B
Bookcat
Guest
I do not agree with your interpretation… but have already noted that.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
T
TDBlovedbyJC
Guest
It is not a matter of interpretation. The Scriptures are plain.
B
Bookcat
Guest
An interesting reading for you:Paul says in Romans “If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved.” It is not, if you do these things, you might be saved. YOU WILL BE SAVED. Not probably. Paul did not say it would be likely. He said it WILL happen.
“Dear brothers and sisters, we must constantly renew our adherence to Christ who died and rose for us: his Passover is also our Passover because in the Risen Christ we are given the certainty of our own resurrection. The news of his being raised from the dead never ages and Jesus is alive for ever; and his Gospel is alive. “The faith of Christians”, St Augustine observed, “is the Resurrection of Christ”. The Acts of the Apostles explain it clearly: “God has given assurance to all men by raising him [Jesus] from the dead” (17: 31). Indeed, his death did not suffice to demonstrate that Jesus is truly the Son of God, the awaited Messiah. How many people in the course of history devoted their lives to a cause they deemed right and died for it! And dead they remained. The Lord’s death reveals the immense love with which he loved us, to the point of sacrificing himself for us; but his Resurrection alone is our “assurance”, the certainty that what he said is the truth which also applies for us, for all times. In raising Jesus, the Father glorified him. In his Letter to the Romans St Paul wrote: “If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (10: 9).”
~ Pope Benedict XVI , 26 March 2008
T
TDBlovedbyJC
Guest
I am glad that Benedict XVI repeated what Paul said in Romans…An interesting reading for you:
“Dear brothers and sisters, we must constantly renew our adherence to Christ who died and rose for us: his Passover is also our Passover because in the Risen Christ we are given the certainty of our own resurrection. The news of his being raised from the dead never ages and Jesus is alive for ever; and his Gospel is alive. “The faith of Christians”, St Augustine observed, “is the Resurrection of Christ”. The Acts of the Apostles explain it clearly: “God has given assurance to all men by raising him [Jesus] from the dead” (17: 31). Indeed, his death did not suffice to demonstrate that Jesus is truly the Son of God, the awaited Messiah. How many people in the course of history devoted their lives to a cause they deemed right and died for it! And dead they remained. The Lord’s death reveals the immense love with which he loved us, to the point of sacrificing himself for us; but his Resurrection alone is our “assurance”, the certainty that what he said is the truth which also applies for us, for all times. In raising Jesus, the Father glorified him. In his Letter to the Romans St Paul wrote: “If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (10: 9).”
~ Pope Benedict XVI , 26 March 2008
Do you know why Paul said “confess with your mouth AND *believe in your heart…” *?
Do you know why he makes the distinction that saving faith must be in a person’s heart, and not simply in their mouth or in their mind?
What is the difference between “knowing in your mind” and “believing in your heart,” and how can we tell the difference between the two?
B
Bookcat
Guest
Paul is talking of his present.It is not a matter of interpretation. The Scriptures are plain.
He says I am not aware of anything against myself - but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
And later in 9:27 he notes that he disciplines or chastises or pummels his body to bring it into subjection - why? So that after preaching to others he himself might not be cast away…disqualified…
But not going to go back and forth arguing meanings of verses. I do not have the time really. But I am trying to answer your questions give an account for the “hope” that is in me (as Peter says to do).
B
Bookcat
Guest
The “heart” in the biblical sense refers often to the center of the person …to the whole person …(not just say the emotions etc)I am glad that Benedict XVI repeated what Paul said in Romans…
Do you know why Paul said “confess with your mouth AND *believe in your heart…” *?
Do you know why he makes the distinction that saving faith must be in a person’s heart, and not simply in their mouth or in their mind?
What is the difference between “knowing in your mind” and “believing in your heart,” and how can we tell the difference between the two?
Paul does not say anything there about knowing in your mind or set it against believing in ones heart.
