The Very Early Eucharist---Jesus not present in the Bread and Wine?

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas!

YAQUBOS:

Oh, I would prefer to talk about all this with someone who knows what he believes…

I believe Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior, I have no savior but him.

YAQUBOS:

Psalm45:9, do you think that in Baptism you receive the Baptism of water and the Baptism of the Spirit?

I believe that in baptism, God’s grace enters, the Holy Spirit then comes with confirmation, just like what Acts 8:14-17 states. God is not bound to the sacraments though as Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before his baptism, but this in no way degrades the sacramental necessity of baptism for as the Lord stated: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

Jesus states that baptism in the Spirit is not enough, the baptism of water is also required. This is further stated after Pentecost: ‘“Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’ (Acts 2:37-38)

Did Cornelius repent? Yes! Did he receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes! Was he baptized? Yes! In Acts chapter 10, God has the gentiles receive the Holy Spirit before their baptism, in order to show his favor upon them as welcomed members of his church.

YAQUBOS:

Do you think that the apostles were baptized before the Pentecostal Baptism of the Spirit?

The Bible does not say anywhere that they were not baptized. The risen Lord did breath his Spirit upon his apostles on the night of his Easter Evening. Now lets look at another passage about Baptism and confirmation: “While Apol’los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (Acts 19:1-6)

Well, if baptism were merely a symbolic act, then John’s baptism would have sufficed, but, St. Paul said it did not. Upon their confirmation, the Ephesians received the Holy Spirit. This is also what St. Peter said in Acts 2:37-38. God did make an exception in the case of Cornelius, where God was making a Statement to explain his previous revelation to St. Peter. But in no way does Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit prior to Baptism degrade the sacramental graces of baptism, for they were immediately baptized.

YAQUBOS:

Sorry, we are just out of the topic. The fact that you are talking about Baptism as giving Life instead of talking about the Eucharist shows that the Eucharist is not the eating and drinking.

It does not, we do eat and drink the Eucharist, and it gives us life. For with out a mother’s umbilical cord, the fragile fetus will die, the fetus will have no life within it.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas!

YAQUBOS:

Now that you are baptized, you have Life, right? Then the Eucharist is not giving you Life. It’s just maintaining it, right?

That’s and understatement, Baptism begins life, the Eucharist continues to give us life. Without the mother’s umbilical cord, the fetus will die.

YAQUBOS:

Read Acts

10:44-48 and answer the questions:

OK.

“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.” : If the Spirit is poured on someone, can he still be called dead?

Yes: “But a man named Anani’as with his wife Sapphi’ra sold a piece of property, and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has **Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit **and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Anani’as heard these words, he fell down and died.” (Acts 5:1-5) When a person receives the Spirit they have the choice to accept or reject it. Anani’as rejected it and died, Cornelius, accepted it; obediently was baptized, and has life.

YAQUBOS:

God says:

“I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life” ( Ezekiel 37:14 )

That’s only if you choose to accept the Spirit, Cornelius accepted it and it told him to be baptized.

YAQUBOS:

The Spirit of God gives LIFE, my friend. And those Gentiles received the Spirit.

I don’t recall it saying anywhere that they had eternal life, is the Spirit eating drinking? Sorry, I had to throw that one in. Anyways, what we have here is a great example of baptism of desire.

YAQUBOS:
“For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.” : Don’t you think this was a sign that they were really baptized by the Spirit?

I see this as a sign of baptism of desire, followed by their immediate sacramental water baptism. If they did not speak in tounges, then St. Peter, would not have known that they had the Holy Spirit, and he would not be able to recognize that God was calling for their baptism. (Their entry into the church)

YAQUBOS:
"Then Peter answered,
“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” : When did the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and how?

Upon their confirmation at Pentecost, after Jesus himself breathed the Spirit on them, and allowed them to do the same to others.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Continuing solely by his grace!

YAQUBOS:

In the SAME manner, these Gentiles received the Spirit, ALTHOUGH they were not yet baptized.

God made an exception, in order for St. Peter to understand the previous revelation. This is a great example of baptism of desire.

YAQUBOS:

What happened then? Then:

“And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” Were they baptized BEFORE receiving the Spirit of God, or AFTER being baptized by the Spirit?

