The way of salvation, and assurance thereof

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TDBlovedbyJC said:
But right now I am simply talking about how we know we are saved.
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**Blessings TDBlovedbyJC,

THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.) – 100%

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.) – 100%

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.) – 100%**

For me, the meaning of faith in God

Strong and unshakeable belief, certainty, trust, confidence, to be sure (100%) and to know

(100%) God exists and He always keeps His Word and never goes back on His promises.

Hebr.11:6;
“Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe …”

Eph.2:8; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift if God.”

Our salvation is God’s gift, received by faith. – Personally **I don’t believe **we can receive

and we can keep God’s gift of salvation with a doubtful and shaky faith.

I also believe, a doubtful and shaky faith is a **defeated and dead faith a false humility,

please only the inside and the outside enemies of the RCC.**

To destroy a person need to destroy only his faith by make it doubtful, shaky and uncertain/unbelieving.

I have two questions, what do you think TDBlovedbyJC?

(Please consider only faith no any other area of Christian life.)

First question:
On the scale of 0% faith to 100% faith, where would you put a mark on that you think,

God would grant us His gift of salvation, 30%, 75%, 100% ?

Second question:
Throughout our Christian life from baptism until we die, how many % of faith do you think,

would title us to believe that we still have God’s gift of salvation, 30%, 75%, 100%?

I know you are not God and not judge, I only like to have your view on it.

Thanks in advance.

Blessings

LatinRight
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
"“Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”
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The word that was translated there as “guarantee” is *arrabon *and it refers to a “pledge” or “down payment” of what is to come…a “first installment”.

The Holy Spirit given at baptism etc is yes an arrabon of what is to come …

(such does not mean that the person will not or could not fall away before they receive the “fullness”…one can and thus go against the arrabon of the Paraclete - and against the seal of baptism)
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
"
How do you know whether you are working in your flesh if you do not even know whether you have The Holy Spirit?
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Who said I do know of that I have the Holy Spirit (or rather that he has me!)?

I was given the Holy Spirit at my baptism! And at the laying on of hands a confirmation. And he is active in all the Sacraments - including confession. He dwells within. Christians are* temples of the Holy Spirit*. He comes too in new ways at various times.

One can yes know in many ways the presence and action of the Holy Spirit and his work.

Christians are to walk by the Spirit.
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
…
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"…there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.

The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). There is an important meaning contained within this expression. Saint Luke teaches that knowing the content to be believed is not sufficient unless the heart, the authentic sacred space within the person, is opened by grace that allows the eyes to see below the surface and to understand that what has been proclaimed is the word of God.

Confessing with the lips indicates in turn that faith implies public testimony and commitment. A Christian may never think of belief as a private act. Faith is choosing to stand with the Lord so as to live with him. This “standing with him” points towards an understanding of the reasons for believing. Faith, precisely because it is a free act, also demands social responsibility for what one believes. The Church on the day of Pentecost demonstrates with utter clarity this public dimension of believing and proclaiming one’s faith fearlessly to every person. It is the gift of the Holy Spirit that makes us fit for mission and strengthens our witness, making it frank and courageous."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Porta F.)

“In the mystery of his death and resurrection, God has revealed in its fullness the Love that saves and calls us to conversion of life through the forgiveness of sins (cf. Acts 5:31). For Saint Paul, this Love ushers us into a new life: “We were buried … with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4). Through faith, this new life shapes the whole of human existence according to the radical new reality of the resurrection. To the extent that he freely cooperates, man’s thoughts and affections, mentality and conduct are slowly purified and transformed, on a journey that is never completely finished in this life. “Faith working through love” (Gal 5:6) becomes a new criterion of understanding and action that changes the whole of man’s life (cf. Rom 12:2; Col 3:9-10; Eph 4:20-29; 2 Cor 5:17).”

~ Pope Benedict XVI
 
Is Baptism important and normatively necessary? Yes. Can it happen that a person be saved without baptism? Yes it is possible (for example a person who does not know about it or is preparing for it and dies…etc).

Can the Holy Spirit work prior to baptism and in ways we do not even know? Yes. But baptism is very important. In baptism one as Paul notes - dies and is buried with Christ - and rises with him. One is baptized into Christ Jesus.

What did Jesus say at the end of the Gospel of Mark? He said to go and proclaim the good news to all…and those who believe and are baptized will be saved…
What happened there in Acts at Pentecost?

Peter Preached the Gospel - preached Jesus Christ- preached his death and his resurrection - that he is Lord.

