The Universal Church

[lanman87]

How many?

If you want the exact number I would have to go back and look. I’ve been reading church history (and listening to lectures on church history) from both books and blogs for about three years now. I’'ve also been reading the ante nicene church fathers works.

At any rate, the number is irrelevant. It is what I’ve found that is interesting. Catholic and Protestant historians are in remarkable agreement on the events of church history. Catholic and Protestant theologians are in remarkable disagreement on what those events mean.

However, both Catholic and Protestant historians often contradict the history as given by the Catholic apologist. In the past I’ve quoted several of the Catholic historians and you dismiss them just as fast as you would dismiss a protestant historian.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Wannano:

lanman87:

This is a spinoff from a topic in another thread.

Are those that have faith in Christ, have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God by loving God and loving others, members of the universal church/the body of Christ? Even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere?

Pope Francis invited Christians of every denomination to join in prayer today. Christians from every church and community.

Is this not the Universal Church?

The operative word there is NOT

Look,

Ecumenical speak considered,

Said simply,

The CC sees Protestants, officially, regardless of stripe, as ecclesial communities, NOT Churches.

Officially I understand you are right. Unfortunately, you Steve, believe we are all headed for hell unless we join the CC. But officially, the CC calls us brothers and sisters in Christ. In Christ. That means we are Christians. Pope Francis, who I would think, bears more weight than you…called for the leaders and fellow Christians from all the various confessions to join with him in prayer on behalf of a shared troubled world. I interpreted that as a gesture of love and acceptance and a joining together of all people of prayer. That kind of action makes Catholicism much more attractive than the hate that is espoused by Pharisees within the Catholic laity.

Who put the consequences for schism and heresy for one who is in them? Me? NOPE!

I have a responsibility to let one who is in either one or both that the consequences for dying in either sin, is hell.

I didn’t invent that. I’m not the author of that. All I’m required to do is give the information. I don’t need agreement. Schism and heresy are deadly sins to be in.

If I didn’t say ANYTHING, or tried to dismiss those sins and those in them, as no big deal, and left one with that impression, then that would be a deadly sin on my part against charity on my part towards another individual. And since this particular thread has had to date, 10.4k “readers”, that tells me lots of people are being reached by what is said here.

 

[lanman87]

non-Catholics
Then proclaim something they aren’t.

That is why I started using the term Roman Catholic (I’m sorry if it offends anyone) but the fact is the Roman Catholic church is not the universal church. It is an oxymoron to say you have to be Roman to be Catholic. The term catholic has been changed, over time, to mean something different today than it did in the early church.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

How many?

If you want the exact number I would have to go back and look. I’ve been reading church history (and listening to lectures on church history) from both books and blogs for about three years now. I’'ve also been reading the ante nicene church fathers works.

Where’s the quotes then in your posts?
ianman87:

At any rate, the number is irrelevant. It is what I’ve found that is interesting. Catholic and Protestant historians are in remarkable agreement on the events of church history. Catholic and Protestant theologians are in remarkable disagreement on what those events mean.

However, both Catholic and Protestant historians often contradict the history and given by the Catholic apologist. In the past I’ve quoted several of the Catholic historians and you dismiss them just as fast as you would dismiss a protestant historian.

Newman did his homework. He wrote, and it can’t be refuted

"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant"

see section 5

Don’t stop there. Keep reading . Go to the beginning and see his argument

 

[lanman87]

“To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant”

Maybe for Newman. For me, reading history has shown the errors and contradictions in the claims of the Roman Catholic church.

 

[lanman87]

He wrote, and it can’t be refuted

I hate to be rude, but that is a laughable statement. I’ve seen Newman refuted several times.

 

[lanman87]

Where’s the quotes then in your posts?

I don’t understand that question. In this thread I’ve quoted several of the Ante Nicene fathers to you. And I predicted you would say they didn’t mean what I think they mean. And I was correct.

 

[MichaelP3]

Newman did his homework. He wrote, and it can’t be refuted

"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant"

see section 5

Don’t stop there. Keep reading . Go to the beginning and see his argument

See post #2530.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

steve-b:

Wannano:

lanman87:

This is a spinoff from a topic in another thread.

Are those that have faith in Christ, have been made new creations, are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and worship and serve God by loving God and loving others, members of the universal church/the body of Christ? Even if they are not part of the Catholic church and worship/serve elsewhere?

Pope Francis invited Christians of every denomination to join in prayer today. Christians from every church and community.

Is this not the Universal Church?

The operative word there is NOT

Look,

Ecumenical speak considered,

Said simply,

The CC sees Protestants, officially, regardless of stripe, as ecclesial communities, NOT Churches.

Officially I understand you are right. Unfortunately, you Steve, believe we are all headed for hell unless we join the CC. But officially, the CC calls us brothers and sisters in Christ. In Christ. That means we are Christians. Pope Francis, who I would think, bears more weight than you…called for the leaders and fellow Christians from all the various confessions to join with him in prayer on behalf of a shared troubled world. I interpreted that as a gesture of love and acceptance and a joining together of all people of prayer. That kind of action makes Catholicism much more attractive than the hate that is espoused by Pharisees within the Catholic laity.

Who put the consequences for schism and heresy for one who is in them? Me? NOPE!

I have a responsibility to let one who is in either one or both that the consequences for dying in either sin, is hell.

I didn’t invent that. I’m not the author of that. All I’m required to do is give the information. I don’t need agreement. Schism and heresy are deadly sins to be in.

