The Universal Church

[steve-b]

Margaret_Ann:

Ask him.

How would you do that?

Steve, please correct me if I am misunderstanding things based on the properly referenced sources you’ve quoted:

1. Orthodox Christians are in mortal schism due to schism

This is another place where Steve is wrong.

The CC sees Protestants, officially, regardless of stripe, as ecclesial communities, NOT Churches.

Maybe you do, but the Vatican does not as on its website it refers several times to the Baptist Church.

Once one is shown the truth, and refuses to act on it, as in All those in division and heresy, and won’t come back into complete union with Our Lord’s Church, The Catholic Church, won’t see heaven.

So a Jew, Buddhist or a Hindu will not see heaven if they have studied Catholicism and refuse to act on it?

The Church of Rome was Peter’s last see.

AND

THAT is where his successors come from.

Where did Jesus say that the successors of Peter would be from Peter’s last See and not from his first See at Antioch? Or is this just an opinion which millions of people disagree with?

What you posted is an assumption upon an assumption

Of course.

AlNg,

From: Vatican notes growing ecumenical consensus on what 'church' means

“From a Catholic perspective,” the Vatican said, “the term ‘church’ applies to the Catholic Church in communion with the bishop of Rome. It also applies to churches which are not in visible communion with the Catholic Church but have preserved the apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, remaining true particular churches. Other Christian communities which have not preserved the valid episcopacy and Eucharist are called ‘ecclesial communities’” in official Catholic documents.

As in,

officially, “ecclesial communities” pertains to all Protestant communities, regardless of name

AND

Re: Peter’s successor and his last see,

Succession of Peter, happen when Peter dies. As an example, Popes ordain bishops during their pontificate. That doesn’t equate to every bishop they ordain is a pope, or successor to that pope.

As For

The Church position on salvation,

From Vat II, Lumen Gentium para #14

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Whosoever = any body
Once one knows … THEN they make their decision

BTW, that comes from scripture and Tradition. If you want to see the quotes, just ask. I’ve posted them many times.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Do I need to list all the truths of faith that Protestants deny?

ACTUALLY please do that! Up to this point I am sure many of us have no idea what kind of Catholic you are.

But seriously. List all those truths so we have something to work with.

open the link I gave. You’ll see some of those errors listed

 

[MichaelP3]

open the link I gave. You’ll see some of those errors listed

I did. The link you provided refers to the 30 000 “Protestant” denominations and should therefore NOT be respected as being truthful in any sense but just plainly dishonest as this has been dealt with numerous times. So try again!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

He wrote, and it can’t be refuted

I hate to be rude, but that is a laughable statement. I’ve seen Newman refuted several times.

been reading Jack Chick have you?.

 

[MichaelP3]

You give Jack Chick much nore credit than he is due. Again see post #2530. Newman is relevant in very very limited circumstances.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

open the link I gave. You’ll see some of those errors listed

I did. The link you provided refers to the 30 000 “Protestant” denominations and should therefore NOT be respected as being truthful in any sense but just plainly dishonest as this has been dealt with numerous times. So try again!

30,000 needs to be increased. Just look at all the Protestant stories of a guy who wakes up one day and says I’m going to start a church.

EVERY ONE of those endeavors is its own sect. Its own division. Its own organization its own denomination.

 

[steve-b]

You give Jack Chick much nore credit than he is due. Again see post #2530. Newman is relevant in very very limited circumstances.

post 2530 doesn’t say what you think it says. Go there and you’ll see. 2530 isn’t 2530.

 

[MichaelP3]

post 2530 doesn’t say what you think it says.

LOL. Good reply… or not. Or rather easy reply as some 1000 replies on here. Try again and maybe anyone will start to see any relevance in Newman’s statement.

Edit.
Fair enough. 2529. Maybe you can teach me to link posts as links. That will save me time everytime I will link it for you.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

post 2530 doesn’t say what you think it says.

LOL. Good reply… or not. Or rather easy reply as some 1000 replies on here. Try again and maybe anyone will start to see any relevance in Newman’s statement.

Give quotes and properly reference them, to make your points. That’s what I do to make it easy for ANYONE who reads my post, to see where the information I give comes from.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

“To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant”

Maybe for Newman. For me, reading history has shown the errors and contradictions in the claims of the Roman Catholic church.

