The Virgin Mary

[VociMike]

This is not a truth. Believing in Mary does not set a person free. Only following Christ alone can do that.

And that includes accepting the divine revelation he has given his people. Reject the Church and you reject Christ.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Anything else after the 1st centuries are fictions.

Oh really? Prove it.

 

[ricmat]

Apparently, no one wants to address the question.

If not for the immaculate conception, would Jesus still be sinless? The answer is “yes”.

If Mary spend a day a moment or two feeling jealous over someone else’s life being easier than hers, would the whole salvation plan have fallen apart? The answer is “no”.

What difference does it make whether or not Mary was sinless?

I’m late getting into this thread, but here’s my 2 cents.

Yes, Jesus could still be sinless without the IC.

No, salvation would not have fallen apart if Mary sinned.

God can, after all, do anything.

However, God wants to not just do anything, he wants to do it right, especially after leaving all those hints: The new Eve. The new ark of the covenant, etc.

 

[justasking4]

If you didn’t (and maybe you didn’t - I’m not going to go back and check) then why are you arguing so hard for Mary to be a sinner?

Because she was as all men are. Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that** both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;**
10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

It doesn’t any clearer than this that all men including Mary sinned.

 

[sandusky]

That’s gobbledy-gook. It is a sequence of words without meaning.

The words of scripture must be spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2).**Romans 5:12-14

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 NEVERTHELESS death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.**Men died prior to the giving of the law because they sinned in Adam.

 

[Ginger2]

Quote Vocimike: “… then why are you arguing so hard for Mary to be a sinner?”

I’m not “arguing” that Mary was a sinner. I’m asking what difference it makes.

Quote ME: “If not for the immaculate conception, would Jesus still be sinless? The answer is “yes”.”

Quote Vic: “You cannot prove this.”

Are you suggesting Jesus **could **have been tainted with original sin? Do you mean to tell me that God could protect Mary from original sin, but not Jesus!!!

 

[sandusky]

But he didn’t acquire his perfect human nature from them.

He got that from Himself.

 

[RobHom]

This is not a truth. Believing in Mary does not set a person free.

You my friend, are leaping off the cliff of conclusions!!

I never said believing in Mary would set a person free… I said **The TRUTH will set you free. ** Read more carefully please.

Only following Christ alone can do that. There is not one verse or passage that comes even close to claiming Mary was sinless.

Really? Can you “prove that”?

Its not about being protestant or smarter than Luther and the reformers but what do the scriptures teach?

And I guess that would be “your opinion”, which accordingly is just yours…though some others might agree with you… though there are far more Catholics than you, who agree with me, us and the Church. So, effectively…your opinions are “irrelevant”.

A person could easily look up all the references in the Bible on Mary and never find this idea that she was sinless and other claims made by the catholic church. All that we know about Mary is only found in the scriptures. Anything else after the 1st centuries are fictions.

Ahhh, now we get to a crux in the matter. You are further “limiting” God with the illegitimate viewpoint that God was not allowed or didn’t inspire any man or woman post 100 AD? That my friend is bordering on “hysterical”. Why would God do that anyway? And you are merely expressing your opinion again with regards to “fictions”, again its “irrelevant”.

 

[VociMike]

Because she was as all men are. Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that** both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;**
10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

It doesn’t any clearer than this that all men including Mary sinned.

Thank you for coming to my rescue. Now, tell me what personal sin an stillborn baby has committed.

 

[VociMike]

He got that from Himself.

Then he wasn’t really conceived of a virgin, and the entire nativity narrative is a lie.

 

[VociMike]

Quote Vocimike: “… then why are you arguing so hard for Mary to be a sinner?”

I’m not “arguing” that Mary was a sinner. I’m asking what difference it makes.

Quote ME: “If not for the immaculate conception, would Jesus still be sinless? The answer is “yes”.”

Quote Vic: “You cannot prove this.”

Are you suggesting Jesus **could **have been tainted with original sin? Do you mean to tell me that God could protect Mary from original sin, but not Jesus!!!

I’m saying (again and again - anybody listening?) that we do not know what requirements exist for God to become Incarnate. Mary, not being God Incarnate, does not live with the same requirements. So stop stating your opinions as fact.

