The Universal Church

[lanman87]

All this talk about Universal Church really makes me wonder what are genuinely peoples’ views on church, if you believe church is just a community of believers and that the physical church doesn’t matter or if you believe church is both a community of believers and physical church matters.

The word “Church” has multiple meanings in our modern English language.

1. The church is the elect or the saints, those born again by the Spirit and who have a living faith in Christ. The universal/catholic church, if you will.
2. The church is a local gathering of the saints in a physical place. This gathering is both physical and visible. But this gathering may (and usually does) contain both the “elect” (hopefully the majority of the gathering) and those who, for whatever reason, haven’t been born again by the Spirit and do not have an active and living faith in Christ. They may even be religious due to cultural, family, or personal reasons, but their heart hasn’t been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. They know how to go through the motions and the church culture but don’t have a living faith.
3. The church is a building, with a auditorium of some kind, a baptistry, and so forth. This may even be someone’s home (like it was in the 1st Century). It is still common for the “church” to meet in someone’s home in places where Christianity is persecuted. In particular China and Muslim countries.

Most of us would say that if you are part of group 1, you need to be and naturally have a desire to be in group 2.

 

[ArchStanton]

Lol…no you don’t understand.

Christ gives all authority . Exactly whose understanding of binding between us ( C’s, O’s, and P’s) is still up for grabs as to how heaven sees it. A matter of faith and conviction for now.

Christ gives all authority to His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. When you say ‘whose understanding of binding between us…’ you jump 1,500 years to the P.

 

[gohjedrek]

I don’t disagree with this viewpoint, I do believe church is more than just the physical building. However, the thing that I find challenging is those who say that the physical building is unnecessary, which makes me raise some doubts.

• The church is the elect or the saints, those born again by the Spirit and who have a living faith in Christ. The universal/catholic church, if you will.
• The church is a local gathering of the saints in a physical place. This gathering is both physical and visible. But this gathering may (and usually does) contain both the “elect” and those who, for whatever reason, haven’t been born again by the Spirit and do not have an active and living faith in Christ. They may even be religious due to cultural, family, or personal reasons, but their heart hasn’t been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. They know how to go through the motions and the church culture but don’t have a living faith.
• The church is a building, with a auditorium of some kind, a baptistry, and so forth. This may even be someone’s home (like it was in the 1st Century). It is still common for the “church” to meet in someone’s home in places where Christianity is persecuted. In particular China and Muslim countries.

Yes, my view is a collection of all three. The case in point, was that the person only believed in point one, hence I brought up the other two points to the person to talk about the significance of the church as a physical place.

 

[Isaac14]

Thank you. Does it say who clicks on those links, also I think if you Right Click on the link to open in in a new Tab or Window, which is what I do because I don’t like how the click covers up the forum, it doesn’t count the click… but I’m not positive if that part is true.

I don’t think it says who clicked the links - at least I haven’t figured out if it does. I think you’re correct about right-clicks not registering. I just tried it out on a few links in this thread and the counts didn’t change.

 

[mcq72]

Romans 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. . . .

Whose feet will God ultimately crush Satan under? The Church of Rome

Ok, by such logic of only applying promises in any epistle to said city church recipient, then only the Church of Ephesus wil be given to eat from the tree of life, and only the Church of Smyrna will not taste the second death, etc, etc.,etc.

 

[MichaelP3]

I think you’re correct about right-clicks not registering. I just tried it out on a few links in this thread and the counts didn’t change.

Me too. No change. I think we just solved 50% of this thread

 

[annad347]

I wish they had the LOL emoji where the heart is… some post make me laugh. LOL

 

[mcq72]

Christ gives all authority to His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. When you say ‘whose understanding of binding between us…’ you jump 1,500 years to the P.

And the O’s? That is per your history.

And agree, that where the church is holy, apostolic she is Catholic, any church.

We all agree to Nicene Creed.

 

[annad347]

Yes, my view is a collection of all three. The case in point, was that the person only believed in point one, hence I brought up the other two points to the person to talk about the significance of the church as a physical place.

I agree… all three of those points can be in the same building, not in 3 individual physical places.

I also agree that a physical church is important. He helps us to focus our attention of the reason to be in church. Helps us to understand the importance of things happening during service… but understanding church can be anywhere is important, helps us to remember God is everywhere.

 

[Wannano]

gohjedrek:

Yes, my view is a collection of all three. The case in point, was that the person only believed in point one, hence I brought up the other two points to the person to talk about the significance of the church as a physical place.

I agree… all three of those points can be in the same building, not in 3 individual physical places.

I also agree that a physical church is important. He helps us to focus our attention of the reason to be in church. Helps us to understand the importance of things happening during service… but understanding church can be anywhere is important, helps us to remember God is everywhere.

While I agree with you…Unless I am mistaken, without a special dispensation, Catholic Mass can only be celebrated in a Catholic Church building.

 

[annad347]

While I agree with you…Unless I am mistaken, without a special dispensation, Catholic Mass can only be celebrated in a Catholic Church building.

I don’t know. I’m sure someone here knows.

 

[ArchStanton]

And agree, that where the church is holy, apostolic she is Catholic, any church.

We all agree to Nicene Creed.

I would add ‘One’ [from the NC] to your post, which would negate ‘any church’

 

[mcq72]

would add ‘One’ [from the NC] to your post, which would negate ‘ any church ’

You are “one”, with those that are holy and apostolic, and also Catholic.