Their desire had them baptized in the Spirit, their obedience to the Spirit had them water baptized as the Lord said in John 3:5. If Water baptism did not do anything, then St. Peter would not have baptized them and St. Paul would not have re-baptized the Ephesians.

YAQUBOS:

So you are not reading well Acts 10:44-48. God’s Word says that they received the Spirit BEFORE being baptized.

I did read it, I saw that they received the Spirit, which told them to be baptized in full obedience to Christ, in order for them to be saved. For, “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you.” (1 Peter 3:21). This comes straight from the epistle of the man that baptized them.

YAQUBOS:

And you insist that they didn’t have Life BEFORE being baptized, as if you can’t read Acts 10:44-48…

As you can’t read Acts 8:14-17 and Acts 19:1-16, where the faithful Samaritans and Ephesians did not receive the Holy Spirit until after their baptism. I’m still not seeing where they had life without baptism, if they did, they would not have been baptized.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas!

YAQUBOS:

If we were in a topic about Baptism, I would ask you what does the Scripture say about the “baptism of desire”?.. But that’s not our topic here.

Where does scripture state which writings are divine inspired and which are not?

Where does scripture state that St. John is the beloved disciple?

Where does scripture state that Divine Revelation has ended?

Where does scripture state that baptism of desire does not exist?

Where doe the old testament mention the seat of Moses?

 

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas YAQUBOS! I hope you have a happy and peaceful Holiday in that war-torn region of the Earth where the Lord humbled himself to walk.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Merry Christmas!

I agree with that, because with out the Eucharist we will die an not have life. The Eucharist is what gives you spiritual life, just like how food gives you physical life.

Good. Well, how can someone receive the Eucharist in a WORTHY manner if he doesn’t have Life without Eucharist?
Psalm45:9:

All life comes from God, who infuses his grace in us via the sacraments.

Can a pagan receive the Sacraments?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas!

YAQUBOS:

Good. Well, how can someone receive the Eucharist in a WORTHY manner if he doesn’t have Life without Eucharist?

By Baptism, faith and charity. Through Baptism, faith, and charity, we are worthy to receive the Eucharist, which continues the flow of life. Baptism begins spiritual life, the seal of original sin is broken and grace continues to enter through the Eucharist.

YAQUBOS:

Can a pagan receive the Sacraments?

Yes, a pagan can receive the sacrament of Baptism, just like Cornelius did. Then they cease to be pagans and are born again. After being baptized into the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, the born again can receive the other sacraments, but not without baptism.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Merry Christmas!

By Baptism, faith and charity. Through Baptism, faith, and charity, we are worthy to receive the Eucharist, which continues the flow of life. Baptism begins spiritual life, the seal of original sin is broken and grace continues to enter through the Eucharist.

Yes, a pagan can receive the sacrament of Baptism, just like Cornelius did. Then they cease to be pagans and are born again. After being baptized into the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, the born again can receive the other sacraments, but not without baptism.

"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.” ( John 6:53 )

In brief, we conclude that the Roman understanding of this verse is: we just MAINTAIN Life by eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood. We don’t RECEIVE Life by that, but by Baptism…

But, in fact, John 6:53 and the Bible as whole teaches us that we can’t have Life unless we eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Church_Militant]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.” ( John 6:53 )

In brief, we conclude that the Roman understanding of this verse is: we just MAINTAIN Life by eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood. We don’t RECEIVE Life by that, but by Baptism…

But, in fact, John 6:53 and the Bible as whole teaches us that we can’t have Life unless we eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

All kinds of out of context and twisted words. WHY won’t you listen and consider? You come in with your mind already made up, then attack (yes attack!) our faith. I don’t think your motives are concern for souls as much as feeding your ego at the expense of other Christians.
I think you are just plain Anti-Catholic.http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage29/19.gif

 

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas!

YAQUBOS:

In brief, we conclude that the Roman understanding of this verse is: we just MAINTAIN Life by eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood. We don’t RECEIVE Life by that, but by Baptism…

But, in fact, John 6:53 and the Bible as whole teaches us that we can’t have Life unless we eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood.

