than Catholicism. We, as Protestants, share a common history with Catholics up to the point of the Protestant Reformation. I’m not denying God’s eternal plan for salvation and reconciliation.

Regarding your reference to redemption by the grace of God alone or salvation by faith alone; what Scriptures are you using to support this belief?

In Christ,
Anna

I think the best Scripture to support grace alone through the instrument of faith by the person and work of Christ alone would be the entire books of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, John, etc. . Those united to Christ worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, right?

2nd Adam: Your answer is somewhat evasive. You failed to consider Scriptures in Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, and 1 John.

It is very clear that we are not saved by faith/grace alone. Works must accompany faith. That does not mean that we are able to “earn our salvation”; but we must consider the N.T. as a whole–actually the Bible as a whole.

The N.T. tells us that Abraham was justified by works. See **James 2:21-22 (ESV): **21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

John 5:25-29 (NASB):
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV):
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 12:14-16 (NIV):
14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

James 2:14-18(ESV):
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Footnotes: a. James 2:16 Or benefit

James 2:21-26 (ESV):
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

2 Peter 3:16-18 (NIV):
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

1 John 2:4-6 (NIV):
4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I am a Protestant Christian, too. It’s just that we have to move beyond the Sunday Sermons and Lessons that cite only selected Scripture.

I would urge you to prayerfully read the Bible cover-to-cover, and also study Church history. Be brave enough to read books by authors outside your Denomination.

In Christ,
Anna

I think your theological positons have moved you outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp in regards to theology. It’s okay, because the real division is in our union with either Adam or the 2nd Adam. Sure, I don’t mind considering all of the NT books including James, Hebrews, Peter, etc. Paul and James are equally true in what they write. We know it is impossible for God to lie. It is impossible for Him to contradict Himself. These are only apparent contradictions or paradoxes, but I have no problems discussing these things in the light of all of Scripture. I truly believe the best systematic theology is Reformed theology.

**
2nd Adam:** Ironically, a widely held view in Protestantism is “Sola Scriptura” (which I no longer accept); yet when I place Scriptures in front of you that clearly deny salvation by grace or faith alone, you respond by telling me that my “theological position has moved outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp.”

In Christ,
Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think you should check out Evangelicals and Catholics Together (leaderu.com/ect/ectmenu.html) and Fr. William Most’s Grace, Predesination, and the Salvific Will of God (catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=214). Both are free, both are worth your time.

Thanks for those docs. I remember when ECT 1 and ECT II came out years ago. I think those agreements were a Protesant compromise. It’s the absence of the word alone behind the word of Faith. Theologically, there will never be a bridge to Orthodox Catholicism and historic Protestantism. The Catholic Church cannot rescend the Council of Trent, which sealed our dividing line on this side of glory. However, I have grown to understand that doctrinal distinctives although are very important (Jude 3), that God still saves sinners in-spite of our doctrinal errors in all christian camps. Heck, most modern day Protestants are more consistent with the Catholic Faith than historic protestantism since both views are synergestic in nature. Reformed Theology is radical, but I believe those unique views are grounded in Scripture to the praise and glory of God alone. I’m not so much of making much of mankind and his goodness. I don’t understand the need of fighting for the idea of free will since we all rebelled in Adam. I am more amazed of what God has done for us in Christ while we were still His enemies, God justifying the wicked. Heck, the hymn of Amazing Grace which Catholics sing was written by a staunch Calvinist and all that goes with Calvinism theology. IMO… the strenght of Calvinism is being a God-centered theology grounded in all of Scripture.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thanks for those docs. I remember when ECT 1 and ECT II came out years ago. I think those agreement were a Protesant compromise. It’s the absence of the word alone in front of Faith. Theologically, there will never be a bridge to Orthodox Catholicism and historic Protestantism. The Catholic Church cannot rescend the Council of Trent, which sealed our dividing line on this side of glory. However, it have grown to understand that doctrinal distinctives although are very important (Jude 3), God saves sinners in-spite all of our doctrinal errors in all christian camps that are created. Heck, most modern day Protestants are more consistent with the Catholic Faith than historic protestantism since both fews are synergestic in nature. Reformed Theology is radical, but I believe those unique views are grounded in Scripture to the praise and glory of God alone. I’m not so much of making much of mankind and his goodness. I am more amazed of what God has done for us in Christ while we were still His enemies, God justifying the wicked. Heck, the hymn of Amazing Grace which Catholics sing was written by a staunch Calvinist and all that goes with Calvinism theology.

