Theology in Christianity and Islam

[inJESUS]

Honestly and sincerely, I do agree with you most of what you saying but once you mention the T word, I get to be careful.

good.

To answer you, yes, I solemnly and in most strongest terms believe that God is uncreated, eternal, however, the word is his and by from him, he said both in the bible and the Quran “sent down our word” or sent our word" or a word from us" etc, otherwise, where the word is coming from? or who’s word is it?

 

[inJESUS]

thank you.

Additionally, Quran ask this question only How could god ahve a son…? and never makes reference to the word.

so we can clearly say that the Quran refutes a physical begetting of God, right? that God does/did not have a wife, as simple as this.

Thought, would like to agree with you but I have small problem in these two versus from the bible.

“Adam, the son of God”
—Luke 3:38

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus”
—Galatians 3:26

Does that mean “son” is same in all cases mentioned in the bible…? what was the original hebrew or aramaic word for “son” but not the Greek translation…?

actually son of God is widely used in the Bible, both OT and NT. After all, we do believe God is a Father.
No the title is not used the same regarding Jesus.

If you read the parable of the wicked tenants, you see the difference between sons of God, and Son of God. The Uniqueness lies in the fact that sons are created, Son (Jesus) is the Unique uncreated Son, the begotten Word of the Father who came through the virgin Mary, breaking the normal physical union beteen man/woman, hence incarnation of the Word and not creation. The Son of God can say : No ones knows the Father except The Son, but a creature cannot utter these words. These are 2 examples to show the difference.

One more thing, this word has been removed from some bibles in recent history, example “John 3:16, New International Version (NIV)” while clearly the word is there in John 3:16 in KJV.

Just would like to share it with you and hope you will be able to help me understand better…

John 3:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Footnotes:

John 3:16 Or his only begotten Son

John 3:16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

what has been removed?

 

[inJESUS]

Thank you. In any case, I brought that subject up in order to demonstrate to inJESUS the impossibility of reconciling the Christian concept of the Trinity with the Islamic doctrine of the Unity (tawhid).
zerinus

actually Zerinus i know what Islam teaches about Jesus.

The aim of this thread is not who is wrong or right, the aim is to discuss what the Oness of God means in both, regardless of whether we believe in x or y.

I can say Muhammad was right when he said ecc ecc. This does not mean i believe he was a prophet.

Likewise, a Muslim can say yes i understand your point of view, but i don’t believe it.

So, unlike your position, my position is understanding, not imposing our theology on others.

 

[AbeOman]

Thank you. In any case, I brought that subject up in order to demonstrate to inJESUS the impossibility of reconciling the Christian concept of the Trinity with the Islamic doctrine of the Unity (tawhid). That premise holds true regardless of whether Mohamed is considered the greatest prophet or not. In either case, Jesus is considered an ordinary man and a great prophet—but nothing more; hence the attributes of “eternalness” and “uncreatedness” cannot be applied to Him. The fact that Jesus is referred to in the Koran as the “Word of God” cannot be used for that purpose. A Moslem theologian would have no choice but to interpret that verse in such a way as to exclude that possibility.

zerinus

You are right, indeed the Quran refer to him as a word but that does not make him equal to God that is what the Quran outlines.

 

[inJESUS]

Muslims think that the Trinity is made up.

actually they are right. The term Trinity is made up (not in the Bible) to explain what is not made up, the Word and Spirit of God (In the Bible).

 

[AbeOman]

actually they are right. The term Trinity is made up (not in the Bible) to explain what is not made up, the Word and Spirit of God (In the Bible).

 

[inJESUS]

actually i was correcting Muslims as well since you say the word Trinity is not in the Bible,which is correct, you falsely assume that the teaching is not in the Bible as well which means you still have to prove that the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit is God or that God’s Word is God.

Likewise, we do not find the word Tauhid in the Quran, but you can easily teach it based on the Quranic teachings.

It’s definately the Greek translation or some error somewhere that the tri-unes sort escaped into the NT

. how can it escape into the NT if it’s not there?