Paul though will in Romans 12 discuss the reality of the importance of “renewal of ones mind”.
T
TDBlovedbyJC
Guest
Yes, from the overflow of a persons heart comes their thoughts, feelings, words, and actions.The “heart” in the biblical sense refers often to the center of the person …to the whole person …(not just say the emotions etc)
Paul does not say anything there about knowing in your mind or set it against believing in ones heart.
Paul though will in Romans 12 discuss the reality of the importance of “renewal of ones mind”.
We must not only have mental knowledge of the gospel - as the demons do - but we must believe in our heart.
This is why “Sola Fide” is so often misunderstood. Personally, I do not like the slogan because it does not explain the difference between “mental knowing” and “heart believing.”
T
TDBlovedbyJC
Guest
You have a hope? In what? When God will judge you based on your works? If Paul is waiting for God to judge him, based on his works, in order to grant him salvation…Paul is talking of his present.
He says I am not aware of anything against myself - but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
And later in 9:27 he notes that he disciplines or chastises or pummels his body to bring it into subjection - why? So that after preaching to others he himself might not be cast away…disqualified…
But not going to go back and forth arguing meanings of verses. I do not have the time really. But I am trying to answer your questions give an account for the “hope” that is in me (as Peter says to do).
But Paul is not saying that God will grant him salvation based on his innocence of sin. Paul is simply saying that only God can judge whether or not he actually does have any sin. A clear conscience alone is not proof of innocence.
But alas… we will likely continue to just go back and forth. I will submit myself to the plain meaning of the Scriptures and you will submit yourself to the Roman Catholic dogma.
May The Holy Spirit grant us both wisdom and discernment…
B
Bookcat
Guest
One gives ones YES!Yes, from the overflow of a persons heart comes their thoughts, feelings, words, and actions.
We must not only have mental knowledge of the gospel - as the demons do - but we must believe in our heart.
This is why “Sola Fide” is so often misunderstood. Personally, I do not like the slogan because it does not explain the difference between “mental knowing” and “heart believing.”
As to Sola Fide - it is a problematic phrase (though one can take it in a good sense- see below).
I invite you to read the following - they are each not long but I think you will find them interesting.
Pope Benedict XVI on Faith and Works in Paul:
(Earlier audience)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)
B
Bookcat
Guest
Not what - WHO.You have a hope? In what?.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth who is Lord and was crucified and is risen!!
(Romans 8: 24-25)
I know he in whom I have believed!
(got to run now…kids must be put to bed…so no time to read the rest or reply more - but see the post with the three links for now…).
F
fhansen
Guest
And Paul also said this is Phil 3:I am glad that Benedict XVI repeated what Paul said in Romans…
Do you know why Paul said “confess with your mouth AND *believe in your heart…” *?
Do you know why he makes the distinction that saving faith must be in a person’s heart, and not simply in their mouth or in their mind?
What is the difference between “knowing in your mind” and “believing in your heart,” and how can we tell the difference between the two?
**"…that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained."**
We should have confidence and assurance of our salvation.
And yet, in humility, and in view of our own limitations, willfulness, and sin, a guarded assurance. This is the “attitude” which Paul speaks of above.
B
Bookcat
Guest
The Scriptures speak of “salvation” in different tenses- he was saved by Jesus Christ -* not based on any innocence of sin* - indeed by baptism his former sins were gone…but he must remain living in him…But Paul is not saying that God will grant him salvation based on his innocence of sin. Paul is simply saying that only God can judge whether or not he actually does have any sin. A clear conscience alone is not proof of innocence. …
Did I enter a state of Salvation - a state of Justification by my works? No.When God will judge you based on your works?
If Paul is waiting for God to judge him, based on his works, in order to grant him salvation…
Did Paul enter into a state of Salvation - a state of Justification by his works?** No.**
Did God Judge Paul? Yes. And all was well!