And we are all communities of said “one” church.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

ArchStanton:

would add ‘One’ [from the NC] to your post, which would negate ‘ any church ’

You are “one”, with those that are holy and apostolic, and also Catholic.

And we are all communities of said “one” church.

I’d hate to see the reaction of my cousin’s Russian Orthodox pastor if I ever told that to him. A Ukrainian Greek Catholic in communion with the Russian Orthodox?

 

[ArchStanton]

You are “one”, with those that are holy and apostolic, and also Catholic.

And we are all communities of said “one” church.

It sounds good on the outside but when you consider the following, a problem occurs…

2 Tim 2:2 And what you HEARD from me through many witnesses ENTRUST to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well .

Jn 10:15-16 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice , and there will be ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD .

Gal 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. “

Jn 17:21 “…that they may be ONE , as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us …”

1 Cor 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you AGREE in what you say , and that there be NO DIVISIONS among you , but that you be UNITED in the same mind and in the same purpose .

Eph 4:3-6 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT , as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, ONE FAITH , one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Rom 15:5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to THINK IN HARMONY with one another , in keeping with Christ Jesus

Acts 4:32 The community of believers was of ONE heart and mind , and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.

 

[lanman87]

It sounds good on the outside but when you consider the following, a problem occurs…

If I live in Georgia or New York, I’m still an American. Even though we have different culture and customs.
If I’m a liberal or conservative, I’m still an American
If I’m pro-life or pro-choice, I’m still an American

There are a lot of things that separate us. But our citizenship makes us Americans.

That is how we are one flock and have one Shepherd. When we come to faith in Christ, and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, we are born into the family of God, the Holy Nation. Our citizenship has changed. At that point, being part of the church, the body of Christ, isn’t something we do. It is who we are. And while our different cultures and opinions and understandings cause us to fuss and fight, like any family or nation. Our being part of the family of God and unity comes from our identity in Christ. That is how we are one, even when we don’t really act like it. It is a higher plain of unity than human intellectual unity. It is a supernatural unity that is held together by Christ himself.

Some of us understand this and give grace to others who hold differing opinions than ours. And we expect grace from those who hold different opinions than ours. That is why Protestant and Evangelicalism is, in many ways more Catholic/Universal than the Roman Catholic church. It is because we understand true unity doesn’t come from ourselves, our doctrinal distinctives, or the institutional church we worship with. It comes from the grace of God that none of us deserve.

And while we seek to love and serve Christ with all our heart, and soul, and mind. We also rest in His Grace that makes up for where we fall short.

 

[mcq72]

It sounds good on the outside but when you consider the following, a problem occurs…

There will always be a problem of division over truths, even over Christ, as He said. Paul also said, possibly tongue in cheek, that of course there must be division amongst us, to show who is approved of God! Hmmm.

So it is only a problem, this universal oness of true believers truth, to those who desire approval of God for their unholiness and unapostolicness towards other believers. It is classic boasting of “I am of Peter” or “Appllos”, or “Paul”.

We are not talking about division with gnostics or judaizers etc. but with baptized believers in Christ. To deny this universal unity of believers calling them schismatic, to espouse one’s church understanding even superiority seems carnal.

To be fair, everybody calls each other schismatic. Yet to be true to all your scriptures you posted, and meet someone half way, I would say an organization indeed may be schismatic, carnal, have some bad doctrine and practice. Yet some of it’s members may indeed truly be universal brothers in Christ. And one should go all the way and avoid labels such as imperfect, or not in fullness. Isn’t it enough we condemn their church error without denying the stronger bond of believer in Christ?

 

[ArchStanton]

There are a lot of things that separate us. But our citizenship makes us Americans.

That is how we are one flock and have one Shepherd. When we come to faith in Christ, and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, we are born into the family of God, the Holy Nation…

In a sense you are correct – we are all Christians. However,

Eph 3:10 so that the manifold WISDOM of God might now be made known THROUGH the CHURCH to the principalities and authorities in the heavens.

There is no logic to several ‘churches’ having that wisdom since they have different faiths/essential ideals.

Do we share the ‘one faith’?
Eph 4:3-6 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT , as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, ONE FAITH , one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

That ‘separation of ideas’ started early…

1 Jn 2:19 They went out from us , but they were not really of our number ; if they had been, they would have remained with us . Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. [ One Church, One Faith, One Baptism, No Divisions, No Other Gospel, One Shepherd ]

 

[ArchStanton]

To be fair, everybody calls each other schismatic. Yet to be true to all your scriptures you posted, and meet someone half way, I would say an organization indeed may be schismatic, carnal, have some bad doctrine and practice. Yet some of it’s members may indeed truly be universal brothers in Christ. And one should go all the way and avoid labels such as imperfect, or not in fullness. Isn’t it enough we condemn their church error without denying the stronger bond of believer in Christ?

I agree that we are 'brothers in Christ’. But as Christ is the head and we are the body, that said body should be united in the ONE FAITH. It is our responsibility [as Catholics] to guide you towards all truth as opposed to partial truth.

Blessings!

 

[mcq72]

“take note of those who create dissensions διχοστασίαι and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught;they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded.* 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil ; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush…” Romans 16

The CC , or any community, calling for a holy, apostolic, unified Christian walk, fine. But count me out, as apostle warns, when a community, even CC, create difficulties in accepting doctrines not taught by apostles, thereby creating divisions, such as IC and Assumption, supremacy of Roman bishop…indeed the peace of God in Christ rests in the prudent who remain obedient to original gospel, and. are not deceived.