You now what is really quite strange, I believe in our Lord Jesus (PBUH) holistically, I believe the spirit and I believe in God almighty without a shroud of a doubt, but what I can not reconcile is 3 of them being a single entity…?

can you think about the Word of God apart from God? no, yet the Word is not God in position . So you say i believe in One God without going further into the details, but this will not negate the fact that the Word is equal to God yet not God Christians simply elaborate on this.

Anyway, any day and other topic, I will bid you farewell and thanks so much for your patience and understanding, I know it’s neither fair not easy a Muslim like me questioning the fabrics of your faith.

my pleasure all the time

God bless you too.

 

[AbeOman]

actually i was correcting Muslims as well since you say the word Trinity is not in the Bible,which is correct, you falsely assume that the teaching is not in the Bible as well which means you still have to prove that the Bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit is God or that God’s Word is God.

how can it escape into the NT if it’s not there?

Then where it come from…? and why is it applied…?

can you think about the Word of God apart from God? no, yet the Word is not God in position . So you say i believe in One God without going further into the details, but this will not negate the fact that the Word is equal to God yet not God Christians simply elaborate on this.

my pleasure all the time

God bless you too.

 

[AbeOman]

SNIPPED

**Just to clarify more, this is the basic Creed of Islam in a nutshell from the Qur’an:

"Say ye: “We believe in Allah,
And the revelation given to us,
And to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac,
Jacob, and the Tribes,
And that given to Moses and Jesus
And that given to (all)
Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).”
[Qur’an 2:136].

As you can see, no differentiations between prophets and messengers is permitted.**

 

[swariffin]

Honestly and sincerely, I do agree with you most of what you saying but once you mention the T word, I get to be careful.

To answer you, yes, I solemnly and in most strongest terms believe that God is uncreated, eternal, however, the word is his and by from him, he said both in the bible and the Quran “sent down our word” or sent our word" or a word from us" etc, otherwise, where the word is coming from? or who’s word is it?

Can I suggest that if you allow me to limit my references to the NT (the Gospel…Injil) and the Quran since OT (the Book of Moses…Torah) does not accept our Lord Jesus (PBBUH) in any form or shape. can I?

So then explain to me is the spirit and word the same and if so then who they belong to. my apologize in advance this is all new to me so don’t think I’m bit daft by asking these sort of questions.

Thanks

Dear AbeOman,

In response to your question, please also read posting #38 in this thread. Afterall, I must honestly thank you for your constructive discussions. After reading many threads which “compare” Christianity and Islam, this thread has the most constructive, and the coolest discussion I ever read. Thank you also for other contributors, especially to inJesus who started this thread. Let’s keep the discussion alive and well, brothers.

 

[zerinus]

**Just to clarify more, this is the basic Creed of Islam in a nutshell from the Qur’an:

"Say ye: “We believe in Allah,
And the revelation given to us,
And to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac,
Jacob, and the Tribes,
And that given to Moses and Jesus
And that given to (all)
Prophets from their Lord:
We make no difference
Between one and another of them:
And we bow to Allah (in Islam).”
[Qur’an 2:136].

As you can see, no differentiations between prophets and messengers is permitted.**

I think you have misunderstood that. There are several verses in the Koran that are designed to convey the idea that Jesus was nothing more than an ordinary prophet, like any of the other prophets that God raised up in ancient times. His having a privileged position by virtue of being the “Son of God” in an exclusive sense is discounted. This verse is one of those. That is the idea that it is trying to convey. That does not mean that some prophets cannot be regarded as being greater than other prophets in their own right.

zerinus

 

[AbeOman]

Dear AbeOman,

In response to your question, please also read posting #38 in this thread. Afterall, I must honestly thank you for your constructive discussions. After reading many threads which “compare” Christianity and Islam, this thread has the most constructive, and the coolest discussion I ever read. Thank you also for other contributors, especially to inJesus who started this thread. Let’s keep the discussion alive and well, brothers.