If I didn’t say ANYTHING, or tried to dismiss those sins and those in them, as no big deal, and left one with that impression, then that would be a deadly sin on my part against charity on my part towards another individual. And since this particular thread has had to date, 10.4k “readers”, that tells me lots of people are being reached by what is said here.

Yes, Ianman was undoubtedly led by the Spirit to originate this thread. Hopefully you are right that many are being reached.

No doubt you are very organized and meticulous. You probably are very sincere. What you don’t seem to understand is that in your insistence that non-Catholics are divisive is staring you back in the face for your own Church does not any longer back you up. You in fact, are being divisive among your own Church by your own divisive insistence. Read the love chapter 1 Corinthians 13.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

non-Catholics
Then proclaim something they aren’t.

That is why I started using the term Roman Catholic (I’m sorry if it offends anyone) but the fact is the Roman Catholic church is not the universal church. It is an oxymoron to say you have to be Roman to be Catholic. The term catholic has been changed, over time, to mean something different today than it did in the early church.

Bp Irenaeus, one man away from an apostle, taught by Bp Polycarp, a direct disciple of John the apostle, wrote his work “Against Heresies”.

Your view, puts you directly in who Irenaeus writes against.

Bk 3 Ch 3, vv 1-3

 

[lanman87]

Your view, puts you directly in who Irenaeus writes against.

Your reading Irenaeus through a distinctly Roman Catholic lens. That is to say, a pre-concieved bias.

 

[steve-b]

Yes, Ianman was undoubtedly led by the Spirit to originate this thread. Hopefully you are right that many are being reached.

No doubt you are very organized and meticulous. You probably are very sincere. What you don’t seem to understand is that in your insistence that non-Catholics are divisive is staring you back in the face for your own Church does not any longer back you up. You in fact, are being divisive among your own Church by your own divisive insistence. Read the love chapter 1 Corinthians 13.

Do you understand that when I quote from the CCC

CCC = Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Therefore

When I quote definitions like

Definition:
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. " Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

That is current teaching of the Church, from the CCC

Do I need to list all the truths of faith that Protestants deny?

Protestantism is one of the great heresies in history

As a system of beliefs then, what does that mean for those who follow that system of beliefs?

 

[MichaelP3]

Do I need to list all the truths of faith that Protestants deny?

ACTUALLY please do that! Up to this point I am sure many of us have no idea what kind of Catholic you are.

But seriously. List all those truths so we have something to work with.

 

[lanman87]

Your view, puts you directly in who Irenaeus writes against.

Bk 3 Ch 3, vv 1-3

I also believe that Irenaeus was mistranslated, probably on purpose, from the Greek into Latin in order to prop up the Roman Church. The Roman Bishop was the one who oversaw the translation and he had motive to elevate the Roman church.

Unfortunately, no copies or or fragments that contain that phrase in the original greek survived. You can say I’m speculating that translation error occurred and I can say your speculating that it did not.

 

[Wannano]

Steve, does Jesus know you?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

steve-b:

Do I need to list all the truths of faith that Protestants deny?

ACTUALLY please do that! Up to this point I am sure many of us have no idea what kind of Catholic you are.

But seriously. List all those truths so we have something to work with.

Surely you jest!

 

[Isaac14]

It seems , you don’t understand the conditions, nor proper disposition spoken of

Then help me understand. Just linking to stuff or copy/pasting text doesn’t help me (or anyone else for matter) understand. I’ve laid out a few statements that reflect my understanding based on what you’ve posted on this thread. Please tell me which of my statements is incorrect or misunderstands the issues.

 

[MichaelP3]

Surely you jest!

No not at all! You have been “here” all the time by all your “likes”. Maybe you can even contribute? A post like that can certainly not go without any comments can it?

This is may be the perfect moment to see what you are all about. Your likes have made me concerned to be honest!

 

[AlNg]

Ask him.

How would you do that?

Steve, please correct me if I am misunderstanding things based on the properly referenced sources you’ve quoted:

1. Orthodox Christians are in mortal schism due to schism

This is another place where Steve is wrong.

The CC sees Protestants, officially, regardless of stripe, as ecclesial communities, NOT Churches.

Maybe you do, but the Vatican does not as on its website it refers several times to the Baptist Church.

Once one is shown the truth, and refuses to act on it, as in All those in division and heresy, and won’t come back into complete union with Our Lord’s Church, The Catholic Church, won’t see heaven.

So a Jew, Buddhist or a Hindu will not see heaven if they have studied Catholicism and refuse to act on it?

The Church of Rome was Peter’s last see.

AND

THAT is where his successors come from.

Where did Jesus say that the successors of Peter would be from Peter’s last See and not from his first See at Antioch? Or is this just an opinion which millions of people disagree with?

What you posted is an assumption upon an assumption

Of course.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Your view, puts you directly in who Irenaeus writes against.

Your reading Irenaeus through a distinctly Roman Catholic lens. That is to say, a pre-concieved bias.

Irenaeus is a Catholic Bishop in the Catholic Church Bk 1 Ch 10, p# 3. He is arguing from that position

When He writes all must agree with the Church of Rome on account of it’s pre-eminent authority, THAT is the position he writes from.

Irenaeus was from Smyrna, (in today, Turkey). He ultimately traveled West to Lyon, which is in { today, France )

You’re arguing through the same lens as the Gnostics of Irenaeus day that he was writing against