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Murmurs
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I was going to reply again to this thread - but you say everything I was going to, more succinctly and more clearly
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francisca
Guest
If an abortion is murder, then who are the murderers? The mother only? Or The father too?
Your answer will define whether this issue is a war on women, or not really
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Everyone who by support or negligence enable this to go on. The culpability resides in our entire culture, its values and lack thereof, its goals and ends which are antithetical to fostering and nurturing life above material goods and ambitions.
It isn’t a “war on women,” it is a war on life itself as abetted by blind selfish get-what-you-can-while-the-getting-is-good. The “war on women” meme is a simple case of finger pointing to deflect responsibility away from one party onto another. The men involved went AWOL long ago. So did society, in general. There is no one left to blame which is why unborn children have become the convenient scapegoats - they can’t complain nor shoulder the blame. They just suffer the brunt of the consequences.
This will go on until the blaming and enabling stop. Given what we human beings have become we can’t and won’t save ourselves.
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billcu1
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Here here! Everyword.
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billcu1
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I happened to hear Hillary Clinton say something about believing in a “right” for a woman to murder a fetus if she was raped. I’m not quite sure how that is the child’s fault. Life is a gift. The circumstance unfortunate but if the child is not wanted there’s adoption. BTW for Catholics are we to never support a candidate that allows Euthanasia or Abortion, no matter what else they say? Is this an ecclesiastic law or is there sin involved in voting for other issues in which a candidate believes even if they believe even a conditional abortion and not on demand?
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francisca
Guest
When men is about to be blamed, then suddenly culpability resides in our entire culture
Yes, it is.
Right.
Question 1
Should abortion being illegaize, then should the man man-up and go to jail, or the woman who is till recovering from pain has to go to jail, while her man continue watching porn? Or, both of them has to go to jail?
Men are the ones whose above typical attitude. Women day dream about being loved, get married to a good faithful husband-- which turn out to be mere fantasy nowadays.
Nice.
Classic.
Yes there ARE !
Question 2
With all the postion you’ve taken above, bottom line, are you supporting illegalizing abortion?
I’m still trying to figure out why porn was brought into this.
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SuscipeMeDomine
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Then leave it out and answer Francisca’s question.
And the question that was not answered is…?
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
You quoted it in message 107. If abortion is murder, then who should be imprisoned for committing the crime? The man? The woman? Both? Neither?
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James_Tyler
Guest
The United states say abortion is not murder but I understood that the Catholic Church sees it as killing a human being. Our congregation was told by our Parish priest that if a Catholic participates in any way in an abortion, that person is automatically excommunicated from the Church.
If it is actually murder in the eyes of the Church then whoever participates to make it happen is culpable, right? If it is not murder in the eyes of the Church (or God) then why are we opposing it. So those of you who say this is not murder, do you say that it is not murder in the eyes of the Church or God? And if it is, then why are you hard-timing someone for calling it what God calls it?
Showing people pictures of an ultra-sound won’t work for many abortionists, i bet. Here’s why i think that is. The problem, they know the fetus is real and it will become a child. That’s why they want the abortion. The don’t want the baby. But they don’t want to feel guilty of a crime either. This country already has the legal grounds to say the baby isn’t real yet. It’s just tissue. We have doctors saying that it is morally ok because it isn’t a real baby yet. So the people who want abortions can go ahead and get one and feel blameless. If you could absolutely prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a 3 week old fetus has a real soul and is fully human and alive just as much as we are, that would only encourage the abortionist to get to the clinic before 3 weeks had past.
I was under the impression that Peter Plato answered that very well.
Were you looking for more?
Apologies but I am not going to answer further.
I believe the blame game to be a red herring.
We know abortion to be murder. It is the deliberate taking of a human life.
We also know that since it is a muder, it is not a valid choice. So removing the choice is inconsequential to the rights of anyone.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Well, let’s put it this way…
Not working towards making abortion the worst possible option will merely continue permitting human beings to believe that the lives of others who are not valued can be easily taken from them by those with the means, power and will to do so. This will make society more hardened and inured to disposing of unwanted persons and more callous in its ethics. That is already occurring given how many people seem unfazed by the goings on at Planned Parenthood.