 

[justasking4]

RobHom;2652427] You my friend, are leaping off the cliff of conclusions!!

I never said believing in Mary would set a person free… I said The TRUTH will set you free. Read more carefully please.

Was not this statement of being free in the context of Mary? The context for being free can be found in John 8:31-32 in which being a disciple of Christ sets a person free.

Really? Can you “prove that”?

See Romans 3:9-10 and Romans 5:12

And I guess that would be “your opinion”, which accordingly is just yours…though some others might agree with you… though there are far more Catholics than you, who agree with me, us and the Church. So, effectively…your opinions are “irrelevant”.

Truth is not determined by how many believe but if it corresponds to reality. The reality is that there is no evidence in scripture for many of the catholic claims about Mary. Look up all the passages in scripture about Mary and you will find what i have been saying is true.

Ahhh, now we get to a crux in the matter. You are further “limiting” God with the illegitimate viewpoint that God was not allowed or didn’t inspire any man or woman post 100 AD? That my friend is bordering on “hysterical”. Why would God do that anyway? And you are merely expressing your opinion again with regards to “fictions”, again its “irrelevant”.
Let me ask you: Does you church consider anything written in the 2nd or 3rd centuries inspired-inerrant? If so, what would it be?

 

[VociMike]

The words of scripture must be spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2).Romans 5:12-14

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 NEVERTHELESS death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.Men died prior to the giving of the law because they sinned in Adam.

The phrase “sinned in Adam” is still gobbledy-gook. It still is a string of words with no meaning. And it certainly does not follow from the scripture you quoted.

 

[sandusky]

Then he wasn’t really conceived of a virgin, and the entire nativity narrative is a lie.

Not according to scripture.

 

[sandusky]

The phrase “sinned in Adam” is still gobbledy-gook. It still is a string of words with no meaning. And it certainly does not follow from the scripture you quoted.

Spiritually discerned.

 

[justasking4]

And that includes accepting the divine revelation he has given his people. Reject the Church and you reject Christ.

Nonsense. Look at John 8:31-32 where Jesus says this. Also, if you take your view on listening always to your church leaders you will be in danger of being misled by false teahers that would come into the church. See 2 Peter 2:1 for example.

 

[justasking4]

Oh really? Prove it.

Check out The Gospel of James, also sometimes known as the Infancy Gospel of James or the Protoevangelium of James, is an apocryphal Gospel probably written about AD 150. This is what is called a false gospel.

 

[RobHom]

Quote Vocimike: “… then why are you arguing so hard for Mary to be a sinner?”

I’m not “arguing” that Mary was a sinner. I’m asking what difference it makes.

Since you aren’t apparently satisfied with the answers we have given…write down the information below, call or fax your request for an audience with the Pope…and ask him:

GENERAL AUDIENCES OF THE HOLY FATHER AND PONTIFICAL CEREMONIES:
Enquiries: Prefect of the Pontifical Household Ph. +39.06.69884857 fax +39.06.69885863

Quote ME: “If not for the immaculate conception, would Jesus still be sinless? The answer is “yes”.”

Ahhh, you have now elevated yourself to the pre-eminent position of Supreme Theologian of the World… yes?

Quote Vic: “You cannot prove this.”

She can’t, and hasn’t even a “tinker’s chance in hades” of doing it.

So far…all she has done is express uneducated and irrelevant opinions…born of the propaganda she has been fed.

(Pssst, VIC… Seems like she and “just4” aren’t real quick on the proverbial “uptake”…they seem to have some inane notion that if they keep regurgitating the same “denials”…some of us may one day agree with them…oh well…)

 

[VociMike]

Spiritually discerned.

In other words, your tradtion of men teaches it, you believe it, but you can’t actually explain it. Fair enough.

 

[VociMike]

Nonsense. Look at John 8:31-32 where Jesus says this. Also, if you take your view on listening always to your church leaders you will be in danger of being misled by false teahers that would come into the church. See 2 Peter 2:1 for example.

Of course, being a Protestant you have to say Nonsense. I understand that. That doesn’t change that fact that what one does to the Church (including rejecting it), one does to Christ.