The War on Women

[Peter_Plato]

The war on women, however, extends much further than abortion - we could cut abortion out of the debate and there is still a ‘war’ - which is represented by, for instance in continued differing standards between men and women (regarding dress, deportment sexually and otherwise). A lot of this war is I will readily grant perhaps unwitting. But it is sustained and damaging.

Okay, I’m game.

Explain - cutting abortion out of the debate altogether - in what precisely this “war” on women exists.

It is entirely unclear that the examples you give (“regarding dress, deportment sexually and otherwise”) are significant sources of animus or conflict - except perhaps among women themselves.

Women, as far as I can tell, decide for themselves what they wear and how they dress. Regarding sexual “deportment” there may be different expectations from a range of influences on the question, but I fail to see how those expectations amount to a “war.”

For the most part, in modern western cultures, women do what they want and still complain they don’t get ALL that they want. Welcome to the real world. It appears that some will continue to complain that they are hard done by until their every desire has been satisfied and then still express dissatisfaction that a plethora of possible new whims exist that no one told them about. Insatiable desires need to be recognized for what they are and not off-loaded onto those around to fulfill.

In the end, self-sacrificial love is the only way to peace and beatitude.

You may think that to be a “patriarchal” notion imposed by men (or a male God) on women, but, in the end, the truth of it will become evident. God (in Jesus) lived out that love by emptying himself and becoming human. If it was good enough for God, why not for men AND women?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Just a reminder that the topic of this thread is not whether abortion is right or wrong. It’s whether there is a war on women, either real or perceived.

A counter-reminder that the opening post in the thread SPECIFICALLY referred to “the defenders of abortion or Planned Parenthood” pointing to opposition on abortion as THE prime example of a “war” being waged “on women” and their rights.

One tactic that defenders of abortion or planned parenthood like to use to deter opponents is by asserting that you are engaging in a “war on women”. You seek to remove their rights, limit their access to health care, etc. For those struggling with this tactic and find yourself becoming defensive, here is the way that I thought it through.

I can go with the struggle as being a “war”.
There are women who support the opposition. But also men.
The war is not about gender. It is about truth.

Assertion: “You are waging a war on women” (lie)
Response: “I am waging a war against lies.” (truth)
Motivation: I seek to change your sense of the truth.
Understanding of most supporters of abortion: decieved

 

[SWolf]

Okay, I’m game.

It is entirely unclear that the examples you give (“regarding dress, deportment sexually and otherwise”) are significant sources of animus or conflict - except perhaps among women themselves.

I am reminded of that one blogger who stated she would stop wearing yoga pants because she found them immodest, and was ruthlessly attacked by other women for daring to say such a thing. They said she was encouraging “rape culture”.

 

[Murmurs]

Okay, I’m game.

Explain - cutting abortion out of the debate altogether - in what precisely this “war” on women exists.

It is entirely unclear that the examples you give (“regarding dress, deportment sexually and otherwise”) are significant sources of animus or conflict - except perhaps among women themselves.

Women, as far as I can tell, decide for themselves what they wear and how they dress. Regarding sexual “deportment” there may be different expectations from a range of influences on the question, but I fail to see how those expectations amount to a “war.”

For the most part, in modern western cultures, women do what they want and still complain they don’t get ALL that they want. Welcome to the real world. It appears that some will continue to complain that they are hard done by until their every desire has been satisfied and then still express dissatisfaction that a plethora of possible new whims exist that no one told them about. Insatiable desires need to be recognized for what they are and not off-loaded onto those around to fulfill.

In the end, self-sacrificial love is the only way to peace and beatitude.

You may think that to be a “patriarchal” notion imposed by men (or a male God) on women, but, in the end, the truth of it will become evident. God (in Jesus) lived out that love by emptying himself and becoming human. If it was good enough for God, why not for men AND women?