The crowd were cut to the heart and asked him…what are we to do?

And what did he reply?

Repent and be baptized - and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

More than 3000 were added that very day to the Church!

Ordinarily it is - faith and repentance and baptism.

(And of course it does not stop there - then of course like Acts - there is the fellowship and learning the teachings…the Eucharist etc etc the whole Christian life - and as Paul notes - walking in newness of life…walking by the Spirit …etc)
TDBlovedbyJC said:
"If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart
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Amen!

Take some time with the following:

"…there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: *“Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” *(Rom 10:10). The *heart *indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.

The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). There is an important meaning contained within this expression. Saint Luke teaches that knowing the content to be believed is not sufficient unless the heart, the authentic sacred space within the person, is opened by grace that allows the eyes to see below the surface and to understand that what has been proclaimed is the word of God.

Confessing with the lips indicates in turn that faith implies public testimony and commitment. A Christian may never think of belief as a private act. Faith is choosing to stand with the Lord so as to live with him. This “standing with him” points towards an understanding of the reasons for believing. Faith, precisely because it is a free act, also demands social responsibility for what one believes. The Church on the day of Pentecost demonstrates with utter clarity this public dimension of believing and proclaiming one’s faith fearlessly to every person. It is the gift of the Holy Spirit that makes us fit for mission and strengthens our witness, making it frank and courageous."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Porta F.) (emph added)

“In the mystery of his death and resurrection, God has revealed in its fullness the Love that saves and calls us to conversion of life through the forgiveness of sins (cf. Acts 5:31). For Saint Paul, this Love ushers us into a new life: “We were buried … with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4). Through faith, this new life shapes the whole of human existence according to the radical new reality of the resurrection. To the extent that he freely cooperates, man’s thoughts and affections, mentality and conduct are slowly purified and transformed, on a journey that is never completely finished in this life. “Faith working through love” (Gal 5:6) becomes a new criterion of understanding and action that changes the whole of man’s life (cf. Rom 12:2; Col 3:9-10; Eph 4:20-29; 2 Cor 5:17).”

~ Pope Benedict XVI
 
Cathoholic said:
TDBlovedbyJC.

I think your answer is a partial truth.

You could say the same thing about “belief in the heart” concerning a profoundly mentally handicapped person.

(Certainly you are not disqualifying such people from salvation are you?)

I think “confessing with your mouth” IS required (for those that CAN).

St. Paul says if I confess with my mouth AND believe in my heart.

And you seem to telling me something different (concerning this verse that you already cited).

ROMANS 10:9 (NIV) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

**
NOT ROMANS 10:9 (phantom verse)** If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” that’s a good thing but it is not absolutely required. But the ONLY requirement is that you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, than you will be saved.

I also believe in my heart that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (but Lazarus certainly isn’t God).

Don’t I have to believe MORE than God raising Jesus from the dead about Jesus? Wouldn’t I have to believe in Jesus as true God AND true man too for example?

Not trying to be contentious here, but the beauty of the Catholic teachings on justification is a FULL Gospel, rather than the whittled down tradition I was taught as a youth in Baptist Sunday school.

I desire a FULL gospel and I think you do too.

Also I think St. Paul asserts believing and continuing to believe and confessing and continuing to confess Jesus.

But you have to look to other verses of his to get that.

In other words, I don’t think Romans 10:9 is meant to be a complete synopsis on salvation.

I read St. Paul and see salvation as a moment followed by a process - a lifelong process.
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.

You missed the point. Believing in your heart is what causes confessing with the mouth. Believing in your heart is present tense and on-going. Living an obedient life, enduring in the faith - these things flow from the heart. When a person believes in their heart, they confess with their mouth. When a person believes in their heart, they live for God. When a person believes in their heart, they are given The Holy Spirit and are regenerated. At bottom, the entire Christian life is merely an issue of the heart. Everything else flows from there.

.
 
sudy said:
I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from with your thread. What do you believe happens when you really and truly believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord yet you are not innocent of sin, what then? I’m thinking specifically of verses like James 2:10-11, 1 John 5:16, Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 5:22, 28-29.

What happens when you sin? How do you wash your robes white again? …or have you managed to keep yourself free from sin since baptism?
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Is there anyone in your life whom you love? If so, what do you do when you realize you have done something that offended them? Do you take responsibility for your actions, apologize, ask forgiveness, and try not to do it again?
 
LatinRight said:
I have two questions, what do you think TDBlovedbyJC?

(Please consider only faith no any other area of Christian life.)

