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steve-b
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annad347
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I dont think you can say that, you can’t know someone died in mortal sin because they were kicked out of the Catholic church.
You have no idea what happened to them, even if they died the seconds after they were kicked out.
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Isaac14
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…then just use words and say it clearly and unambiguously.
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Isaac14
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How am I being deceptive?
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steve-b
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annad347:
read the post you respond to again.
Whatever sin THEY who are being refused entrance to heaven for, and are guilty of committing, it is sure that the sin(s) they committed were mortal, and they died in mortal sin.
annad347:
If Jesus said “I never knew you, away from me…” , that means they went to hell.
AND
The context is “few are saved”
Why did we need a savior?
Saved from WHAT?
Hell
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steve-b
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Already did. I gave the references.steve-b:
…then just use words and say it clearly and unambiguously.
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Isaac14
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So to be abundantly clear, you believe the Catholic Church teaches that each and every Orthodox Christian is guilty of the mortal sin of schism, correct?
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steve-b
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You won’t accept the links I gave on proper disposition.steve-b:
How am I being deceptive?
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steve-b
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This is how you practice deception.steve-b:
So to be abundantly clear, you believe the Catholic Church teaches that each and every Orthodox Christian is guilty of the mortal sin of schism, correct?
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AlNg
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He won’t give you a clear and unambiguous answer.
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steve-b
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The ambiguity going on here is one’s refusal to accept clear teaching on “proper disposition”Isaac14:
He won’t give you a clear and unambiguous answer.
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annad347
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What I mean is that you assume Jesus said that based on what you were taught… but in reality you have NO idea if He actually said it to those people. That’s why I said what.
IOW, unless you are God you have no idea if those people went straight to hell when they died…only God knows.
I dont have to read the contents of anything to know that we are not God.
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Isaac14
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Absolute baloney. I’ve read each and everyone and like a lot of other people in this thread, don’t see the same conclusion in those texts as you do.
And more specifically, for those that speak to proper disposition, they seem to speak primarily to Latin rite Catholics. They don’t s specifically say what proper disposition is for an Orthodox Christian who is in an exceptional circumstance and needs to partake per the exception that Canon 844 allows. You do realize these for extraordinary circumstances and not ordinary every day reception, right?
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Wannano
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Jesus did not say “I do not know you” …He said “I never knew you”. The whole while they thought they were good Christians, doing everything right and had all their ducks in a row, yet, He never knew them.
Each one of us needs to be careful we don’t have the attitude of " I thank you God that I am not like that other man"…
Each one of us needs to be careful we don’t have the attitude of " I thank you God that I am not like that other man"…
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Isaac14
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Baloney. I’ve asked you multiple times very clearly if I am stating things correctly or not. You have never corrected me.
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steve-b
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Did you even bother to read the full passage being quoted? The answer is there.steve-b:
What I mean is that you assume Jesus said that based on what you were taught… but in reality you have NO idea if He actually said it to those people. That’s why I said what.
Lk 13:
24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God.
What does "all you workers of eniquity" mean to you?
News flash
What is the context of Jesus saying what He did? The saved vs the unsaved, those who go to heaven (the narrow door) vs ( the wide door) those who aren’t saved, they go to hell .
v 23 that begins the quote
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?”
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mcq72
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Yes they are. Yet divisions are a way to show oneself approved of God…I mean if one is honest, that is at the root of a lot of divisions.
Again, it is not once right always right. The church did well to warn against Judaizing and Gnosticism and Arianism and other Christological issues. But to warn against not bowing to papal supreme authority over all bishops and patriarchs and rule over all other churches calling them communities only, the CC never erring, is going to an extreme to prove one’s church approved.
Have not seen your video but indeed many see such legalism above as a rejection of some sort of grace. Perhaps that is why some reformers cited faith and grace alone, because to cite an institution as only means of salvation is contrary to grace. And that is what gappened. The warnings and exhortations went beyond specific doctrines or dogmas as in the past, but were warnings and exhortations to obedience to a specific church’s heirarchy.
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mcq72
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Precisely. His guidance is perfect but reception is conditional upon level of abiding in Him, both personally and corporately. No where in bible do you see a perfect magisterium, but perfect enough to build the kingdom according to His pleasure. He opens doors and shuts doors. He lights candles and removes candles, even gives to another( I mean look what happened to Israel, )
Please show me where the unity is to Peter only?
We are all still here, including Judaism.
Indeed the Lord chooses leaders, but so do men at times. It is best to let the Lord do so, and not put Him in a box. We have seen what can happen in the good, bad, and ugly of westetn church history, before reformation, and after.
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annad347
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News Flash
So you understand and know the consequences of not giving yourself to God… of living in sin, of not repenting, of not allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you to do God will… that still doe NOT make you or any of us God.
Just because we understand how God will judge His children does not mean any of us gets a say of who will be allowed to enter that narrow doorway, be able to go through the eye of a needle or whom ST PETER will use the key to open those pearly gates for… or… when we cry Lord, Lord we do not get to say whom He does and doesnt know… nor do you get to say who are the FEW who God will allow to enter the heaven.
We are suppose to teach the word, teach the love of God and yes warn each other of the consequences… but where does it say we dictate what only God commands.
God gave us the rules, He told us what is what but He and only He is judge and jury for who goes straight to hell.
Just because He gave the apostles the Holy Spirit to forgive sin. He told them what is bound on earth is bound in heaven… that still does not make them more powerful then Him.
God and only God knows what happens to us.
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mcq72
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Those who teach that schism from Catholic Church by Orthodox or Protestants is mortal sin teach another gospel, and by that are schismatics themselves, in my opinion.
Such teaching is a work of inequity, in my opinion.
The CC is a bit two sided on this. The good news is that since Vat 2 there is some positive light, just enough to show the disposition of any particular Catholic heart by what side they choose to rest upon.
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