Theology in Christianity and Islam

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inJESUS

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Jesus’ peace with all.

I think that many Christians and Muslims are fed up with threads about violence in Quran, the spread of Islam with the sword, Islam is peaceful or not ecc.

My thread is intended to be a purely theological thread.What is to be discussed is only theology, not Muhammad’s morality, nor any book’s “validity”. Copy/paste is not encouraged.

God is One. The concept of Tauhid (Oness of God) is my first topic. Afterwards, we might suggest different concepts but please let’s keep it scholarly, no digressions.

I will start by presenting the Christian concept of Oness and encourage Muslims to share.

Tauhid in Arabic comes from the verb “wahhada”. Wahhada = to unite. When you tell a Muslim “wahhid Allah”, he responds " La Ilaha Illa Allah ( No deity execpt Allah).

Trinity= Tri in Unity= Tawhid of the Father (Allah), His Word, His Spirit.

Christianity, like Islam, believes that God (Allah) is eternal and uncreated. He is One.

Christianity, like Islam, believes that the Word of God is uncreated and eternal.

Since both are monotheistic religions promoting the Oness of God, how do both reconcile the fact that another “entity” is eternal and uncreated beside God?

The Christian position is clear : the Word of God is not God but is not different than God in essence. The Sunni position is the same.

Hence we see that this concept in no way opposes the belief in 1 God. On the contrary, it explains the concept of Oness.

So far we dealt with the :
Father
His Word

Now we are left with the Holy Spirit concept. The Holy Spirit, like the Word of God, is eternal and uncreated. It is the Holy Spirit of God.

Although the Quran is not explicit and does not have abundant teachings/explanations of the Holy Spirit like the OT and NT, we still read a verse that says " do not despair of Allah’s Spirit", which is very similar to our scriptures in the sense that it is about God, not a creature, otherwise it would be shirk (associating partners with God).

Hence we see so far that the concept of Tauhid in Christianity called Tri-Unity, does not oppose the Oness of God but explains it in terms of How God, His Word and His Spirit have always existed as God, before any creation and that creation was done by God, His Word and His Spirit.

What do Muslims think about this concept?
 
If Christians really do believe in monotheism and that God alone is worthy of worship, then the question they need to ask themselves is:

Why is there a need to believe in the Trinity??

I just cannot see how believing in this doctrine can get you even an atom’s width closer to your Creator.

In terms of worshiping God, the Trinity is a totally useless doctrine which does not serve any meaningful purpose at all.

When I ask Christians about it, they answer that the Trinity is a mystery.

Why then do you need to have a mystery in order to worship the Lord?:confused:

Always remember that God is not the author of confusion.

BTW, there is no verse in the Qur’an which says “do not despair of Allah’s Spirit”, rather the verse is:
*
012.087*
**“O my sons! go ye and enquire about Joseph and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah’s Soothing Mercy: truly no one despairs of Allah’s Soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith.” **
 
Here is the transliteration and another translation of the verse in question:

12:87
** yaa baniy-yadh’habuu fa taHas-sasuu miy yuusufa wa akhiyhi wa laa tay-asuu mir rawHil-laah* in-nahuu laa yay-asu mir rawHil-laahi il-lal qawmul kaafiruun:

“O my sons, go and find out about Joseph and his brother and despair not of relief from Allah. Indeed, no one despairs of relief from Allah except the disbelieving people.**”
 
hamba2han said:
Here is the transliteration and another translation of the verse in question:

12:87
** yaa baniy-yadh’habuu fa taHas-sasuu miy yuusufa wa akhiyhi wa laa tay-asuu mir rawHil-laah* in-nahuu laa yay-asu mir rawHil-laahi il-lal qawmul kaafiruun:

“O my sons, go and find out about Joseph and his brother and despair not of relief from Allah. Indeed, no one despairs of relief from Allah except the disbelieving people.**”
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yes i know these Hamba. As you see, each translator uses a different translation, one time saying mercy, other time saying relief, yet other time saying solace and of course, the correct one which is spirit of Allah.

Relief, mercy and solace have specific words. These are attributes of the Spirit, not synonyms of the word spirit,since the spirit of Allah gives strenghth, solace ecc like we find in the Bible:

Like a horse in open country, they did not stumble; like cattle that go down to the plain, they were given rest by the Spirit of the LORD. This is how you guided your people to make for yourself a glorious name." Isaiah 63:11-14

Here is another text:

For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself.

Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for this Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere at the same time means that the Spirit is omnipresent and omnipotents yet only God is omnipresent and omnipotent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely what Yusuf Ali states:

"Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, ‘a spirit from Himself’. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker’s heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365)
 
Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: ‘I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud molded into shape; When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.’" S. 15:28-29

“He Who created all things in the best, and He began the creation of man from clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of despised fluid: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him of His Spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and understanding: little thanks do ye give!” S. 32:7-9

“Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: ‘I am about to create man from clay: When I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.’” S. 38:71-72

These passages say that after fashioning man God gave him life by breathing his Spirit into him, echoing Genesis 2:7. This implies that at least in these contexts the Spirit is God’s life-giving Agent. This being the case, how can the Spirit be Gabriel or any other creature without this implying that God used a finite creature to assist him in the creation of man?