Yes, and by being baptized, we are partaking in his redemption, the sacrifice of calvary, like what St. Paul said in his epistle to the Romans. By eating and drinking the Eucharist, we are also partaking in his redemption, the sacrifice of calvary. I see no contridictions. Church Militant says it all.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Church Militant:

All kinds of out of context and twisted words. WHY won’t you listen and consider? You come in with your mind already made up, then attack (yes attack!) our faith. I don’t think your motives are concern for souls as much as feeding your ego at the expense of other Christians.
I think you are just plain Anti-Catholic.http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage29/19.gif

You mean I was wrong when I concluded the following:

"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.” ( John 6:53 )

In brief, we conclude that the Roman understanding of this verse is: we just MAINTAIN Life by eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood. We don’t RECEIVE Life by that, but by Baptism…

But, in fact, John 6:53 and the Bible as whole teaches us that we can’t have Life unless we eat the flesh of the Lord and drink His blood.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I concluded this from your replies.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Psalm45:9:

Merry Christmas!

Yes, and by being baptized, we are partaking in his redemption, the sacrifice of calvary, like what St. Paul said in his epistle to the Romans. By eating and drinking the Eucharist, we are also partaking in his redemption, the sacrifice of calvary. I see no contridictions. Church Militant says it all.

You see, Church Militant, you say it all…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

I quote this interesting story:

King Pyrrus of Epirus was approached by his fiend Cyneas and asked, “If you conquer Rome, what will you do next?”
Pyrrhus replied, “Sicily is next door and will be easy to take.”

And what shall we do after Sicily is taken?”

“Then we will move over to Africa and sack Carthage.”

“And after Carthage, sir?”

“The turn of Greece will come.”

“And what, may I ask, will the fruit of all these conquests be?”

“Then,” said Pyrrhus, “We can sit down and enjoy ourselves.”

“Can we not,” said Cyneas, “enjoy ourselves now?”

Pyrrhus said: “Postea vivemus” - “Then we will live”.

Cyneas said: “At hoc jam licet” - “We may live now if we want”.

Oh, friends, Jesus Christ gives us LIFE now. We can have LIFE now by faith in Him.

And we shall never hunger nor thirst.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas!

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

I quote this interesting story:

Pyrrhus said: “Postea vivemus” - “Then we will live”.

Cyneas said: “At hoc jam licet” - “We may live now if we want”.

Oh, friends, Jesus Christ gives us LIFE now. We can have LIFE now by faith in Him.

And we shall never hunger nor thirst.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Now here’s my interesting story: 100 years ago Mr. Red wrote this down, “I never said you stole money.” YAQUBOS, what does this quotation mean? What does it say?

 

[Kurt_G]

Psalm45:9:

Merry Christmas!

Now here’s my interesting story: 100 years ago Mr. Red wrote this down, “I never said you stole money.” YAQUBOS, what does this quotation mean? What does it say?

Hello, all… I inherited the same quote (almost exactly) from my deacon friend, and we use it in RCIA as an explanation of how oral/verbal communication can often convey a fuller meaning than strictly written communication.

---

"I didn’t say she stole the money"

---

By stressing a separate word (other than “the”) each time, different meanings can be imparted to the exact same written statement.

Not sure if you’ll make any headway with Yaqubos with this, though… his thought process is really difficult for some of us to follow.

God Bless Us All!

 

[porthos11]

Kurt G.:

Hello, all… I inherited the same quote (almost exactly) from my deacon friend, and we use it in RCIA as an explanation of how oral/verbal communication can often convey a fuller meaning than strictly written communication.

"I didn’t say she stole the money"

By stressing a separate word (other than “the”) each time, different meanings can be imparted to the exact same written statement.

Not sure if you’ll make any headway with Yaqubos with this, though… his thought process is really difficult for some of us to follow.

God Bless Us All!

I think he’s best ignored.

Maybe I should go to the Fatwas R Us thread and ask Cest to Fatwa him.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

I think he’s best ignored.

Maybe I should go to the Fatwas R Us thread and ask Cest to Fatwa him.

When the clear Word of God comes, humans must shut their mouth.

"A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” ( John 10:19-20 )

Who has a demon and who is insane? The Lord and His disciples?..