2nd Adam: You write many words, yet say so little. Where is the substance in your arguments? You are throwing around words and phrases like First Adam, Second Adam, Reformed Theology, Dispensationalism, Calvinism, Orthodox Catholicism, Historic Protestantism, etc. Unfortunately, you aren’t really saying anything of substance. I’m starting to wonder if you really know what any of these things really mean. You seem to use these terms to avoid a direct discussion about your beliefs.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

**
2nd Adam:** Ironically, a widely held view in Protestantism is “Sola Scriptura” (which I no longer accept); yet when I place Scriptures in front of you that clearly deny salvation by grace or faith alone, you respond by telling me that my “theological position has moved outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp.”

In Christ,
Anna

Anna,

These are some very deep theological issues which need an entire thread to discuss. They are historical in nature. The Protestant Reformers split from the Catholic Church based on Scripture. I’m not sure what general points you are trying to make or want to discuss. Are you saying that we are not saved by grace alone, because both Catholics and Protestants would agree on grace alone? Maybe we can start with what you mean of being “in Christ”?

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam: You write many words, yet say so little. Where is the substance in your arguments? You are throwing around words and phrases like First Adam, Second Adam, Reformed Theology, Dispensationalism, Calvinism, Orthodox Catholicism, Historic Protestantism, etc. Unfortunately, you aren’t really saying anything of substance. I’m starting to wonder if you really know what any of these things really mean. You seem to use these terms to avoid a direct discussion about your beliefs.

In Christ,
Anna

Maybe I’m not sure where you are coming from. The words I wrote mean something in a theological sense. It’s okay if you don’t believe what I posted, or think that I know much. Forum site conversations have their limitations.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’m just a Christian who knows in part. I only use the term Calvinism so you can have an overview of my theological convictions.

 

[MDK]

I think your theological positons have moved you outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp in regards to theology. It’s okay, because the real division is in our union with either Adam or the 2nd Adam. Sure, I don’t mind considering all of the NT books including James, Hebrews, Peter, etc. Paul and James are equally true in what they write. We know it is impossible for God to lie. It is impossible for Him to contradict Himself. These are only apparent contradictions or paradoxes, but I have no problems discussing these things in the light of all of Scripture. I truly believe the best systematic theology is Reformed theology.

Jesus founded and built the “Catholic Camp”. It’s a very good place to be. Without the Catholic teachings, we have no assurance whatsoever of what Scriptures authentically mean. Your posts are a good example of someone not relying on Catholicism, and not knowing what Scriptures mean… which is to say you don’t understand the written Godly Tradition authored by God’s Catholic Church under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Jesus founded and built the “Catholic Camp”. It’s a very good place to be. Without the Catholic teachings, we have no assurance whatsoever of what Scriptures authentically mean. Your posts are a good example of someone not relying on Catholicism, and not knowing what Scriptures mean… which is to say you don’t understand the written Godly Tradition authored by God’s Catholic Church under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for sharing your conviction. All I know that there is one true camp that really matters for eternity.

 

[MDK]

Thanks for sharing your conviction. All I know that there is one true camp that really matters for eternity.

I hope you do make it to that camp, and that will mean that you’ve become Catholic. God’s Catholic Church exists in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on Earth. No, you don’t always have to become Catholic before leaving this earth. However, it’s only by invincible ignorance that you get a pass on not being Catholic during the Earthly part. So, unless you’re invincibly ignorant, then it’s better to get on board now. Anyone who truly loves God would want to be in His Church to authentically know the truth. Neither the do-it-yourself approach to Christianity, nor will teachings of other ecclesial communities allegedly based on our Catholic Bible (but is normally some distortion thereof) will lead to the fullness of God’s revealed truth. If you truly love and know God, you’ll love and know His one Church as well, which is God’s Kingdom on Earth… the Catholic Church.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I hope you do make it to that camp, and that will mean that you’ve become Catholic. God’s Catholic Church exists in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on Earth. No, you don’t always have to become Catholic before leaving this earth. However, it’s only by invincible ignorance that you get a pass on not being Catholic during the Earthly part. So, unless you’re invincibly ignorant, then it’s better to get on board now. Anyone who truly loves God would want to be in His Church to authentically know the truth. Do-it-yourself “Christianity” nor other ecclesial communities will lead to the fullness of God’s revealed truth. If you truly love and know God, you’ll love and know His one Church as well, which is God’s Kingdom on Earth… the Catholic Church.

It seems you are saying that I need to become a member of the Catholic Church to be truly united to Christ, correct? Interesting… to say the least. Why don’t you join us at the Christian Unity Thread and you might be able to see me as your brother in Christ. There are some really neat Catholics on that thread. I hope you don’t mind that I have a pass and go Monopoly card that will allow me to skip Purgatory on the way to the Celestrial City.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=375284

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I personally would not divide over the issue of communion, for it is the Lord’s Table where all true Christians partake. I don’t think any particular Christian community has a monopoly in what He has provided as a means of grace for his children in regards to the sacraments of baptism and communion. It seems prideful to boast that your particular sacrament is superior to my Christian communities sacrament. Think about it, the Catholic Church acknowledges all Triune baptisms as being completely valid in uniting sinners to Christ, even though Protestants do not see baptism as the means of regeneration.