The Bible clearly teaches that:

"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." Psalm 104:30

The Holy Spirit is God.So when we say the Spirit of God is God, we are not associating partners with God.

And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." 21:91

Surely God did not breath an angel into Mary but rather His Spirit is God’s life-giving agent.

If you want to understand better that Trinity is, read this simple sentence:

“**The Spirit of the LORD **spoke through me; **his word **was on my tongue. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: ‘When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God.’” 2 Samuel 23:2-3

Father, Word, Holy Spirit = God of Israel.

All these are from the OT.
 
hamba2han said:
… I just cannot see …
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That’s absolutely right. 👍 hamba2han has raised a good point.

Even we Christians can’t see it. We only know its true because it was revealed via the Bible, and we know the Bible contains truth because it is a story of prophecy (my favorite subject).

In his book, Theology for Beginners, Frank Sheed gives a good explanation of the Trinity. But, he also says that theology did not discover the Trinity (for God has revealed it in the Bible). And theology won’t verify it (for no effort of our mind could make it any surer than God’s own word). But theology is simply to get more light on it and from it.

So, if you don’t believe in the Bible, don’t bother with Christian Theology.
 
inJESUS said:
Jesus’ peace with all.

I think that many Christians and Muslims are fed up with threads about violence in Quran, the spread of Islam with the sword, Islam is peaceful or not ecc.

My thread is intended to be a purely theological thread.What is to be discussed is only theology, not Muhammad’s morality, nor any book’s “validity”. Copy/paste is not encouraged.

God is One. The concept of Tauhid (Oness of God) is my first topic. Afterwards, we might suggest different concepts but please let’s keep it scholarly, no digressions.

I will start by presenting the Christian concept of Oness and encourage Muslims to share.

Tauhid in Arabic comes from the verb “wahhada”. Wahhada = to unite. When you tell a Muslim “wahhid Allah”, he responds " La Ilaha Illa Allah ( No deity execpt Allah).

Trinity= Tri in Unity= Tawhid of the Father (Allah), His Word, His Spirit.

Christianity, like Islam, believes that God (Allah) is eternal and uncreated. He is One.

Christianity, like Islam, believes that the Word of God is uncreated and eternal.

Since both are monotheistic religions promoting the Oness of God, how do both reconcile the fact that another “entity” is eternal and uncreated beside God?

The Christian position is clear : the Word of God is not God but is not different than God in essence. The Sunni position is the same.

Hence we see that this concept in no way opposes the belief in 1 God. On the contrary, it explains the concept of Oness.

So far we dealt with the :
Father
His Word

Now we are left with the Holy Spirit concept. The Holy Spirit, like the Word of God, is eternal and uncreated. It is the Holy Spirit of God.

Although the Quran is not explicit and does not have abundant teachings/explanations of the Holy Spirit like the OT and NT, we still read a verse that says " do not despair of Allah’s Spirit", which is very similar to our scriptures in the sense that it is about God, not a creature, otherwise it would be shirk (associating partners with God).

Hence we see so far that the concept of Tauhid in Christianity called Tri-Unity, does not oppose the Oness of God but explains it in terms of How God, His Word and His Spirit have always existed as God, before any creation and that creation was done by God, His Word and His Spirit.

What do Muslims think about this concept?
Click to expand...
No matter what you you say or how you put what is in your mind, there absolutely no room at all for TRINITY in Islam, b’cause TRINITY is TOTALLY against the Concept of MONOTHEISTIC ETERNAL ONENESS of GOD of Islam and Judaism.
 
Dialogue with Muslims about anything is usually futile. There, I said it.
 
It can be argued that Muhammad, and hence the Muslims, mistook the Holy Spirit to be Gibril.

an-Nahl 16:101
‏16:101 واذا بدلنا اية مكان اية والله اعلم بما ينزل قالوا انما انت مفتر بل اكثرهم لايعلمون
Wa-itha baddalna ayatan makana ayatin waAllahu aAAlamu bima yunazzilu qaloo innama anta muftarin bal aktharuhum la yaAAlamoona

Literal And if We exchanged/replaced/substituted a verse in place (of) a verse , and God is more knowledgeable with what He descends, they said: “But you are a fabricator/cutter and splitter.” Rather most of them do not know.

an-Nahl 16:102
‏16:102 قل نزله روح القدس من ربك بالحق ليثبت الذين امنوا وهدى وبشرى للمسلمين
Qul nazzalahu roohu alqudusi min rabbika bialhaqqi liyuthabbita allatheena amanoo wahudan wabushra lilmuslimeena