Hoooooo boyyy…

Do not for one minute think that women can actually in most situations (unless they’re just bumming around their own home, alone or with closest family members), “decide for themselves what they wear.” I invite you to invest in a wig, padded bra, small amount of dress makeup and some good shaving cream at your convenience, to find out for yourself that women are judged on their appearance pretty much every moment of the day - to an extent that men are not. While I could choose to wear the same outfit to work 3 days in a week, changing only some small aspect like a necklace, it would be seen as grossly unprofessional as a woman (and even if nothing was said in person, comments and thoughts happen behind the back. I know because I have been on the receiving, presumably and giving, definitely, end of such thoughts and comments. A man can rock up to work in the same suit every day, same shirt (well same design anyway) perhaps switching ties, and no one, men or women, would even notice.

Now I do actually agree, in questioning the extent to which this is a conscious “war” on woman, but it is definitely inherent in a patriarchal society that women are judged primarily on their appearance, and the extent to which that appearance is pleasing to a male archetype of how a woman should look (women of course can absorb these attitudes and be part of it, and I fully recognise that despite the best intentions I can be as guilty of it as anyone).

Then we can think perhaps a little about what has come to be known as ‘rape culture’, which is about as aggressively and deliberately damaging to women as you can possibly get (I am sure you would agree). The idea on one hand, expressed by some (I grant not all) men, that women are primarily purposed to be sexually available; and on the other, that women should just accept this because to do otherwise is to make too much of a fuss. This is a good and current example of what I’m talking about. Some things this girl said in her testimony stand out for me:

I tried to be as polite as possible.

I wanted to not cause a conflict.

I feel like I had objected as much as I felt I could at the time. And other than that I felt so powerless.

I was telling myself, 'OK, that was the right thing to do, you were being respectful;.

Anyone who says that women are not victimised as a group, by men, as a group (not all women, and not all men, but as groups), can kindly go and die in a fire.

This girl reportedly returned to the school for a term after she was raped, and then left. I detest how perfectly typical this is. Everyone is concerned about the possibility of ‘ruining a young man’s life’ with a rape conviction, when hers is being ruined, is accepted as basic collateral against her coming forward to make an accusation. If you really cannot see the existence of a war on women in one form or another, by men collectively, then I am sorry we cannot continue this thread. People can make so many jokes and that’s fine but legitimately, this is what the patriarchy does. This is the war on women. This is what happens when a society where unwittingly or not men make the rules and condition women and girls to be more concerned with being polite than being safe like this poor girl. I utterly oppose the death penalty but if I met this young man I would literally strangle him with my bare hands. Obviously that would fix little and we reap what we all sow to an a degree (although he is responsible for his actions and I am not excusing him saying society made him that way, screw that noise), but the amount of rage the unconsidered opining of some raises in me, is indescribable.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I am reminded of that one blogger who stated she would stop wearing yoga pants because she found them immodest, and was ruthlessly attacked by other women for daring to say such a thing. They said she was encouraging “rape culture”.

Nihilism, the Evil One and the Ministry of Disinformation are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospects this systemic state of moral confusion has opened for them.

What better way to promote malevolence than by spreading the malarkey that the “good” is whatever each one wants it to be as decided by each little ego in their own isolated realm of existence, and then stir the pot by pointing out what a monstrous travesty every tiny offense is that occurs to insult each little ego-archy.

 

[SWolf]

Hoooooo boyyy…
Then we can think perhaps a little about what has come to be known as ‘rape culture’, which is about as aggressively and deliberately damaging to women as you can possibly get (I am sure you would agree). The idea on one hand, expressed by some (I grant not all) men, that women are primarily purposed to be sexually available; and on the other, that women should just accept this because to do otherwise is to make too much of a fuss. This is a good and current example of what I’m talking about. Some things this girl said in her testimony stand out for me:

Women judge other women on appearance far, far more than men do. Ask a guy what a couple of his female co-workers are wearing when she is not in sight. They will have no clue. Ask a woman the same thing, and see your answer.

Most men don’t care. Most of the time I don’t even care what my wife is wearing. you bet she cares what I wear, a lot, and in many more circumstances.