You don’t even read the links I give.

 

[CroatCatholic]

I’ll just say two things

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (no salvation outside the Church)

And

…even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans , Ch 8 - St Ignatius of Antioch

While we may have similiarities with others, the crucial thing is that they are seperated from the See of Peter and the Church. If I am wrong, correct me, but I think that salvation out of God’s flock is very hard.
(In these things I did not include unbaptized infants or people who lived good lives but were ignorant of Christ, the Gospel and His Church, I spoke of those who willingly remain outside the fulness of truth, and do not come into communion with the See of Peter and His Church.)

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

post 2530 doesn’t say what you think it says.

LOL. Good reply… or not. Or rather easy reply as some 1000 replies on here. Try again and maybe anyone will start to see any relevance in Newman’s statement.

Edit.
Fair enough. 2529. Maybe you can teach me to link posts as links. That will save me time everytime I will link it for you.

do you see the sideways 8 at the bottom of the post? (share a link to this post)

Click on that when you get to the post you want to link to. Copy the link making it a link that can easily be accessed.

 

[steve-b]

I’ll just say two things

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (no salvation outside the Church)

And

…even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans , Ch 8 - St Ignatius of Antioch

While we may have similiarities with others, the crucial thing is that they are seperated from the See of Peter and the Church. If I am wrong, correct me, but I think that salvation out of God’s flock is very hard.
(In these things I did not include unbaptized infants or people who lived good lives but were ignorant of Christ, the Gospel and His Church, I spoke of those who willingly remain outside the fulness of truth, and do not come into communion with the See of Peter and His Church. )

All true. It describes schism, which is a mortal sin. And we know what happens to the soul who dies in mortal sin

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

It seems , you don’t understand the conditions, nor proper disposition spoken of

Then help me understand. Just linking to stuff or copy/pasting text doesn’t help me (or anyone else for matter) understand. I’ve laid out a few statements that reflect my understanding based on what you’ve posted on this thread. Please tell me which of my statements is incorrect or misunderstands the issues.

I link to qualified sources to show where the information I give, comes from.

I also link to my sources, because it answers up front, the question I know is coming… where’s your source?

If people don’t read the resources provided, then so be it. Since there are over 10.5 k readers of this thread, that’s a lot of people who don’t participate, but read the thread.

All I can say

If I read someone’s post that has something interesting or controversial to say, and they give the reference up front, for the points being made, I appreciate that.

 

[gohjedrek]

EVERYTHING else is purely a corruption of Jesus own prayer

Jn 17:
20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

See the unconditional condition there?

Yes, the big issue is as many mentioned here, that they see it as the worldwide invisible church. I personally, have more of an open-minded view to this, preferring Lewis view over Newman position on the matter. Those who acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sin are hard to define as fully corrupt. I think it really boils down to the heart condition and discovery of truth. I personally go to the ordinariate church, because that is where I really found my faith to grow and nurture. It is going to differ for different people over here.

 

[lanman87]

been reading Jack Chick have you?.

Wow, and ad hominem attack. Very classy!

 

[lanman87]

You don’t even read the links I give.

Actually, I do. The problem is you keep given the same links over and over again and I’ve read it all before.

 

[lanman87]

You’re arguing through the same lens as the Gnostics of Irenaeus day that he was writing against

The gnostics didn’t believe in the incarnation, that Christ actually came in the flesh. They also taught that they had “secret” teachings of the apostles that were given only to them, and the only way to know the secret teachings was to become a gnostic. (which, ironically the Catholic church started teaching centuries later when they defined “Tradition” as oral teaching of the apostles handed down orally only to the Bishops)

Unless you think I believe those things (which I don’t), then I’m not reading through a gnostic lends.

 

[lanman87]

Where did Jesus say that the successors of Peter

Where did Jesus say anything about the successors of Peter?

 

[lanman87]

been reading Jack Chick have you?.

As far as Newman’s famous quote goes. “To be deep in history it to cease to be Protestant”. It is self repudiating. There are thousands of Protestants who have spent their lives studying history, in particular church history. If Newman was correct then all of those people who are “deep in History” would run to join the Roman Catholic church. To be fair, ,there are a few who have. But 99% (or more) haven’t. I know way more ex-catholics than I do ex-protestants.