The Virginity of Mary - Protestant positions

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

Is consummation required to form a ‘valid marriage’?

@EZweber I thought it wasn’t a valid marriage (and subject to receipt of a decree of nullity, if sought) until consummated.

 

[Dlee]

I can’t answer why Baptist’s feel that way about Mary - I have certainly changed my beliefs since becoming Catholic, and that is supported by scripture. We couldn’t have pictures or representation of Jesus/God because of idol worship - yet, our children’s Sunday School papers had pictures of Jesus. They would have said she had other children (marital relations with Joseph) as any mother in a marriage would have.

 

[mcq72]

Even with our view, would a newly engaged woman act with surprise when she was told she would bear a son?

Well, would a devout Jewish maiden, even one that was in temple service as a child as some traditions suggest, be ignorant of the prophesied virgin birth?

The supposed "surprise’’ many suggest may really be an inquisitive question as to the how (on a virgin conception) . May have been a humble question on just how to obey.

Mary was one to “ponder”, and may have pondered the prophesied virgin birth, well before annunciation. She indeed may have been an exceptional Jewish maiden with Holy Spirit insight into such prophetic scriptures, as a few others were also.

 

[thistle]

Sure, but your saying that suggests a misunderstanding of the nature of Protestantism. For better or worse, Protestants don’t consider themselves bound by the original Reformers any more than they do by the Church Fathers. If the Biblical text suggests an obvious default reading, then it doesn’t matter what Luther, Melanchthon, et al. made of it … any more than what Origen or Chrysostom made of it.

That’s a problem of Protestants. They can’t make up their minds on teachings.
Only the Catholic Church has remained consistent in teachings since the time of Christ.

 

[JonNC]

That’s a problem of Protestants. They can’t make up their minds on teachings.
Only the Catholic Church has remained consistent in teachings since the time of Christ.

This assumes that there was once a singular Protestant teaching. That is factually incorrect. The Reformation was actually Reformations. Zwingli, Luther, and Anabaptists were never one group.
So even to expect that Baptists, for example, would care what Luther said makes no more sense than expecting them to care what Pope Leo said.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

@EZweber I thought it wasn’t a valid marriage (and subject to receipt of a decree of nullity, if sought) until consummated.

First of all, this discussion we’re having refers to Catholic marriages nowadays, not to Jewish marriages back in the days of Mary and Joseph.

Second of all, in the Catholic church today, a marriage performed in/ recognized by the Catholic Church is presumed to be valid. If one of the spouses wishes to annul the marriage, he has to prove the grounds of nullity. Non-consummation could be grounds for an annulment. However, until the annulment is actually granted, the marriage is presumed valid.

 

[thistle]

This assumes that there was once a singular Protestant teaching. That is factually incorrect. The Reformation was actually Reformations. Zwingli, Luther, and Anabaptists were never one group.
So even to expect that Baptists, for example, would care what Luther said makes no more sense than expecting them to care what Pope Leo said.

Like I said, Protestants can’t agree on much at all.

 

[TheLittleLady]

She was allowed to make an appearance at Christmas and that was it.

There are plenty of virgins.

And the belief is exactly that, to the point where if Mary had said “no”, the Holy Spirit would have moved on to the virgin next door and kept asking until He found one who was willing.

I’m curious to see on scriptural grounds why God cannot give Mary that much importance.

The argument is that because Mary is not mentioned specifically in Scripture aside from the Nativity/childhood narratives and at the Crucifixion/Resurrection narratives with the exception of the “who are my mothers and my brothers?” passage, that to give her any importance is to commit idolatry.

During my conversion, fear of idolatry was very real.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

This assumes that there was once a singular Protestant teaching. That is factually incorrect. The Reformation was actually Reformations. Zwingli, Luther, and Anabaptists were never one group.
So even to expect that Baptists, for example, would care what Luther said makes no more sense than expecting them to care what Pope Leo said.