Seems women declare war on themselves.

 

[Murmurs]

For the most part, in modern western cultures, women do what they want and still complain they don’t get ALL that they want. Welcome to the real world. It appears that some will continue to complain that they are hard done by until their every desire has been satisfied and then still express dissatisfaction that a plethora of possible new whims exist that no one told them about. Insatiable desires need to be recognized for what they are and not off-loaded onto those around to fulfill.

In the end, self-sacrificial love is the only way to peace and beatitude.

You may think that to be a “patriarchal” notion imposed by men (or a male God) on women, but, in the end, the truth of it will become evident. God (in Jesus) lived out that love by emptying himself and becoming human. If it was good enough for God, why not for men AND women?

PS. Women do what they want as long as men approve of it. Otherwise people make comments. No one likes snarky comments, that’s why women don’t rock the boat too much. Don’t be ridiculous. If women truly did what they want we wouldn’t even need to have this debate (interesting though it is )

Now, I agree, let us have some more self-sacrifical love in the world. On the train this morning I was reading St Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary and approaching all of our lives (whether we be Catholic or not) in that kind of self-giving spirit would undoubtedly make our world that much better. I absolutely agree. But let’s do this from a level playing field ok?

For what it’s worth, the war on women I think cuts both ways, and can be just as damaging to men, because both genders suffer under unreasonable expectations (one reason perhaps why so few of my male friends are so willing openly to talk about their faith, except in private and in confidence, is that praying the Rosary is even less ‘masculine’ than some would say it is modern-ly feminine).

PPS. This article nicely illustrates another dimension that I’d not really thought of.

 

[Murmurs]

Women judge other women on appearance far, far more than men do. Ask a guy what a couple of his female co-workers are wearing when she is not in sight. They will have no clue. Ask a woman the same thing, and see your answer.

Most men don’t care. Most of the time I don’t even care what my wife is wearing. you bet she cares what I wear, a lot, and in many more circumstances.

Seems women declare war on themselves.

:banghead:

Why do women care? Because we judge each other on our attractiveness to men! I agree, women judge more. But why are we judging?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Determining whether there exists a “war on women” - especially if the claim depends upon whether denying women the “right” to kill their unborn children is morally permissible - hinges on whether abortion is right or wrong.

But we’re not talking about what is morally permissible. We’re talking about whether women perceive anti-abortion rhetoric as anti-woman.

Leaving women – their rights, their desires, their bodies – out of the equation only reinforces the idea that anti-abortion arguments are, at their heart, anti-woman.

What would make it possible for a scared teenager to continue a pregnancy? Are you in favor of policies that would allow her to return to school with daycare provided? Health care for her and her child? Food stamps if needed?

What about a woman, possibly with children already, who is single and barely making it now financially or emotionally?

What about a woman on the fast track in her career? If she’s not ready to continue putting in long hours her career will be derailed. Why should she care what you want her to do?

What about a woman with health issues, either physical or mental, who will find pregnancy difficult at best?

Why should any of these women listen to you? How much are you listening to them?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Hoooooo boyyy…

Do not for one minute think that women can actually in most situations (unless they’re just bumming around their own home, alone or with closest family members), “decide for themselves what they wear.” I invite you to invest in a wig, padded bra, small amount of dress makeup and some good shaving cream at your convenience, to find out for yourself that women are judged on their appearance pretty much every moment of the day - to an extent that men are not. While I could choose to wear the same outfit to work 3 days in a week, changing only some small aspect like a necklace, it would be seen as grossly unprofessional as a woman (and even if nothing was said in person, comments and thoughts happen behind the back. I know because I have been on the receiving, presumably and giving, definitely, end of such thoughts and comments.

I take this as an admission that the reason you feel constrained is that you have bought into the culture and endorse it by allowing yourself to be on both the “receiving” and “giving” ends of the expectations you claim constitute a “war” on women.