Literal Say: “The Holy/Sanctimonious Soul/Sprit descended it from your Lord with the truth to affirm/strengthen those who believed, and guidance, and a good news to the Moslems/submitters/surrenderers.”

an-Nahl 16:103
‏16:103 ولقد نعلم انهم يقولون انما يعلمه بشر لسان الذي يلحدون اليه اعجمي وهذا لسان عربي مبين
Walaqad naAAlamu annahum yaqooloona innama yuAAallimuhu basharun lisanu allathee yulhidoona ilayhi aAAjamiyyun wahatha lisanun AAarabiyyun mubeenun

And We have known that they say: "But/indeed a human teaches/instructs him, (the) tongue/language/speech (of) those who deviate, insult and defame to Him, non-Arabic/Persian (tongue/language/speech), and this (is) an Arabic clear/evident tongue/language/speech.

When the Pagan Meccans accused Muhammad for forgery/plagiarism because he was clearly taught by a non-Arabic mortal, Muhammad retorted that his revelations came via the Holy Spirit.

But since in another verse it is Gibril who sends down the revelations.

al-Baqarah 2:97
‏2:97 قل من كان عدوا لجبريل فانه نزله على قلبك باذن الله مصدقا لما بين يديه وهدى وبشرى للمؤمنين
Qul man kana AAaduwwan lijibreela fa-innahu nazzalahu AAala qalbika bi-ithni Allahi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi wahudan wabushra lilmu/mineena

Say: “Who was an enemy to Gabriel , so that he descended it on your heart/mind with God’s permission, confirming to what (is) between his hands, and (a) guidance and a good news to the believers.”
 
jeg101 said:
No matter what you you say or how you put what is in your mind, there absolutely no room at all for TRINITY in Islam, b’cause TRINITY is TOTALLY against the Concept of MONOTHEISTIC ETERNAL ONENESS of GOD of Islam and Judaism.
Click to expand...
You just dont understand. Trinity is ONE God with three different entities.
 
exoflare said:
Dialogue with Muslims about anything is usually futile. There, I said it.
Click to expand...
Really? I’ve known lots and lots and *lots *of Muslims - in the flesh, not in online forums - and have not often found it to be so.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
It can be argued that Muhammad, and hence the Muslims, mistook the Holy Spirit to be Gibril.

Allow me me to correct you, it can not be and the two are not the same.

an-Nahl 16:102
‏16:102 قل نزله روح القدس من ربك بالحق ليثبت الذين امنوا وهدى وبشرى للمسلمين
Qul nazzalahu roohu alqudusi min rabbika bialhaqqi liyuthabbita allatheena amanoo wahudan wabushra lilmuslimeena

Literal Say: “The Holy/Sanctimonious Soul/Sprit descended it from your Lord with the truth to affirm/strengthen those who believed, and guidance, and a good news to the Moslems/submitters/surrenderers.”

an-Nahl 16:103
‏16:103 ولقد نعلم انهم يقولون انما يعلمه بشر لسان الذي يلحدون اليه اعجمي وهذا لسان عربي مبين
Walaqad naAAlamu annahum yaqooloona innama yuAAallimuhu basharun lisanu allathee yulhidoona ilayhi aAAjamiyyun wahatha lisanun AAarabiyyun mubeenun

And We have known that they say: "But/indeed a human teaches/instructs him, (the) tongue/language/speech (of) those who deviate, insult and defame to Him, non-Arabic/Persian (tongue/language/speech), and this (is) an Arabic clear/evident tongue/language/speech.

Slight clarification, Ajam includes all none arabic speakers, here the reference deals with language and not race.
Click to expand...
 
jeg101 said:
No matter what you you say or how you put what is in your mind, there absolutely no room at all for TRINITY in Islam, b’cause TRINITY is TOTALLY against the Concept of MONOTHEISTIC ETERNAL ONENESS of GOD of Islam and Judaism.
Click to expand...
Hello Jeg…welcome to the forum…i think you are Muslim, right? sorry didn’t check your profile but your answer gave me this impression.

Jeg, someone who has this attitude should neither join a religious forum, nor participate in theological discussion.

Instead of saying no matter how you put it, at least discuss what i put. In this way we can determine things, not by throwing sentence that add nothing to discussions right?

Peace to you.
 
It is good to see new members 🙂 Peace to you AbeOman:wave: . Hope you contribute to the discussion.
 
"Say, he is Allah the one and only. Allah the eternal. He neither gives birth nor is he born. And there is none like him."… Al-Qur’an, Surah Al-Ikhlas

From the verses of this Surah, is there any mystery at all about the most basic nature of the Creator?

"I witness that there is no God but Allah and I witness that Mohammed is his servant and messenger."

From the words of the Shahada, is there any mystery at all about this most basic belief of Islam?

Point is – In Islam, there are NO mysteries that believers need to ponder on in order for them to properly worship their Lord.
 
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