We are addressing differences here 2nd Adam, lets not evade them, if we are to seek reconciliation.

A fundamental difference here is the understanding of communion with our Father in heaven through the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic church (communion of Saints), which Catholics call “full communion”. It is error to judge the body and blood of Jesus Christ as one who views in a form of a monopoly, this terminology is not acceptable in the Spiritual realities of “Truth”. Discernment of the body and blood of Jesus Christ is required here.

You have misunderstood my commentary of the differences not superiority of your Protestant belief in communion which is believed by Protestants as symbolic, and Catholic faith in the Real Presence.

I would like to point out to you about Holy Communion in the Catholic church, it is not for unbelievers, The blessed Sacrament are for those who have already entered into the Kingdom of God through Jesus by Baptism which saves you now.

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared,
5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, **he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, **
6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
8
This saying is trustworthy. 3 I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works;
these are excellent and beneficial to others.

1Peter 3:19
In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 6
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

Jesus is the only way to the Father, Jesus is the only way to reconciliation, Jesus has united all Christians since the resurrection in his body, blood soul and divinity in his Eucharist which Jesus himself instituted, not the Catholic Church of which you wrongly accused of Catholics claiming a monopoly too. The Catholic Church invites all nations and peoples in every age to the lambs supper, but first to enter the wedding feast, a bath of rebirth (regeneration) must take place first before you can discern the body, blood of Jesus Christ in his Eucharist.

Peace be with you

 

[Anna_Scott]

John 5:25-29 (NASB):
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV):
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 12:14-16 (NIV):
14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

James 2:14-18(ESV):
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Footnotes: a. James 2:16 Or benefit

James 2:21-26 (ESV):
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

2 Peter 3:16-18 (NIV):
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

1 John 2:4-6 (NIV):
4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I am a Protestant Christian, too. It’s just that we have to move beyond the Sunday Sermons and Lessons that cite only selected Scripture.

I would urge you to prayerfully read the Bible cover-to-cover, and also study Church history. Be brave enough to read books by authors outside your Denomination.

In Christ,
Anna

I think your theological positons have moved you outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp in regards to theology. It’s okay, because the real division is in our union with either Adam or the 2nd Adam. Sure, I don’t mind considering all of the NT books including James, Hebrews, Peter, etc. Paul and James are equally true in what they write. We know it is impossible for God to lie. It is impossible for Him to contradict Himself. These are only apparent contradictions or paradoxes, but I have no problems discussing these things in the light of all of Scripture. I truly believe the best systematic theology is Reformed theology.

**
2nd Adam:** Ironically, a widely held view in Protestantism is “Sola Scriptura” (which I no longer accept); yet when I place Scriptures in front of you that clearly deny salvation by grace or faith alone, you respond by telling me that my “theological position has moved outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp.”

In Christ,
Anna

Anna,

These are some very deep theological issues which need an entire thread to discuss. They are historical in nature. The Protestant Reformers split from the Catholic Church based on Scripture. I’m not sure what general points you are trying to make or want to discuss. Are you saying that we are not saved by grace alone, because both Catholics and Protestants would agree on grace alone? Maybe we can start with what you mean of being “in Christ”?

2nd Adam: My post, to which you replied, is not about what I mean by “being in Christ.” It is not about “deep theological issues which need an entire thread to discuss.”

Please focus: I responded to the issue you raised about “salvation by grace/faith alone,” by quoting Scriptures that clearly demonstrate that salvation is not by grace/faith alone.

You responded to these Scriptures by saying that my “theological position has moved outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp.”

It does not make sense to respond to “quotes of Scripture,” by accusing me of leaving the historic Protestant camp----when the historical Protestant camp claims “Sola Scriptura” or “Scripture alone.”

In summary, you still have not responded to the Scriptures I gave you–that clearly tell us we are not saved by faith alone.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[MDK]

It seems you are saying that I need to become a member of the Catholic Church to be truly united to Christ, correct? Interesting… to say the least. Why don’t you join us at the Christian Unity Thread and you might be able to see me as your brother in Christ. There are some really neat Catholics on that thread. I hope you don’t mind that I have a pass and go Monopoly card that will allow me to skip Purgatory on the way to the Celestrial City.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=375284

No, you just don’t understand properly. You are one of our separated brothers, not believing in the fullness of revealed truth. If you find that interesting, then you’ll love the rest of the story. Simply stated, even though God’s authentic Church considers you a separated brother, you do not believe and do as Jesus taught, and that’s why you’re separated. Some within the Church are no better, and so it’s not simply a matter of being simply an official member of God’s Church.