If western society doesn’t turn this around and begin defending the lives of its citizens without compromise, what is left of this civilization will become barbaric.
Pointing fingers and endorsing fault-finding does little to resolve the issue.
My preference would be to
- defund Planned Parenthood,
- make abortions less likely by effecting mandatory policies to educate those contemplating abortion as to precisely what they are about to undertake - no cloaking the reality behind a facade of euphemism and denial,
- putting resources and money into making it much easier for women to choose adoption rather than abortion
- work towards educating all of society with regard to responsible use of the gift of sexuality and promoting positive - rather than negative - outlooks toward family and children
- slowly turn society around in terms of recognizing what a gift life is and what the killing of a human life involves. The media needs to get on board with this rather than the wholesale indulging of narcissistic egoism that currently preoccupies the airwaves.
Clearly funding PP is enabling an organization that pushes abortion as the ONLY option for women in anything close to a precarious situation and - in many cases - simply making abortion the option of convenience by negating and masking the reality of what actually occurs when a woman has an abortion.
The governments of most western nations are on the wrong side of this issue which is going to make choosing life and well-being very difficult going forward. Yet, the only legitimate purpose of any government is to insure the good of all its citizens, not solely the benefits of the elite and powerful to the detriment of the voiceless and vulnerable.
Either we will fix this problem or God will. Assigning blame does absolutely nothing. This is a cultural problem and your attempt to frame the issue as one of either allowing abortions or punishing the offenders is capitulating to blame-finding which adds precisely nothing to the possibility of a proper solution.
We need - all of us - to take responsibility and work towards resolving what has become a social and moral malady that infects all of us. We TREAT disease, we don’t jail those who have succumbed to it.
NOT seeing the value of life in its proper perspective is a blindness. As a society, we need to focus on rectifying the blindness by taking positive steps to apply the correct lenses through which to see what is before us.
We have been victims of ethical nihilism, callous hedonism, manipulation by the wealthy elite and our own willful ignorance long enough.
Time to wake up from the stupor and do everything we can to positively promote life rather than allow the death promoters to have their way legally and politically.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
You guys are amusing, but tiring. Every time someone tries to pin you down, you change the argument.
Mostly what this discussion has done for me is strongly reinforce the idea that men don’t understand and don’t want to understand. Women are on their own and will probably be blamed, no matter what decisions they make. I’m not sure if it’s deliberate or simply cultural, but you are waging a war on women and we have to fight it.
I’m out of here. You may continue telling yourselves how moral you are while being quite willing to abandon your sisters in Christ.
Mostly what this discussion has done for me is strongly reinforce the idea that men don’t understand and don’t want to understand. Women are on their own and will probably be blamed, no matter what decisions they make. I’m not sure if it’s deliberate or simply cultural, but you are waging a war on women and we have to fight it.
I’m out of here. You may continue telling yourselves how moral you are while being quite willing to abandon your sisters in Christ.
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francisca
Guest
If abortion is murder, who are the murderers?
The mother only, or the father too?
The mother only, or the father too?
Assigning blame was not included in the original posting.
So how is it changing the argument to keep from straying?
I have yet to hear a correlation between removing the option for abortion from the table and some hindrance of rights.
I suppose one can make the claim of a war upon women, but without evidence of said war upon women, and a growing casualty list of innocent babies indicating a war upon life instead, people will have doubts of the integrity of the claim.
That I am unwilling to participate in your attempts to blame others for atrocities being committed against innocent children should likely be an indication that perhaps a different tack should be taken in the conversation.
Perhaps this is where the front line of the war really is.
Someone looks at the circumstances with logic, and is accused of waging a war upon women. It certainly fits with what I see in political climates. I guess some believe just the accusation is enough to silence opposition.
Blame Game?
I have already explained my feelings there.
And have been accused of waging war on women for it.
I disagree.
Outright illegalization would instantly render all other options easier.
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francisca
Guest
In your hypothetical world, who hypothetically broke the law?
If we are making stuff up, let’s be clear about it.
We wouldn’t want to confuse your conjectures for reality.
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