First question:
On the scale of 0% faith to 100% faith, where would you put a mark on that you think,

God would grant us His gift of salvation, 30%, 75%, 100% ?

Second question:
Throughout our Christian life from baptism until we die, how many % of faith do you think,

would title us to believe that we still have God’s gift of salvation, 30%, 75%, 100%?
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.

I disagree with the basic premise of your question. It is not a matter of “%” of faith, but of being filled with The Holy Spirit. It is about a relationship with God. It is about being born-again. Does this happen at a 30% faith, or a 75% faith, or a 100% faith? No, this happens when a person gives their heart to Jesus.

.
 
Bookcat said:
The word that was translated there as “guarantee” is *arrabon *and it refers to a “pledge” or “down payment” of what is to come…a “first installment”.

The Holy Spirit given at baptism etc is yes an arrabon of what is to come …

(such does not mean that the person will not or could not fall away before they receive the “fullness”…one can and thus go against the arrabon of the Paraclete - and against the seal of baptism)
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Look, when it comes to endurance in the faith, we can both agree that the predestined community of the elect will in fact endure. It is impossible for the predestined to fall away from that which God has destined them for. That being said, are there some people who do walk in the Spirit for a while but fall away before the end? Yeah, the Scriptures seem to indicate that is true. But those people were never truly part of the Christian community to begin with. “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”

I agree with the general premise that we should not grow complacent, and that we should continue working out our salvation in fear and trembling up until the day of redemption. However, as long as we tremble in awe and rejoice with love in the face of Christ, as long as we are walking by The Holy Spirit, as long as we are believing in our hearts that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, then we can rest completely assured that we are “in a state of grace” (to use your vocab). As long as we are in this state - and we can know for certain that we are - then we can have absolute assurance that if we die today we will go to Heaven.

The true Christian life is one in which we know that God lives in us. We feel Him. We see Him. We hear Him. We taste Him. When we are walking in His presence, we know that we are in a state of grace. This is revelation from God that is readily available to all who believe in His Son. Those who do not possess this assurance either 1) do not have The Holy Spirit and have never been regenerated, or 2) have never earnestly prayed to God for it.

It is quite baffling to me that a person could be a true Christian and fail to have assurance about The Holy Spirit being inside them. My own conversion involved Jesus working such a dramatic change in my life that it is just a fact of my life that He is at work in me. But for those who have not experienced true conversion - those who have been raised in Christian homes and who have just experienced a gradual acceptance of Christian truths over time - I understand they may not have ever had any such experience. But I wonder how it possible that a person could truly have The Holy Spirit of God living inside them and they not know about it. God is not a tame domestic animal. He is a raging wild fire.

That is why I said I encouraged you to pray and ask God to show you whether you do in fact have The Holy Spirit. I am not asking you to convert from Catholicism. God knows that Catholics do believe in prayer and in The Holy Spirit. I myself and very interested in Catholicism - I just have an extremely difficult time trying to understand how Catholic doctrine reconciles with Scripture.
Bookcat said:
Who said I do know of that I have the Holy Spirit (or rather that he has me!)?

I was given the Holy Spirit at my baptism! And at the laying on of hands a confirmation. And he is active in all the Sacraments - including confession. He dwells within. Christians are* temples of the Holy Spirit*. He comes too in new ways at various times.

One can yes know in many ways the presence and action of the Holy Spirit and his work.

Christians are to walk by the Spirit.
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Serious question=

So you felt The Holy Spirit enter you at baptism … or you believe He was because that it what your doctrine says happened?

Was there significant changes in your way of thinking, in your thoughts and in your emotions, and visible changes in your behavior that resulted from your baptism? Could an external observer look at your life, point to the event of your baptism, and objectively state: "Wow, at this precise point in this man’s life a significant, visible change happened in him. He obviously became more loving, more faithful, more humble, and more concerned with the truths of the gospel. No one can doubt that baptism caused a real change in this man’s nature."

.
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
Look, when it comes to endurance in the faith, we can both agree that the predestined community of the elect will in fact endure. It is impossible for the predestined to fall away from that which God has destined them for.
.
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Not going to get into that very long discussion about “the predestined” …not that much time…🙂
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
Serious question=

So you felt The Holy Spirit enter you at baptism … or you believe He was because that it what your doctrine says happened?