Sounds to me like a half-hearted complaint. You (and women in general, presumably) want to benefit from the situation as much as you decry what it does to you (and women, generally.)

You become what you feed into, it seems. Keeping that world alive and breathing by “giving” to it and “receiving” from it (and then complaining endlessly about it) just seems inane.

That isn’t my world nor is it one that I want any part of. I wouldn’t even keep it on life support by entertaining complaints about it.

 

[SWolf]

:banghead:

Why do women care? Because we judge each other on our attractiveness to men! I agree, women judge more. But why are we judging?

How is that men’s fault? I don’t judge my friends based on his attractiveness to women, and if I did, it wouldn’t be women’s fault.

 

[Peter_Plato]

But we’re not talking about what is morally permissible. We’re talking about whether women perceive anti-abortion rhetoric as anti-woman.

Leaving women – their rights, their desires, their bodies – out of the equation only reinforces the idea that anti-abortion arguments are, at their heart, anti-woman.

What would make it possible for a scared teenager to continue a pregnancy?

Moral courage.

The more we excuse irresponsibility and rationalize finding new excuses for every aberrant behaviour the less likely that reasonable solutions will be found.

Fostering unrealistic and, even, harmful expectations with regard to “whatever your heart desires” will only create larger problems for everyone until the entire system becomes unstable. We need to start at the basics - individuals need to take individual responsibility for their every thought, word and action and do whatever necessary to solve the problem for themselves instead of looking to blame everyone else.

 

[Peregrinans]

I am a woman and don’t think it is a “War on Women,” that is over charged language designed to thwart conversation.

Abortion is not a new problem, here is a quote from the Didache a first century Christian guidebook “Thou shalt not procure abortion, nor shalt thou kill the new-born child.”

They felt the need to site these practices specifically, because in pagan cultures woman were attempting to kill their babies, probably for most of the same reasons we have today. Men, and women, would also leave unwanted babies out in the elements (usually outside the walls of the city or town) so that the children would die from exposure, starvation or be devoured by animals.

However, Christians (both men and women) believed (rightly IMO) that this was wrong and were commissioned to take in those unwanted babies and to preach of the evils of these practices. And after centuries societies changed and it became illegal to seek an abortion and to kill the newborn children. Not because they hated women, but because of that old chestnut, “thou shall not kill.” And as society has gone back to its pagan roots viola it is the norm again.

So the "war" isn’t on women, it is on the procedures that kill the babies in the womb or outside of the womb. The war is on murder, which is intentionally ending the life of another human being. And since women are the ones who are biologically designed to become impregnated, and to house the unborn, they are the ones on the front-lines so to speak. The legal permission to commit infanticide is almost besides the point, the war is on the mindset of BOTH women AND men that the killing of an innocent is a humane option. And nobody forces anyone to raise an unwanted child…there is obviously adoption and many places (religious and otherwise) have no questions asked drop off policies, where a baby can be abandoned with no legal ramifications.

Unfortunately, we’ve raised generation after generation of both men and women to believe that, (A) God is a myth, (B) We are all just animals, (C) Antiquated moral “rules” set down by a mythical God are foolish and should be done away with.(D) Even if you believe in God and are a Christian, he didn’t mean unborn babies when He said, “thou shall not kill.” or (E) It is not considered a human yet, so it is okay to kill it.

So, it all boils down to: If for any reason the woman doesn’t want to reproduce at any given time she has the right and privilege to extinguish the life of her unwanted offspring. Period. They either know it is a baby they don’t care or they have convinced themselves it is not and that it is ok.

The war is on the practice, and desire, for an abortion not the women who seek them out.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Moral courage.

The more we excuse irresponsibility and rationalize finding new excuses for every aberrant behaviour the less likely that reasonable solutions will be found.

And it’s the woman who is irresponsible, right? Not the man who fathered the child.

Fostering unrealistic and, even, harmful expectations with regard to “whatever your heart desires” will only create larger problems for everyone until the entire system becomes unstable. We need to start at the basics - individuals need to take individual responsibility for their every thought, word and action and do whatever necessary to solve the problem for themselves instead of looking to blame everyone else.