**Thanks and that is very kind of you, what said really touched me and made me feel among brothers and friends.

May God almighty reward for the kindness in your heart.

Thanks once again:thumbsup: **

 

[dranzal]

**"And when God said, ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, “Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?”’ **

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Tsk, Tsk, Allah. If you’re going to critique the Christian faith in your “eternal” koran, at least get our “incorrect” doctrines right.

Christians do not now and have NEVER taught or believed that Mary was part of the Trinity. Christians do not now and have NEVER taught or believed that Mary and God the Father had sexual relations!

Surely Allah (all knowing as he is) knows that Christians do not believe or teach these heresies!! IF he is all knowing, why did he get it wrong when critiquing it in the koran???

 

[AbeOman]

I think you have misunderstood that. There are several verses in the Koran that are designed to convey the idea that Jesus was nothing more than an ordinary prophet, like any of the other prophets that God raised up in ancient times. His having a privileged position by virtue of being the “Son of God” in an exclusive sense is discounted. This verse is one of those. That is the idea that it is trying to convey. That does not mean that some prophets cannot be regarded as being greater than other prophets in their own right.

zerinus

**What is an ordinary prophet and is there an extraordinary…? Our lord prophet Jesus (PBUM) has been named in the Quran more than 23 time and while our lord prophet Muhammad has been named in the Quran directly not more than 9 times…?

The position of each prophet is with God and for us Muslims we don’t but one up in pedestal and the other down at the door mat…?

name one verse and for your information which is a point that I’m going to agree with you all prophets and messengers of the almighty named in the quran, God clearly referred them as humble human men who can not do nothing without his support and will. just make the clear distinction between his supreme status and their human status but these are not your ordinary men, these are men who are very close and much loved by God men who’s their earth sinless are washed away and as pure as heaven itself.

these men whom Hollywood should never and would never have made pictures depicting them so shameless and so blasphemously and without any regard to their superior place and standing to all human…in all times till the day of judgement. what a wicked and sinful people they are…I pray to the almighty that anyone who insults anyone these chosen men of God rots in hell and lives life-after a lives in wretched life on this earth.

Sorry praying to god for such a cruel prayer but this really upsets me so much…and there is nothing in my power accepts prayers.

Thanks for response.**

 

[zerinus]

**What is an ordinary prophet and is there an extraordinary…? Our lord prophet Jesus (PBUM) has been named in the Quran more than 23 time and while our lord prophet Muhammad has been named in the Quran directly not more than 9 times…?

The position of each prophet is with God and for us Muslims we don’t but one up in pedestal and the other down at the door mat…?

name one verse and for your information which is a point that I’m going to agree with you all prophets and messengers of the almighty named in the quran, God clearly referred them as humble human men who can not do nothing without his support and will. just make the clear distinction between his supreme status and their human status but these are not your ordinary men, these are men who are very close and much loved by God men who’s their earth sinless are washed away and as pure as heaven itself.

these men whom Hollywood should never and would never have made pictures depicting them so shameless and so blasphemously and without any regard to their superior place and standing to all human…in all times till the day of judgement. what a wicked and sinful people they are…I pray to the almighty that anyone who insults anyone these chosen men of God rots in hell and lives life-after a lives in wretched life on this earth.

Sorry praying to god for such a cruel prayer but this really upsets me so much…and there is nothing in my power accepts prayers.