Will God judge me? Yes. I did not enter into justification by my works…but I certainly can leave by them (the works of the flesh…!)
As Paul noted those who do certain things - will not enter the kingdom of God…
If the person who does such does not repent - and dies in that state away from God -so they remain. By their choice.
And He notes in 2 Tim 2: 12 - if we presevere - endure - we will reign with Christ - but if we deny him - he will deny us.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
TDBlovedbyJC.
Glad to see you posting more on this thread.
I think this is a good discussion to have.
Also TDBlovedbyJC. You quoted St. Paul . . .
ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Do you HAVE TO “declare with your mouth” concerning salvation?
God bless.
Cathoholic
Glad to see you posting more on this thread.
I think this is a good discussion to have.
Also TDBlovedbyJC. You quoted St. Paul . . .
ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Do you HAVE TO “declare with your mouth” concerning salvation?
God bless.
Cathoholic
T
TDBlovedbyJC
Guest
"“Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”indeed by baptism his former sins were gone…but he must remain living in him…
How do you know whether you are working in your flesh if you do not even know whether you have The Holy Spirit?Will God judge me? Yes. I did not enter into justification by my works…but I certainly can leave by them (the works of the flesh…!)
.
T
TDBlovedbyJC
Guest
No, this is not absolutely required. Obviously, a person who believes in Christ but yet does not possess the biological ability to speak would not therefore be barred from Heaven simply because He was unable to verbalize His heart-felt faith in the Savior.ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Do you HAVE TO “declare with your mouth” concerning salvation?
Likewise, at bottom, our salvation is always a matter of the heart. The only absolute requirement is to believe in your heart that Jesus is your Lord and Savior. At the moment a person genuinely believes this in their heart - and this must be in the heart and not just in the mind - they are filled with The Holy Spirit and He (The Holy Spirit) begins sanctifying and regenerating them instantaneously.
L
LatinRight
Guest
Blessings Cathoholic,TDBlovedbyJC.
Glad to see you posting more on this thread.
I think this is a good discussion to have.
Also TDBlovedbyJC. You quoted St. Paul . . .
ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Do you HAVE TO “declare with your mouth” concerning salvation?
God bless.
Cathoholic
Very good question!!!
Blessings
LatinRight
C
Cathoholic
Guest
TDBlovedbyJC.
You could say the same thing about “belief in the heart” concerning a profoundly mentally handicapped person.
(Certainly you are not disqualifying such people from salvation are you?)
I think “confessing with your mouth” IS required (for those that CAN).
St. Paul says if I confess with my mouth AND believe in my heart.
And you seem to telling me something different (concerning this verse that you already cited).
ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
**
NOT ROMANS 10:9 (phantom verse)** If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” that’s a good thing but it is not absolutely required. But the ONLY requirement is that you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, than you will be saved.
I also believe in my heart that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (but Lazarus certainly isn’t God).
Don’t I have to believe MORE than God raising Jesus from the dead about Jesus? Wouldn’t I have to believe in Jesus as true God AND true man too for example?
Not trying to be contentious here, but the beauty of the Catholic teachings on justification is a FULL Gospel, rather than the whittled down tradition I was taught as a youth in Baptist Sunday school.
I desire a FULL gospel and I think you do too.
Also I think St. Paul asserts believing and continuing to believe and confessing and continuing to confess Jesus.
But you have to look to other verses of his to get that.
In other words, I don’t think Romans 10:9 is meant to be a complete synopsis on salvation.
I read St. Paul and see salvation as a moment followed by a process - a lifelong process.
(I read your earlier posts about banning warnings for you. If you are concerned that a post may be “bannable” don’t post it but feel free to PM me if you don’t think it meets posting qualifications. But for the benefit of other readers, if your post is “kosher” by all means lets have this discussion here on the thread.)
I think your answer is a partial truth.No, this is not absolutely required. Obviously, a person who believes in Christ but yet does not possess the biological ability to speak would not therefore be barred from Heaven simply because He was unable to verbalize His heart-felt faith in the Savior.