I guess that cover it. Women need to solve their problems for themselves without expecting help or support. So a woman who ends her pregnancy is following your advice by taking responsibility and doing whatever is necessary to solve the problem for herself.

Your view is far too prevalent. Women know they’re on their own and have to do whatever is necessary.

 

[vz71]

But we’re not talking about what is morally permissible. We’re talking about whether women perceive anti-abortion rhetoric as anti-woman.

How odd that a call to stand and live with the consequences of your actions, to be responsible, is considered anti-women.
I would think it to be anti woman to believe women cannot stand by their own actions. That they cannot really be held responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

What would make it possible for a scared teenager to continue a pregnancy? Are you in favor of policies that would allow her to return to school with daycare provided? Health care for her and her child? Food stamps if needed?

I doubt I would be. I would need to see evidence that such policies work as intended.

What about a woman, possibly with children already, who is single and barely making it now financially or emotionally?

Is it too harsh to ask why she would participate in behavior that results in pregnancy if the negative consequences are so high?

What about a woman on the fast track in her career? If she’s not ready to continue putting in long hours her career will be derailed. Why should she care what you want her to do?

Same question. Why is she participating in behavior that can have such a high cost if she is incapable of accepting the consequences?

What about a woman with health issues, either physical or mental, who will find pregnancy difficult at best?

Same question again.

Why should any of these women listen to you? How much are you listening to them?

Because it is not an empowerment of anyone to hide them from the consequences of their behavior. The right to choose death empowers no one. Least of all women. All it does is turn desperate people into monsters, wounded by choices they should never have been presented with in the first place.

 

[vz71]

And it’s the woman who is irresponsible, right? Not the man who fathered the child.

Both have been irresponsible.
Both should bear the consequences.

I guess that cover it. Women need to solve their problems for themselves without expecting help or support. So a woman who ends her pregnancy is following your advice by taking responsibility and doing whatever is necessary to solve the problem for herself.

Your view is far too prevalent. Women know they’re on their own and have to do whatever is necessary.

What is necessary to do what exactly?

 

[Murmurs]

I take this as an admission that the reason you feel constrained is that you have bought into the culture and endorse it by allowing yourself to be on both the “receiving” and “giving” ends of the expectations you claim constitute a “war” on women.

Well, as a woman, you can’t exactly help it. If you want to get on, you can’t fly in the face of convention however awful it may be. For the same reason I wouldn’t (and presumably you wouldn’t) get a tattoo on my face. Society is so ordered rightly or wrongly that you’d get rather judged negatively for doing so. And ditto any professional woman wearing the same thing every day for a week.

Sounds to me like a half-hearted complaint. You (and women in general, presumably) want to benefit from the situation as much as you decry what it does to you (and women, generally.)

Another thing I can’t really answer because unfortunately I’m not sure what you mean…Do I want men and women to judge me on my attractiveness, body size/shape/weight, what I wear, whether or nor I wear makeup, etc? Not one bit.

There’s a big difference between a general “let’s look professional in the workplace” rule, which is fine (I’d not go to work in pyjamas however comfortable I’d be and however well I’d still work). What feminists object to is the double standard with regards what constitutes “looking professional”.

You become what you feed into, it seems. Keeping that world alive and breathing by “giving” to it and “receiving” from it (and then complaining endlessly about it) just seems inane.

That isn’t my world nor is it one that I want any part of. I wouldn’t even keep it on life support by entertaining complaints about it.

You try just ignoring conventions, however unfair they genuinely are, and then see what happens… Making a fuss is the only way to change it, even if it ruffles some privileged feathers along the way.

How is that men’s fault? I don’t judge my friends based on his attractiveness to women, and if I did, it wouldn’t be women’s fault.