Thanks for response.**

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your respect for the prophets. I think that is commendable. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the Koran portrays Jesus as a prophet, of the same standing as the other prophets. It does not give Him the privileged position as the Son of God in the exclusive sense that Christianity does. Many of the passages in which Jesus is mentioned in the Koran are designed to convey that idea. That is not correct. Jesus was the Son of God in an exclusive sense, and a divine being. What is taught in the Koran about Jesus is not doctrinally correct.

zerinus

 

[dolphinlove]

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your respect for the prophets. I think that is commendable. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the Koran portrays Jesus as a prophet, of the same standing as the other prophets. It does not give Him the privileged position as the Son of God in the exclusive sense that Christianity does. Many of the passages in which Jesus is mentioned in the Koran are designed to convey that idea. That is not correct. Jesus was the Son of God in an exclusive sense, and a divine being. What is taught in the Koran about Jesus is not doctrinally correct.

zerinus

AbeOman
I will point out to you that zerinus is a mormon, what they believe are quite different to what catholics and other denominations believe, so some of the things he may say, we catholics wont agree with.
Just to let you know.
God bless

 

[zerinus]

AbeOman
I will point out to you that zerinus is a mormon, what they believe are quite different to what catholics and other denominations believe, so some of the things he may say, we catholics wont agree with.
Just to let you know.
God bless

Yes, he is right about that. We believe that early Christianity went into apostasy, and the priesthood keys of the early church was lost. Many doctrines were changed or corrupted. We do not accept the Trinitarian theology of the Godhead that mainstream Christianity, including the Catholic Church, accepts. However, we accept the divinity of Jesus Christ; and that He is the Son of God in an exclusive sense. We believe that the LDS Church is a restoration of the original church that Christ had established, after the original one had gone into apostasy. We also have addition volumes of scripture that they do not acknowledge. We are a latter-day “people of the book” if you like!

zerinus

 

[dolphinlove]

Yes, he is right about that.

Im a girl.

 

[zerinus]

Im a girl.

Sorry, I missed that! You should write that in your profile.

zerinus

 

[AbeOman]

**"And when God said, ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, “Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?”’ **

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Tsk, Tsk, Allah. If you’re going to critique the Christian faith in your “eternal” koran, at least get our “incorrect” doctrines right.

Christians do not now and have NEVER taught or believed that Mary was part of the Trinity. Christians do not now and have NEVER taught or believed that Mary and God the Father had sexual relations!

Surely Allah (all knowing as he is) knows that Christians do not believe or teach these heresies!! IF he is all knowing, why did he get it wrong when critiquing it in the koran???

Ooh my dearest, you misunderstand me so badly and i do apologies if I offend you in any way, the verse in the quran was part of an on going discussion…and i was only proofing that God almighty spoke to Jesus (peace and blessing be upon him), as you can see in my earlier post, if you have read complete,

Let me explain it in details, Jesus’s and his mother our Lady of all women of the world The Virgin Mary (Peace and the blessings of our God Almighty be upon them both) is presented in the Quran in the form of a dialogue with god in the the Day of Judgement as God Almighty talks to all the prophets and messengers each with his nation and people as they all gather before God all praises to him and He will ask the Messengers how they were received by their people and what they said to them. Among those who will be asked is our lord Jesus (PBUH):

"And when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, “Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God”? He said, 'To you be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, you would have known it, knowing what is within my heart, though I do not know your knowledge; you know the things unseen. I only said to them what you did commands me: “Serve God, my God and your God.” (Al-Maida 5-116)

I hope this clarifies the misunderstanding.

you may not know this but our blessed Virgin Mary (Peace upon her) is clearly and so many place in the Quran noted as you can see below what god said about her, **"And remember when the angels said: ‘O Maryam (Mary)! Verily,God has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the world.’ " **
In addition, a whole chapter and one of the most beautiful chapters of the Quran is named after and to honor honor…Surat Maryam or Chapter of Mary, click on the link to watch this video youtube.com/watch?v=M5gqi0Q3UUE
Please read the subtitles in English, I’m not very happy with the images as it’'s considered as a blasphemy since nothing is sacred these day…but at least the lady who is depicting our lady is well presented and looks very modest.
the recital is part of the chapter as it very long…this from versus 16-36.

Just enjoy it, it will show you how beautiful our lady was in her character and piety. I sincerely you and don’t read anything into and be a good Catholic.

I hope you forgive me if get to your goat in any way.

May the lord almighty bless you and your kids and loved family and protect you from all evil be from men or the devil. Amen