Was there significant changes in your way of thinking, in your thoughts and in your emotions, and visible changes in your behavior that resulted from your baptism? Could an external observer look at your life, point to the event of your baptism, and objectively state: "Wow, at this precise point in this man’s life a significant, visible change happened in him. He obviously became more loving, more faithful, more humble, and more concerned with the truths of the gospel. No one can doubt that baptism caused a real change in this man’s nature."

.
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We walk by* faith* not by sight as Paul notes.

I believe with faith in the* reality* that occurred in my baptism…and I experience it in my Christian life all the time…and ever anew in the Sacrament of confession etc etc.

But I was baptized when I was 10 …in a Protestant community. So I do not have a great deal to report from that age…I do not remember entirely …and it had to later flower if you will.

When I came into full communion with the Catholic Church and when I was confirmed…yes I did experience …and yes there has been great change! And there has been continued great change…

And as St. Paul notes - we need not only to “walk in the Spirit” but also we need too that “renewal of the mind”!
 
Walk in The Holy Spirit and you will have a continual renewing of your mind.

So, you did not experience a filling of The Holy Spirit at your baptism - but you believe that, despite your experience, it actually did happen, because that is what you believe is supposed to happen?

Is that correct?

And do you believe it possible for someone to receive the Spirit of God and not notice it?
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
Yes, walk in The Holy Spirit and you will have a continual renewing of your mind.

So, you did not experience a filling of The Holy Spirit at your baptism - but you believe that, despite your experience, it actually did happen, because that is what you believe is supposed to happen?
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I answered you above
 
(((I have read your posts about what Benedict said but I really do not care for reading those things. I have done much study on my own about what Rome officially teaches and I am not looking for copy and past type info. I want to know about real people. I want to know your personal, authentic experiences. What do you believe, why do you believe it? How has your experience been involved in formulating these beliefs? At times I may ask you if your belief is in accordance with the official teaching of Rome if I have reason to believe that what your saying is contradictory to official RCC doctrine.)))
Bookcat said:
I answered you above
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You did not experience The Holy Spirit in any noticeable way at baptism but you did notice something at confirmation?

Is that our answer?
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
(((I have read your posts about what Benedict said but I really do not care for reading those things. I have done much study on my own about what Rome officially teaches and I am not looking for copy and past type info. I want to know about real people. I want to know your personal, authentic experiences. What do you believe, why do you believe it? How has your experience been involved in formulating these beliefs? At times I may ask you if your belief is in accordance with the official teaching of Rome if I have reason to believe that what your saying is contradictory to official RCC doctrine.)))
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So your not really wanting to know what we believe and open to reading what we believe?

When I provide you readings - you dismiss them as something you do not care about? It is an honest sharing on my part.

If you read them slowly I think they will be interesting for you and I think you might find that some of your ideas of what we believe are not quite correct- if read with an open mind and interest.

I profess the Faith of the Church - that is me - that is what I believe personally!

and my experience is that of joy - of true life in Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Church.

(By the way - please use the term the Catholic Church - not “Rome”. Thanks.)
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TDBlovedbyJC:
You did not experience The Holy Spirit in any noticeable way at baptism but you did notice something at confirmation?

Is that our answer?
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I was 10 years old and in Protestant community at the time…

I do not remember much from that age per se.

As I noted when later came into full communion with the Catholic Church and when I was confirmed…yes I did experience the Holy Spirit …and yes there has been great change! And there has been continued great change…
 
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Bookcat:
Amen!

Take some time with the following:

"…there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent
Click to expand...
. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: *“Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” *(Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.

The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). There is an important meaning contained within this expression. Saint Luke teaches that knowing the content to be believed is not sufficient unless the heart, the authentic sacred space within the person, is opened by grace that allows the eyes to see below the surface and to understand that what has been proclaimed is the word of God.

Confessing with the lips indicates in turn that faith implies public testimony and commitment. A Christian may never think of belief as a private act. Faith is choosing to stand with the Lord so as to live with him. This “standing with him” points towards an understanding of the reasons for believing. Faith, precisely because it is a free act, also demands social responsibility for what one believes. The Church on the day of Pentecost demonstrates with utter clarity this public dimension of believing and proclaiming one’s faith fearlessly to every person. It is the gift of the Holy Spirit that makes us fit for mission and strengthens our witness, making it frank and courageous."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Porta F.) (emph added)
 
TDBlovedbyJC said:
(((I have read your posts about what Pope Benedict said but I really do not care for reading those things.
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Well I ask you to care -for we are having a conversation.

Please read them -not just the posts. Take the time to read the all what linked. They are not long but short. Do not presume you know what is said there -but I invite you to go and see.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)
 
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