Le sigh

Whether innately or because of social convention, women do do this much more than men do anyway, so I’m not that surprised you don’t judge your friends that way. Women don’t consciously blame men for the way they judge each other…but what I mean is most standards of what is a ‘good’ look on women, are based on what men would find attractive. So I don’t blame men that much any more than you would blame women, but it is based on an ingrained idea that we (women) have to please men.

Moral courage.

The more we excuse irresponsibility and rationalize finding new excuses for every aberrant behaviour the less likely that reasonable solutions will be found.

Fostering unrealistic and, even, harmful expectations with regard to “whatever your heart desires” will only create larger problems for everyone until the entire system becomes unstable. We need to start at the basics - individuals need to take individual responsibility for their every thought, word and action and do whatever necessary to solve the problem for themselves instead of looking to blame everyone else.

So basically you want to blame women for making a bad choice, and then presumably take away her ability to mitigate the potential consequences of her making a choice, by limited access to contraception too?

Blaming women, which is what you are doing, is precisely what we mean when we speak of the ‘war on women’.

How odd that a call to stand and live with the consequences of your actions, to be responsible, is considered anti-women.
I would think it to be anti woman to believe women cannot stand by their own actions. That they cannot really be held responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

I doubt I would be. I would need to see evidence that such policies work as intended.

Is it too harsh to ask why she would participate in behavior that results in pregnancy if the negative consequences are so high?

Same question. Why is she participating in behavior that can have such a high cost if she is incapable of accepting the consequences?

Well social conservatives as part of the war on women want to make the costs EVEN HIGHER by limiting contraceptive access, forestalling attempts to teach women the, you know, actual facts about sex, in schools, including how to have it safely as opposed simply to what sex is…Hypocrisy is really unattractive and it’s especially so when its consequences are so damaging. Kindly stop.

All it does is turn desperate people into monsters, wounded by choices they should never have been presented with in the first place.

Then for the love of all that is holy SUPPORT INCREASED ACCESS TO CONTRACEPTION. No one can stop sex happening…we can make it a heck of a lot safer.

 

[SWolf]

Whether innately or because of social convention, women do do this much more than men do anyway, so I’m not that surprised you don’t judge your friends that way. Women don’t consciously blame men for the way they judge each other…but what I mean is most standards of what is a ‘good’ look on women, are based on what men would find attractive. So I don’t blame men that much any more than you would blame women, but it is based on an ingrained idea that we (women) have to please men.
.

So is this the fault of “the patriarchy” or not?

If so, Ever hear “happy wife, happy life”? Is that based on an ingrained idea that men have to please women? Did that come from the matriarchy?

 

[vz71]

Well social conservatives as part of the war on women want to make the costs EVEN HIGHER by limiting contraceptive access, forestalling attempts to teach women the, you know, actual facts about sex, in schools, including how to have it safely as opposed simply to what sex is…Hypocrisy is really unattractive and it’s especially so when its consequences are so damaging. Kindly stop.

Then for the love of all that is holy SUPPORT INCREASED ACCESS TO CONTRACEPTION. No one can stop sex happening…we can make it a heck of a lot safer.

One does not make sex any safer or less damaging by divorcing the consequence from the action. It is only in taking the consequences with the actions that we can step up to the plate. Anything less contributes more to the culture of death we see in so much of the world now.

The very phrase “No one can stop sex happening” reveals the truth, that some do not intend on exercise of ration and reason, but wish man to be reduced to an animal, slave to desires and sins forever.

This enslavement is another war. Only it is not just a war against women, it is a war against creation itself.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

This post came my way last night on Facebook. After reading it, there is no doubt a war is being waged. The only question is who’s behind it.

The same day I called them and told them that I had a blood test and it confirmed pregnancy, and I needed to see if I could see a doctor about prenatal care, and what I could and couldn’t do [to] keep the baby healthy.

They then told me that unless I had a sexually transmitted disease or wanted an abortion that they could no longer help me. I said “So y’all do not help pregnant women?” They told me no, that they didn’t have doctors for pregnant women.