“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” ( John 8:47 )

Our Lord told us:

“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” ( John 15:19 )

Those who want to oppose God, they would do better if they take advice from the Proverbs:

“Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise;
When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.” ( Proverbs 17:28 )

And this is the advice given here by porthos11…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

YAQUBOS:

When the clear Word of God comes, humans must shut their mouth.

"A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” ( John 10:19-20 )

Who has a demon and who is insane? The Lord and His disciples?..

“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” ( John 8:47 )

Our Lord told us:

“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” ( John 15:19 )

Those who want to oppose God, they would do better if they take advice from the Proverbs:

“Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise;
When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.” ( Proverbs 17:28 )

100 years ago Mr. Red wrote this down, “I never said you stole money.” YAQUBOS, what does this quotation mean? What does it say?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

100 years ago Mr. Red wrote this down, “I never said you stole money.” YAQUBOS, what does this quotation mean? What does it say?

We have to ask Mr. Red

When humans talk, ask them what they mean, and when God talks ask GOD what He means!

What kind of generation is this??!!

I quoted a story about a biblical truth, and that truth is: WE CAN HAVE LIFE NOW IN CHRIST!

And you come with a human philosophy!

Is death so beautiful???

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Psalm45_9]

Merry Christmas!

YAQUBOS:

We have to ask Mr. Red

AMEN! I’m glad we finally agree! Let’s look at the word of Mr. Red!

YAQUBOS:

When humans talk, ask them what they mean, and when God talks ask GOD what He means!

AMEN, my brother! That’s what Catholics do!

YAQUBOS:

What kind of generation is this??!!

I quoted a story about a biblical truth, and that truth is: WE CAN HAVE LIFE NOW IN CHRIST!

AMEN! Let’s look at the Word of the Lord, which is both the written AND the oral word. What kind of generation ignores St. Peter’s admonishment in his epistle?

YAQUBOS:

And you come with a human philosophy!

And St. Paul quoted pagan Greek poetry and St. James quoted apocryphal works to emphasize what they were explaining. I see this as biblical.
YAQUOBS:

Is death so beautiful???

YES!!! Because when I die (unless he comes in glory during my lifetime), I will be joining my personal Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! I’m looking forward to it!

Anyways Mr. Red wrote 100 years ago: “I never said you stole money.”

Mr. Blue read this as, “Inever said you stole money.” He then preached the Mr. Red thought that this person never stole money, he only suspected it, he never accused this person.

Mr. Green read this as, “I never said *you *stole money.” Mr. Green then preached that Mr. Red meant that this person lost the money; he never thought that this person stole it.

Mr. Yellow read this as, “I never said you stole money.” Mr. Yellow then preached that Mr. Red meant that this person stole his sheep, or his tunic, or something else, but not his money.

Mr. Orange read this as, “I never said you stole money*.*” Mr. Orange noticed that this sentence sounded like another sentence in a book written 400 years ago. Mr. Orange then preached that Mr. Red was making a reference to this book and that that what Mr. Red wrote weren’t even his words, he took them from another book and so the “I” does not refer to Mr. Red at all, but some one else.

A simple six word sentence has five different interpretations, which one is right? Well Mr. Yellow was Mr. Red’s best friend. Mr. Purple and Mr. Yellow were best friends, but Mr. Red died and Mr. Purple never met Mr. Red. Mr. Yellow showed Mr. Purple what Mr. Red wrote. Mr. Purple tells Mr. Yellow that the words that Mr. Red are the ifallible truth. Mr. Yellow then told Mr. Purple that Mr. Red was writing about how Mrs. Pink lost the money he gave her, and he was assuring her that he was not convicting her of stealing, because someone told her that he did. Mr. Red told Mr. Yellow to tell everyone and that the power he is infusing in Mr. Yellow will not permit him to tell a lie. What Mr. Yellow preaches is Mr. Red’s infallible word! Thanks to Mr. Yellow, Mr. Purple knew what Mr. Red was saying. Mr. Purple even wrote letters to his friends telling them what Mr. Yellow told him. Mr. Purple told me what Mr. Red was really saying because Mr. Yellow died before I was born. Now I know what Mr. Red was saying, and now I’m telling you.

YAQUBOS:

We have to ask Mr. Red

You’re right! I’ll go to Mr. Purple’s, since what he preaches is the infalibe word of Mr. Red, and then I’ll know!