You do not have a pass and go out of Purgatory, as you can’t grant that to yourself and Jesus never promised that in any Scripture (as authentically taught, and not simply any distortion you would prefer to believe).

Glad you have some neat Catholics there. If they’re truly neat, they will tell you the truth as I have. If they’re telling you that what you’re doing is a valid option, they are not neat at all, as they are lying to you. You, my friend are just fooling yourself. How long do you intend to keep fooling yourself?

 

[MDK]

…I hope you don’t mind that I have a pass and go Monopoly card that will allow me to skip Purgatory on the way to the Celestrial City.

This is one of the biggest lies of Protestantism and the Bible-alone crowd. All one has to do is actually read the Scriptures and you’ll see clearly it’s not true. Please use your God-given reason here, and stop following the false teachings of Protestantism, which separate you from God’s authentic Mystical Body, His one Church.

Jesus told us that no one gets to the Father without being perfect. Can you attain perfection before leaving earth?

Jesus also told us that unless we eat His Body and drink His Blood, we have no life in us. How do you do this? You can’t without valid and licit priesthood found in God’s Church. If you don’t eat His Body and drink His Blood, you have no life in you… how do you get into Heaven if Christ says you have no life in you?

Joyously, the Holy Spirit unites in Catholicism. Sadly, Satan divides in Protestantism.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I know that one of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism involves “Apostolic Succession.”

Would one of the Catholic Forum Members direct me to a list of this “Succession.” If this has been covered on another tread, please give me the link. I also welcome any books you may recommend.

Thank You,
Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam: My post, to which you replied, is not about what I mean by “being in Christ.” It is not about “deep theological issues which need an entire thread to discuss.”

Please focus: I responded to the issue you raised about “salvation by grace/faith alone,” by quoting Scriptures that clearly demonstrate that salvation is not by grace/faith alone.

You responded to these Scriptures by saying that my “theological position has moved outside the historic Protestant camp and maybe into the Catholic camp.”

It does not make sense to respond to “quotes of Scripture,” by accusing me of leaving the historic Protestant camp----when the historical Protestant camp claims “Sola Scriptura” or “Scripture alone.”

In summary, you still have not responded to the Scriptures I gave you–that clearly tell us we are not saved by faith alone.

In Christ,
Anna

Okay, let’s try to discuss this out. Christanity is a works righteousness salvation based on the work of another. We are not saved by our personal faith. Saving faith and repentance are gifts from God. Our faith is grounded in what Christ accomplished on our behalf. So, Christ saves us by His life and death, but we are not saved by our personal faith in Christ. We receive the merit of Christ through faith (Hebrews 11). Faith is simply the instrument in which the grace of God flows to us. Grace was merited by the person and work of Jesus Christ because of His perfect obedient sinless life earned favor with God (adoption, reconcilation, forgiveness, vessel of mercy). God blesses us with overflowing grace because we are united to Christ by faith; therefore, what Christ did is ours because we are in Him or united to Him (rom 5). His death is the other aspect of His work, which we are forgiven because He bore the wrath of God on our behalf. Christ’s work on our behalf is active and passive. How do you understand Ephesians 2:8-9 in light of the Scriptures that you posted, including James 2 and Hebrews 6? Again, faith does not save us, Jesus Christ saves us, or maybe the Triune God saves us. God the Father sent His Son to rescue us from our sin. Jesus merited full atonement and merited overflowing grace for us by fulling the righteous requirment of the law for us and paying the penalty for us as law breakers. The Spirit of God applies the work of Christ to us. So, salvation is a work of God to the praise of His glorious grace. The real question is about the sufficiency of the work of Christ on our behalf.

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. 7 It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, [4] both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. - Phil 1

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. -Phi 2

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is one of the biggest lies of Protestantism and the Bible-alone crowd. All one has to do is actually read the Scriptures and you’ll see clearly it’s not true. Please use your God-given reason here, and stop following the false teachings of Protestantism, which separate you from God’s authentic Mystical Body, His one Church.

Jesus told us that no one gets to the Father without being perfect. Can you attain perfection before leaving earth?

Jesus also told us that unless we eat His Body and drink His Blood, we have no life in us. How do you do this? You can’t without valid and licit priesthood found in God’s Church. If you don’t eat His Body and drink His Blood, you have no life in you… how do you get into Heaven if Christ says you have no life in you?

Joyously, the Holy Spirit unites in Catholicism. Sadly, Satan divides in Protestantism.

Here is the Protestant response to your post. What is God’s righteousness because we both agree perfect righteousness is required to enter Heaven? I can’t provide what God requires, nor could the Apostle Paul (Rom 7).

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.