The Universal Church

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Schism and heresies are wrong.

Yes they are. Yet divisions are a way to show oneself approved of God…

NOT from Our Lord’s Church.

Those who stay in His Church that HE established, and remain faithful till the end, as in, Persevere / endure till the end, in all the faith, show that approval and will be saved Mt 24:9-14.

As Paul warned the Church of Rome, against all those in error and will go into error

Jesus knew all the nonsense Satan would pull, from beginning to end, and who would follow his direction into division, so He sent the HS to direct Paul to teach

Rom 16:
17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions διχοστασίαι and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites,[b] and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. . . .

Whose feet will God ultimately crush Satan under? The Church of Rome

mcq72:

but indeed many see such legalism above as a rejection of some sort of grace. Perhaps that is why some reformers cited faith and grace alone, because to cite an institution as only means of salvation is contrary to grace. And that is what gappened. The warnings and exhortations went beyond specific doctrines or dogmas as in the past, but were warnings and exhortations to obedience to a specific church’s heirarchy.

Division / schism is always about rebellion against authority.

Perfect unity among His apostles with Peter as the leader, is what Jesus wants
AND
Perfect unity among all those who come to faith through THEM, is what Jesus wants

How perfect?

As perfect as Jesus and the Father are united.

HERE

HS doesn’t speak on His own authority. He takes from Jesus and sends it to us. Jn 16:12-15

So the HS doesn’t influence division in Our Lord’s Church.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Let’s not dismiss the fact schism is mortal sin.

Those who teach that schism from Catholic Church by Orthodox or Protestants is mortal sin teach another gospel, and by that are schismatics themselves, in my opinion.

That’s your choice. We will be judged by our choices we make

mcq72:

Such teaching is a work of inequity, in my opinion.

No. It’s the case of one making wrong decisions.

mcq72:

The CC is a bit two sided on this.

Another personal opinion?

How is the CCC two sided?

mcq72:

The good news is that since Vat 2 there is some positive light, just enough to show the disposition of any particular Catholic heart by what side they choose to rest upon.

Look,

You don’t even open up a short 5 min video to explain an issue being discussed. Do you then think I take your opinion on what you think Vat II and beyond, teaches on anything?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

News flash

What is the context of Jesus saying what He did? The saved vs the unsaved, those who go to heaven (the narrow door) vs ( the wide door) those who aren’t saved, they go to hell .

News Flash

So you understand and know the consequences of not giving yourself to God… of living in sin, of not repenting, of not allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you to do God will… that still doe NOT make you or any of us God.

Just because we understand how God will judge His children does not mean any of us gets a say of who will be allowed to enter that narrow doorway, be able to go through the eye of a needle or whom ST PETER will use the key to open those pearly gates for… or… when we cry Lord, Lord we do not get to say whom He does and doesnt know… nor do you get to say who are the FEW who God will allow to enter the heaven.

We are suppose to teach the word, teach the love of God and yes warn each other of the consequences… but where does it say we dictate what only God commands.

God gave us the rules, He told us what is what but He and only He is judge and jury for who goes straight to hell.

Just because He gave the apostles the Holy Spirit to forgive sin. He told them what is bound on earth is bound in heaven… that still does not make them more powerful then Him.

God and only God knows what happens to us.

Do you agree the scriptures are the word of God?

That God is telling us in advance what He wants?

Do you agree He tells us in advance what sins will send one to hell if one dies in them?

Therefore

we are to pass on that information so people who don’t know, will know the consequences to their actions.

 

[annad347]

Therefore

we are to pass on that information so people who don’t know, will know the consequences to their actions

Pass it on… Teach…

What part of scripture does it say we get to tell people they have no hope of salvation, that God love is lost to then… that man can judge weather or not they will be damned to hell.

Teach does not mean Judge.

You are acting like a teacher who tells a student they are stupid and will never succeed because they failed one test.

 

[steve-b]

Jesus did not say “I do not know you” …He said “I never knew you”. The whole while they thought they were good Christians, doing everything right and had all their ducks in a row, yet, He never knew them.

the synoptic Gospels say things a bit differently telling the same story

Mt7:
21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Lk 13
25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’

Wannano:

Each one of us needs to be careful we don’t have the attitude of " I thank you God that I am not like that other man"…

OTOH

the one who is complemented is the one who recognizes his faults and shows remorse

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Therefore

we are to pass on that information so people who don’t know, will know the consequences to their actions

Pass it on… Teach…

What part of scripture does it say we get to tell people they have no hope of salvation, that God love is lost to then… that man can judge weather or not they will be damned to hell.

Teach does not mean Judge.

You are acting like a teacher who tells a student they are stupid and will never succeed because they failed one test.

We most certainly are to judge actions.

If interested

Here’s a short read

Re: Ez 3:17… Consider this article from Msgr Charles Pope http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/how-to-respond-when-people-say-who-am-i-to-judge How else can we be considered our brother’s keeper?

 

[annad347]

Oh and in reply to your 3 questions

Yes
Yes
Yes

Still doesnt mean I’ll enough to say that those who are excommunicated from the church are there now in hell.

 

[annad347]

How else can we be considered our brother’s keeper?

With love mercy, and grace. By teaching by example. By teating people as you want to be treated. By telling someone God will loves you, wants you to be His, here is how you can belong to him.