You could say the same thing about “belief in the heart” concerning a profoundly mentally handicapped person.
(Certainly you are not disqualifying such people from salvation are you?)
I think “confessing with your mouth” IS required (for those that CAN).
St. Paul says if I confess with my mouth AND believe in my heart.
And you seem to telling me something different (concerning this verse that you already cited).
ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
**
NOT ROMANS 10:9 (phantom verse)** If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” that’s a good thing but it is not absolutely required. But the ONLY requirement is that you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, than you will be saved.
I also believe in my heart that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (but Lazarus certainly isn’t God).
Don’t I have to believe MORE than God raising Jesus from the dead about Jesus? Wouldn’t I have to believe in Jesus as true God AND true man too for example?
Not trying to be contentious here, but the beauty of the Catholic teachings on justification is a FULL Gospel, rather than the whittled down tradition I was taught as a youth in Baptist Sunday school.
I desire a FULL gospel and I think you do too.
Also I think St. Paul asserts believing and continuing to believe and confessing and continuing to confess Jesus.
But you have to look to other verses of his to get that.
In other words, I don’t think Romans 10:9 is meant to be a complete synopsis on salvation.
I read St. Paul and see salvation as a moment followed by a process - a lifelong process.
(I read your earlier posts about banning warnings for you. If you are concerned that a post may be “bannable” don’t post it but feel free to PM me if you don’t think it meets posting qualifications. But for the benefit of other readers, if your post is “kosher” by all means lets have this discussion here on the thread.)
S
sudy
Guest
I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from with your thread. What do you believe happens when you really and truly believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord yet you are not innocent of sin, what then? I’m thinking specifically of verses like James 2:10-11, 1 John 5:16, Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 5:22, 28-29.You have a hope? In what? When God will judge you based on your works? If Paul is waiting for God to judge him, based on his works, in order to grant him salvation…
But Paul is not saying that God will grant him salvation based on his innocence of sin. Paul is simply saying that only God can judge whether or not he actually does have any sin. A clear conscience alone is not proof of innocence.
But alas… we will likely continue to just go back and forth. I will submit myself to the plain meaning of the Scriptures and you will submit yourself to the Roman Catholic dogma.
May The Holy Spirit grant us both wisdom and discernment…
What happens when you sin? How do you wash your robes white again? …or have you managed to keep yourself free from sin since baptism?
L
LatinRight
Guest
TDBlovedbyJC;1397479 said:Blessings TDBlovedbyJC,
**THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH
a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.) – 100%
b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.) – 100%
c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.) – 100%**
For me, the meaning of faith in God:
Strong and unshakeable belief, certainty, trust, confidence, to be sure (100%) and to know
(100%) God exists and He always keeps His Word and never goes back on His promises.
Hebr.11:6;
“Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe …”
Eph.2:8; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift if God.”
Our salvation is God’s gift, received by faith. – Personally **I don’t believe **we can receive
and we can keep God’s gift of salvation with a doubtful and shaky faith.
I also believe, a doubtful and shaky faith is a **defeated and dead faith a false humility,
please only the inside and the outside enemies of the RCC.**
To destroy a person need to destroy only his faith by make it doubtful, shaky and uncertain/unbelieving.
I have two questions, what do you think TDBlovedbyJC?
(Please consider only faith no any other area of Christian life.)
First question:
On the scale of 0% faith to 100% faith, where would you put a mark on that you think,
God would grant us His gift of salvation, 30%, 75%, 100% ?
Second question:
Throughout our Christian life from baptism until we die, how many % of faith do you think,
would title us to believe that we still have God’s gift of salvation, 30%, 75%, 100%?
I know you are not God and not judge, I only like to have your view on it.
Thanks in advance.
Blessings
LatinRight
- Status
- Not open for further replies.