Like I said, Protestants can’t agree on much at all.

To expect them to is unreasonable.

 

[EZweber]

I thought it wasn’t a valid marriage (and subject to receipt of a decree of nullity, if sought) until consummated.

It is a canonically unusual marriage that I do not have much knowledge of, but it is valid.

 

[EZweber]

Non-consummation could be grounds for an annulment.

I believe it would not technically called an annulment. The Pope would exercise the Petrine Privilege and dissolve it, similar to the Pauline Privilege with bishops. I don’t really know much about it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I will leave the annulment questions to the forum experts such as 1ke and TheLittleLady. All I know is that if you’re married in the Catholic Church, it’s presumed valid, and the presumption starts as soon as the marriage takes place. You don’t have to run home and consummate it for the marriage to fully take effect.

 

[EZweber]

Well, would a devout Jewish maiden, even one that was in temple service as a child as some traditions suggest, be ignorant of the prophesied virgin birth?

The supposed "surprise’’ many suggest may really be an inquisitive question as to the how (on a virgin conception) . May have been a humble question on just how to obey.

Mary was one to “ponder”, and may have pondered the prophesied virgin birth, well before annunciation. She indeed may have been an exceptional Jewish maiden with Holy Spirit insight into such prophetic scriptures, as a few others were also.

It seems extremely presumptuous to assume that you will be the virgin to bear the Messiah, especially when there are close similarities with normally married women in Scripture. At this point, your argument seems to be based on conjecture.

 

[thistle]

To expect them to is unreasonable.

Only Catholic teaching has been consistent and unchanged.

 

[Peebo]

As a former Pentecostal there were very few times Mary was ever mentioned…one was the fact she is mentioned in scripture as a virgin who gave birth to our Savior who was conceived by the Holy Spirit…as the mother of Jesus…and…having brothers and sisters…apart from those mentioned Catholics were considered Mary worshipers…idolaters and unless saved were going to hell…period…sadly it was so easy to convert them because the majority of Catholics didn’t have a clue about their faith…the Bible…the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary…or the Traditions of the church…and Protestants watching some of the fervent festivals around the world honoring our Blessed Mother could rightly surmise they were witnessing idol worship.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

To expect them to is unreasonable.

Only Catholic teaching has been consistent and unchanged.

That’s debatable, but off topic.

 

[mcq72]

seems extremely presumptuous to assume that you will be the virgin to bear the Messiah, especially when there are close similarities with normally married women in Scripture. At this point, your argument seems to be based on conjecture.

Well no less conjecture than attributing her question to a vow of virginity.

Do you agree that today we see jeremiah as prophetic that a virgin would give birth, even conceive ? Is the presumption then that this could be perceived by OT Jews?

Not sure what you mean that a virgin is like or similar to married women.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

JonNC:

To expect them to is unreasonable.

Only Catholic teaching has been consistent and unchanged.

That’s as may be, but the point here is that talking about what Luther, Zwingli, et al. believed is a covert appeal to tradition … which most Protestants don’t consider valid grounds for a theological argument. If I’m going to persuade someone of something, it has to be done on premises that he & I already share.

 

[EZweber]

Well no less conjecture than attributing her question to a vow of virginity.

Debatable. It makes sense with a number of passages in Scripture, as well as common sense.

Do you agree that today we see jeremiah as prophetic that a virgin would give birth, even conceive ? Is the presumption then that this could be perceived by OT Jews?

No. It’s that she would assume it was her.

Not sure what you mean that a virgin is like or similar to married women.

There are a number of cases in Scripture where a woman is told that she will bear a son, in very similar words.

 

[po18guy]

Their position, as it is with Protestantism in general, is impossible to define. If a certain denomination or non-denomination (see what I mean?) differs from Catholicism/Orthodoxy, it is nearly always due to limited understanding and private interpretation of scripture alone. The Catholic Church is the Paul Harvey of Christian history, possessing “the rest of the story”