With compassion
With hope
With understanding
With example
With charity
With love.

That’s how you can be your brothers keeper.

 

[steve-b]

Oh and in reply to your 3 questions

Yes
Yes
Yes

Still doesnt mean I’ll enough to say that those who are excommunicated from the church are there now in hell.

Your post is #2802 even though it says in the outer column post #2791

That’s a lot of posts to look back on. I only bring this up to ask you to be more specific, on what post of mine are you responding to?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

How else can we be considered our brother’s keeper?

With love mercy, and grace. By teaching by example. By teating people as you want to be treated. By telling someone God will loves you, wants you to be His, here is how you can belong to him.

With compassion
With hope
With understanding
With example
With charity
With love.

That’s how you can be your brothers keeper.

AND

you didn’t open the link

 

[annad347]

you didn’t open the link

how do you know, I didn’t open the link?

 

[MichaelP3]

Do you see who is ultimately behind Division"? SATAN. Do you see who people in division ultimately are following? SATAN … NOT Jesus NOT the HS … but SATAN

So non-Catholics are following satan?

That’s a bit “over the top” even for you Steve. You should reflect a bit and come to peace as you are stepping into regions you are not qualified to step into.

 

[annad347]

That’s a lot of posts to look back on. I only bring this up to ask you to be more specific, on what post of mine are you responding to?

I just responded to a line from post #2761. Then in post #2770 you said they were going to hell. Then it continued from there.

and I did read the article you posted, his explanation is how we should teach, guide, educate, correct with respect and love. It didn’t say anything about us being able to tell who will or who will not be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven when they died, because we don’t know what state their souls were in when they died.

That’s the only thing I was replying about, asking how do you know they went to hell because they were excommunicated from the church? How do you know they died in mortal sin? How do you know Jesus didn’t know them?

 

[gohjedrek]

All this talk about Universal Church really makes me wonder what are genuinely peoples’ views on church, if you believe church is just a community of believers and that the physical church doesn’t matter or if you believe church is both a community of believers and physical church matters.

I got into a disagreement with an evangelical christian over this issue because she believed that church is just a community of believers, you can worship anywhere and administer the sacraments anywhere. For myself, I disagree and believed that church is both a physical building as well as a community of believers. Sacraments are administered in the physical building, the community generally comes together to worship in the physical building, which is the designated place of worship. Her idea seems to sound more community friendly, but if that was the case, wouldn’t it have been better to join some para-church group for worship on the weekday and not go to church on sunday?

 

[mcq72]

Division / schism is always about rebellion against authority.

Yes, but it is usually centered around a specific doctrine, practice, teaching, not about bowing to a specific contested jurisdictional office. The CC made her church authority structure/ magisterium an article of faith itself.

 

[mcq72]

if you believe church is just a community of believers and that the physical church doesn’t matter

Only 358 communities out of 30,000 believe physical church doesnt matter. You posted around a straw man.

What we are specifically divided about is one office, one out five or six, the office of the head bishop, and some of her ununiversal councils.

believed that church is both a physical building as well as a community of believers

Well, you are half right in having a truth that will last thru eternity.

 

[ArchStanton]

The CC made her church authority structure/ magisterium an article of faith itself.

once again, you don’t understand ‘whatever you bind…’

The CC did not give the authority, Christ did!

 

[Isaac14]

how do you know, I didn’t open the link?

The forum software puts a count of how many times a link is opened in a little circle next to the link in question.

It doesn’t seem to always work though because there have been plenty of times I’ve clicked a link and not seen the count change, hence Steve’s perpetual accusations that no one here reads his links.

 

[annad347]

The forum software puts a count of how many times a link is opened in a little circle next to the link in question.

Thank you. Does it say who clicks on those links, also I think if you Right Click on the link to open in in a new Tab or Window, which is what I do because I don’t like how the click covers up the forum, it doesn’t count the click… but I’m not positive if that part is true.

All this talk about Universal Church really makes me wonder what are genuinely peoples’ views on church, if you believe church is just a community of believers and that the physical church doesn’t matter or if you believe church is both a community of believers and physical church matters.

I learned this in Catholic church, mind you…

In one of the services I attended, the homily spoke about how the church is more then just the physical place, more then just a place where people gather together to worship God. The church is inside all of us when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. It is The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit working within each of us to become reborn in Christ… one of the reason’s why we should care for ourselves, love ourselves, respect ourselves because God is with in us… we are His Church.

In the Catholic class I attended the teacher talked about how we in class are in church. We weren’t in the physical church we were in the classroom, but we were still in church, because we were gathered, learning, teaching and preaching about God. He mentioned the passage where Jesus said where 2 or 3 gather in my name I will be there Matthew 18:20.

We here are in church, though most of us are disagreeing on the understanding of God’s words, we are praising and worshiping His name. We are educating, teaching, learning about God…bringing people to Him through our words on this message board, and God is present.

So to answer your question, I believe a true church of God, where Jesus Christ is the head of the church, is praised and worshiped, is glorified in all that is holy, is more then just a physical building.

 

[mcq72]

once again, you don’t understand ‘ whatever you bind…’

The CC did not give the authority, Christ did

Lol…no you don’t understand.

Christ gives all authority . Exactly whose understanding of binding between us ( C’s, O’s, and P’s) is still up for grabs as to how heaven sees it. A matter of faith and conviction for now.